Date   

Re: : Re: Balls Head

Rod Hutchinson
 

What is a dock then?

Rod Hutchinson
Mooroolbark
Australia

On 29 Feb 2016 7:47 pm, "mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike


Re: : Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike



Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike


Balls Head

Iain
 

How do we account for “finger wharfs” (eg Walsh Bay) which are surely either piers or jetties??

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Iain_Stuart@...

 


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 28/02/2016 22:35, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] wrote:
I guess that's American English. I have never heard of any Australian breakwater called either a pier or a jetty.

I'm not so sure. I think it was quite common when I was young for 'jetty' to be used for rock constructions that jutted out into water and had flat tops that could be walked on. [The word 'jut' may come from the same root as well.] They were arguably mini-breakwaters, so that perhaps there is another line of enquiry as to how big such a structure has to be in order to be called a breakwater.

http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/bays-rivers-and-ports/port-phillip/things-to-do/piers-and-jetties
provides an interesting array of objects variously known as piers and jetties, and breakwaters are also mentioned - perhaps someone could analyse the differences (if any) between those piers and jetties.

I hope that the good residents of Long Jetty on the central coast of NSW are not going to be compelled to change the name to Long Pier.


Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

I guess that's American English. I have never heard of any Australian breakwater called either a pier or a jetty.

John

On 28 February 2016 at 22:32, Eddie Oliver eoliver@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 28/02/2016 21:41, Greg Stephenson greg.stephenson@... [LRRSA] wrote:

I always think about a jetty heading out at right angles to the shore

which is consistent with the word being derived from the same base as the French word jeter, which means to throw - so the jetty throws away from the shore.

 
The use of the terms jetty, wharf and pier seem to be pretty interchangable with newspaper writers so searching all terms is recommended in resources like Trove.


indeed. I disagree with the message that started this thread, which asserted a 'pedantic' difference (implying non-overlap) between pier and jetty. I suggest that in fact they at least overlap even if they are not completely interchangeable. Something can simultaneously be a pier and a jetty.


Re: Balls Head

Greg Stephenson <greg.stephenson@...>
 


It appears our peers are peering at the pier on top of the pier.  No wonder people get confused with English.
 
I always think about a jetty heading out at right angles to the shore and a wharf being parallel to the shore with a pier used for more gentlemanly pursuits like promanading or amusement arcades.
 
The use of the terms jetty, wharf and pier seem to be pretty interchangable with newspaper writers so searching all terms is recommended in resources like Trove.
 
Greg Stephenson
Brisbane, Australia


Re: Balls Head

Noel Reed
 

Hi Eddie,

 

How do we describe a difference between Manly (ferry) Wharf  and the earlier Amusement Pier alongside where people could look into coin operated machines and wind a handle to find out  “What the Butler saw”.  In Britain, there were many very long Amusement Piers. Some of them have even had electric light railways to save patrons a long walk.

 

To further cloud the subject, many of Sydney’s harbour-side ferry wharfs including some which were served by electric light railways are floating pontoons.  Some places where ships are moored are ‘Landing Stages’

 

The original bridge across Hobart’s Derwent River was built on twelve floating pontoons.

 

In Liverpool UK the destination of most of the former tram routes was ’Pier Head’

 

Noel Reed. (Pedant)---Traveller on Route 6A in Liverpool’s ‘Last Tram’ parade which like the last trams in Sydney in 1961 was held on an afternoon in 1957.

By 1957, the once-great Liverpool tramway system had been reduced to just two routes, the 6A to Bowring Park and the 40 to Page Moss Avenue. These routes finally closed in September. All was in a run-down and dilapidated condition, sad to see. Here is a 'Baby Grand' 4-wheel tram on the Bowring Park route.

 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 27 February 2016 12:15 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Balls Head

 

 

 

On 27/02/2016 10:56, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@... [LRRSA] wrote:

It should be noted – more as a point of interest, that the distinction between piers and jetties according to the The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea  is that piers are constructed on piles – hence what we have been calling jetties are in fact piers. An interesting point for pedants


The Oxford Companion may say that, but the Oxford Dictionary gives one meaning of jetty as 'small pier'...  Perhaps the Companion