Date   

Battery loco operator required

Stuart Thyer
 

Seen in a recent advert. 

"Our client is a key player in the rail industry and they are looking for experienced Shunters/Locomotive Drivers to work in Rail Projects arounds Sydney Metro including the Norwest Rail Link. The assignment requires the successful candidate to be able commence ASAP and is paying $35 per hour. This role will be operating a battery operated locomotive.  The employment process is being managed by Concept Engineering, who appear to be a specialist engineering industry employment agency.

I wonder if the battery locomotive is for any of the underground projects within Sydney, or the north west rail project, perhaps a shunting locomotive at their Rouse Hill depot?

Stuart Thyer


Re: : An introduction and a question

Brian
 

Having a balloon at each sounds good in theory, but you end up with massive wheel wear running in the same direction all the time, its better to run in the opposite direction back and forth to equalize wheel wear.
 
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
 

Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:54 PM
Subject: [LRRSA] Re:: An introduction and a question
 


G'day Steve,

Sounds like you need something like the RFIRT had in Argentina until recently - well, 20 years ago.  750mm gauge, over 250km each way, up to 2000 ton coal trains and steam hauled. Fairly basic track.
https://www.advanced-steam.org/5at/modern-steam/modern-steam-miscellany/rio-turbio-railway/

The problem is finding the equipment - I daresay you'd have no problem finding the crew!  I suspect you'd be inundated by blokes (and a few women) who'd do your driving and firing for the fun of it !

Have loops at each end - no need for a loco front and back. At 30kph you'd do a couple of return trips in the day - problem solved. It's the equipment that's the snag.    Ex- South African 2ft gauge DE's?  or maybe hire some NGG16 Garratts from Sandstone Estate or North Wales?  Qld sugar in their off-season?

cheers   Phil

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: : An introduction and a question

Phil Rickard
 

G'day Steve,

Sounds like you need something like the RFIRT had in Argentina until recently - well, 20 years ago.  750mm gauge, over 250km each way, up to 2000 ton coal trains and steam hauled. Fairly basic track.
https://www.advanced-steam.org/5at/modern-steam/modern-steam-miscellany/rio-turbio-railway/

The problem is finding the equipment - I daresay you'd have no problem finding the crew!  I suspect you'd be inundated by blokes (and a few women) who'd do your driving and firing for the fun of it !

Have loops at each end - no need for a loco front and back. At 30kph you'd do a couple of return trips in the day - problem solved. It's the equipment that's the snag.    Ex- South African 2ft gauge DE's?  or maybe hire some NGG16 Garratts from Sandstone Estate or North Wales?  Qld sugar in their off-season?

cheers   Phil

 


Re: Bundaberg

Tony Smith
 

And using Google Maps and their Street View function, there is any number of points along Tweed Valley Way (the former Pacific Highway) where you can replicate that view of the 44s with the same hills in the background.



From: "Eddie Oliver eoliver@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018, 19:04
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Bundaberg

 

The imagery at https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/ is remarkably complete in displaying the remains of the Condong line (just start at the north end of Murwillumbah yard)







Re: An introduction and a question

Steve O'Dea
 

Brian,

 

You are spot on.  You have stated precisely why we should go with rail.

 

I just need to find someone who can design and build it within an acceptable budget.  I called the Australian Sugar Milling Council last week but the person I needed to speak to was out of the office and has yet to get back to me – I will be following up next week.  Any contacts you can suggest would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Steve

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 3 February 2018 12:01 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Mills do build there own new lines from time to time, there are companies that would do that type of work I can’t remember at the moment there names, what you might want to consider, at the moment Mackay Sugar is converting the original 3’6” gauge line that ran from Mackay out to Marian this line was relayed with I think it was 82lb rail by Queensland Railways, Mackay Sugar was planning to have concrete sleepers made to handle that size rail, normally 2ft. gauge cane lines use second hand 60lb rail which is good for 10t. axle load, by using heavier rail it would allow you to o to 18t.-20t. axle load

In comparison looking at the cost of building 2ft. gauge line as opposed to build a weather proof gravel haul road the cost per kilometre is probably not going to be all that much different, when it comes to maintaining the haul road you would need at least 2 graders working all the tie as well as at least 2 water trucks to keep the dust down as well as to help keep the compaction at a stable level, when it comes to wet weather you may find hauling by road might have to stop or run the risk of doing considerable damage to the haul road, on the other hand a 2ft. gauge line 60klm long you could maintain it with 1 Tamper and 2-3 decent sized ballast hoppers and a small regulator.

I was thinking in hind site perhaps using bottom discharge hoppers might be a better option as this would allow a quicker unloading time and less cost in comparison to setting up a tippler operation, because you are basically running a flat ground all the wagons need not have a braking system, you could control them with the loco braking such as the dynamic braking with the UM6B’s diesel electric locos.

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 12:11 AM

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Brian,

 

Thanks for that insight. The terrain we are dealing with is essentially flat… with a ~40m height variance between the loading end and the unloading end (in the wrong direction naturally).

 

Are there any new tracks planned or under construction in the cane fields or are you just using existing tracks?  If new ones who is doing them?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 7:41 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.

The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.

If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.

A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 





Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 






Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Brian
 

Mills do build there own new lines from time to time, there are companies that would do that type of work I can’t remember at the moment there names, what you might want to consider, at the moment Mackay Sugar is converting the original 3’6” gauge line that ran from Mackay out to Marian this line was relayed with I think it was 82lb rail by Queensland Railways, Mackay Sugar was planning to have concrete sleepers made to handle that size rail, normally 2ft. gauge cane lines use second hand 60lb rail which is good for 10t. axle load, by using heavier rail it would allow you to o to 18t.-20t. axle load
In comparison looking at the cost of building 2ft. gauge line as opposed to build a weather proof gravel haul road the cost per kilometre is probably not going to be all that much different, when it comes to maintaining the haul road you would need at least 2 graders working all the tie as well as at least 2 water trucks to keep the dust down as well as to help keep the compaction at a stable level, when it comes to wet weather you may find hauling by road might have to stop or run the risk of doing considerable damage to the haul road, on the other hand a 2ft. gauge line 60klm long you could maintain it with 1 Tamper and 2-3 decent sized ballast hoppers and a small regulator.
I was thinking in hind site perhaps using bottom discharge hoppers might be a better option as this would allow a quicker unloading time and less cost in comparison to setting up a tippler operation, because you are basically running a flat ground all the wagons need not have a braking system, you could control them with the loco braking such as the dynamic braking with the UM6B’s diesel electric locos.
 
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
 

Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 12:11 AM
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question
 


Brian,

 

Thanks for that insight. The terrain we are dealing with is essentially flat… with a ~40m height variance between the loading end and the unloading end (in the wrong direction naturally).

 

Are there any new tracks planned or under construction in the cane fields or are you just using existing tracks?  If new ones who is doing them?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 7:41 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.

The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.

If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.

A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM

To: LRRSA@...

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

To: LRRSA@...

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 





Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Steve O'Dea
 

Brian,

 

Thanks for that insight. The terrain we are dealing with is essentially flat… with a ~40m height variance between the loading end and the unloading end (in the wrong direction naturally).

 

Are there any new tracks planned or under construction in the cane fields or are you just using existing tracks?  If new ones who is doing them?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 7:41 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.

The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.

If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.

A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 





Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Brian
 

A lot of it comes down to knowing the road and common sense, the main aim is to keep the rake tight so you apply the brakevan before you pull it over a crest while the rake is still stretched that way it just applies an extra load on the loco.
 
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:16 PM
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question
 


How do cane loco drivers determine when to throttle the end-of-train radio controlled loco up or down on undulating  and curving track  without risking a breakaway in the train ?

Similarly how are radio controlled end-of-train brake vehicles controlled.

 

Noel Reed - Sydney.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 10:41 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.

The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.

If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.

A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM

To: LRRSA@...

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

To: LRRSA@...

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 





Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Noel Reed
 

How do cane loco drivers determine when to throttle the end-of-train radio controlled loco up or down on undulating  and curving track  without risking a breakaway in the train ?

Similarly how are radio controlled end-of-train brake vehicles controlled.

 

Noel Reed - Sydney.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 10:41 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.

The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.

If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.

A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm

 

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM

Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 





Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: Bundaberg

Bruce Wood
 

Hi Peter,
 
The photo of the 2 x 44 class back-to-back are more than likely the units off the Gold Coast Motorail Express. Arrival at Murwillumbah at about 11.25 am and departure about 15.25 pm. The units are probably secured during this time.
 
The Motorail commenced operation in March 1973.
 
Cheers
Bruce
 
 
 

From: yahoomail@... [LRRSA]
Sent: 2 February, 2018 6:23 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Bundaberg
 
 

Two from Bundaberg 1967 plus a Tweed question please. My father visited Bundaberg on a work trip in 1967 and spotted a chopper harvester plus a mechanical long stalk loading onto a wagon. Rails under wagons not obvious but could be hidden by the stalks? I am only posting low resolutions and higher resolution available.


The third is from a slide a mate I have not seen for years gave me c1972 and shows 2 x 44 class NSWGR plus a guards can on the **maybe **Condong line which is the location on which I would like confirmation please? Could the background be sugar? If so than maybe Condong as I don't know of any other possible location with sugar. If wheat or corn etc, than the possibilities are endless. The 1968 WTT availability list for the Condong extension included the mainline 44 class diesel electric locomotive. Bulk sugar was trucked to CSR refinery in New Farm Brisbane by the 44 class era as I have a 1956 image of that but Condong had molasses tank loaders so maybe molasses?


Cane loader 1967 Bundaberg    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lnzzsVm_MXdJ8MkTQ0crBnoBO38qLWfx/view 


Cane harvester 1967 Bundaberg https://drive.g oogle.com/file/d/1_LGAfb50fSnLRR6LuKIYdWm4vN-UPyXn/view

 

2 x 44 class maybe Tweed Condong    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xUFCt85Kxeowk0jqwcbG6UggyuG6BGFP/view 

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

 


Re: An introduction and a question

Brian
 

Steve,
I drive cane loco’s for a living it varies from mill to mill, most the 40t. locos as in Eimco’s or converted Walkers DH’s haul anything from 1000t. to 1500t. on average terrain, the best set-up would be push pull or having a loco at each end operated by one driver the alternate loco operating under remote radio control, that way you equalize the wheel wear factor, you will still need loops at each end more so for cutting out shop wagons should any wagon have a problem.
The comparison of road transport to rail, obviously there is probably a greater cost to build the track in the first place, but the ongoing maintenance cost is less then maintaining a road especially a gravel haul road, trucks will wear out tyres much sooner then rail wheels needing re-machining and eventual replacement.
If you base a comparison on the diesel electric loco’s I suggested those loco’s would burn around 1.5 litres of diesel per kilometre hauling 1000t. load and less on the return empty, on average terrain.
A truck by comparison  hauling around 50t.to 100t. per trip might burn around 2 litre per 5klm
 
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
 

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question
 


Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

To: LRRSA@...

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Steve O'Dea
 

Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for that feedback.  I need all the help I can get on both construction and operational issues!

 

If pushing back isn’t viable would an option of two engines (one at either end) resolve that or is it just better to suck up the initial capital and put a loop in each end?

 

I’m looking at 5,000 tonnes of ore per day on a six days per week haulage and one day of maintenance.  A train hauling 1,000t would have to make five round trips (some sugar cane trains haul 1,000 tonnes) and anything more would be a bonus in reducing the number of trips.

 

Budget is simple – capital plus operating cost must be materially less than off highway road haulage.   Additionally the capital cost must be significantly less than the cost of moving the processing plant 60km (another valid alternative).

 

Budget estimate for road construction is $20M, operating cost is ~$12M per year (including road maintenance), mine life 10 – 15 years.  So total cost of ~$140M to $200M over ten to fifteen years.  We need to use the worst case – ten years – so work on a budget of $140M.

 

Can a light rail system be constructed for less than $50M (rail/signalling/unloading – engines and wagons not included as they will be covered by the operating cost in the same way the trucks are) or $1M/km?  If not why not (what are the key costs taking it over that figure) and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 4:48 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

Steve,

It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.

They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-

They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation

See photos here:-

Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.

 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM

Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 




Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Eddie Oliver
 

On 2/02/2018 19:32, 'Steve O'Dea' natsteve@... [LRRSA] wrote:
 

The project has a 10 - 15 year projected life so engineering for a +30years as is typical for rail systems will over-capitalise the concept and kill it.  I was thinking along the lines of the sugar cane railways in North Queensland or the timber railways in SW WA.  These are usually 2’ gauge systems.


4000-plus tonnes per day plus the weight of the locomotives and vehicles (in both directions) needs a pretty substantial construction standard to survive a week, let alone 15 years.

Axleload is a key  consideration.



Re: An introduction and a question

Brian
 

Steve,
It really comes down to what sort of budget you have, but running 60klm. and then pushing all the way back isn’t a viable option., allowing for the size train you would need to haul 4000t. of ore daily.
They have several Diesel electric 3ft. gauge locos for sale in South Africa UM6B General Electric see photos here:-
They also have a couple of hundred ‘C’ class wagons which were formerly use to haul Limestone and were designed for tipple dump operation
See photos here:-
Brian
Rawbelle County Workshops
Qld. Aust.
 

Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2018 11:53 PM
Subject: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question
 


Hi LRRSA,

 

I’m a mining engineer and was taught about rail systems at uni… used them underground in a few old mines (and one new one)… was fascinated by the ABT railway on the west coast of Tasmania… and am increasingly looking at historic as well as current systems to find the most appropriate solution to a given project.  

 

I am currently working on a mining project in WA where we need to haul a modest amount of ore a modest distance (one and a half million tonnes per annum just under 60km of essentially flat terrain).  Naturally the standard answer to this is off highway trucks (either road trains or haul trucks) running on a dedicated haul road.

 

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage question should be “a light rail system” – specifically it should be low cost, low speed, simple (no turning – tram one way then reverse back) and efficient.  Until finding this forum I had not, however, been able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic.  I have spoken to a couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and costing a large fortune to construct.  Is there someone on here who can advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

 

Rail used to be here… the foundation and ballast is still in place in many places and could potentially be utilised in the new system.

 

Look forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

Many thanks,

Steve

0400 848 128

 

 

 


Virus-free. www.avg.com


Re: An introduction and a question

Steve O'Dea
 

That is a good question.  I don’t know what is reasonable or challenging for a light rail system and I also neglected to answer the previous question of anticipated operational lifespan.

 

The project has a 10 - 15 year projected life so engineering for a +30years as is typical for rail systems will over-capitalise the concept and kill it.  I was thinking along the lines of the sugar cane railways in North Queensland or the timber railways in SW WA.  These are usually 2’ gauge systems.

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 2 February 2018 9:35 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] An introduction and a question

 

 

On 02.02.2018 00:53, 'Steve O'Dea' natsteve@... [LRRSA]
wrote:

> This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage
> question should be "a light rail system" - specifically it should be
> low cost, low speed, simple (no turning - tram one way then reverse
> back) and efficient. Until finding this forum I had not, however, been
> able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic. I have spoken to a
> couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about
> traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and
> costing a large fortune to construct. Is there someone on here who can
> advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?

4000 tonnes per day and associated empty movements over 60 km may be a
challenge for any 'light' system. Are you basically thinking of trucks
on rails?


Re: Bundaberg

Eddie Oliver
 


The third is from a slide a mate I have not seen for years gave me c1972 and shows 2 x 44 class NSWGR plus a guards can on the **maybe **Condong line which is the location on which I would like confirmation please? Could the background be sugar? If so than maybe Condong as I don't know of any other possible location with sugar. If wheat or corn etc, than the possibilities are endless. The  1968 WTT availability list for the Condong extension included the mainline 44 class diesel electric locomotive. Bulk sugar was trucked to CSR refinery in New Farm Brisbane by the 44 class era


The imagery at https://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/ is remarkably complete in displaying the remains of the Condong line (just start at the north end of Murwillumbah yard)





Bundaberg

Petan
 

Two from Bundaberg 1967 plus a Tweed question please. My father visited Bundaberg  on a work trip in 1967 and spotted a chopper harvester plus a mechanical long stalk loading onto a wagon. Rails under wagons not obvious but could be hidden by the stalks? I am only posting low resolutions and higher resolution available.


The third is from a slide a mate I have not seen for years gave me c1972 and shows 2 x 44 class NSWGR plus a guards can on the **maybe **Condong line which is the location on which I would like confirmation please? Could the background be sugar? If so than maybe Condong as I don't know of any other possible location with sugar. If wheat or corn etc, than the possibilities are endless. The  1968 WTT availability list for the Condong extension included the mainline 44 class diesel electric locomotive. Bulk sugar was trucked to CSR refinery in New Farm Brisbane by the 44 class era as I have a 1956 image of that but Condong had molasses tank loaders so maybe molasses? 


Cane loader 1967 Bundaberg    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lnzzsVm_MXdJ8MkTQ0crBnoBO38qLWfx/view 


Cane harvester 1967 Bundaberg https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_LGAfb50fSnLRR6LuKIYdWm4vN-UPyXn/view


2 x 44 class maybe Tweed Condong    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xUFCt85Kxeowk0jqwcbG6UggyuG6BGFP/view 


Cheers

Peter Cokley




Re: : An introduction and a question

Philip G Graham
 

My first thought was where would you obtain this type of equipment without the considerable financial outlay of building new gear from scratch?

I guess a lot would hinge on the life of project, value of the items mined, and so on.

In recent times I have been doing research into the rail equipment and locomotives that have been used with Tunnel Boring Machines. Currently there is not much of this equipment remaining in this country from recent projects, the equipment usually being imported, used and then re-exported during the relatively short lives of these types of projects. But a lot of the mucking out wagons would probably also suit use outside of tunnels in the great outdoors. There is a good range of mining and tunneling locomotives of various powers.

It may require importing second-hand, refurbished equipment from overseas. I have at least one company in mind that could offer this equipment, and I have no doubt that they would be willing to come up with investigations and quotations.

Happy to pass on the info.

-PGG- Tasmania


Re: Richmond River tram 1890

John Browning
 

Mount Galena – Deepwater Tramway

“like many another mining project, the great venture ended with a survey of the route.”

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article178273063

 

John

 


Re: An introduction and a question

Eddie Oliver
 

On 02.02.2018 00:53, 'Steve O'Dea' natsteve@... [LRRSA] wrote:

This brings me to a question on light rail; the answer to the haulage
question should be "a light rail system" - specifically it should be
low cost, low speed, simple (no turning - tram one way then reverse
back) and efficient. Until finding this forum I had not, however, been
able to find anyone knowledgeable on this topic. I have spoken to a
couple of railway engineering companies but they can only think about
traditional railways designed and engineered to last forever and
costing a large fortune to construct. Is there someone on here who can
advise on a simple and inexpensive light rail system?
4000 tonnes per day and associated empty movements over 60 km may be a challenge for any 'light' system. Are you basically thinking of trucks on rails?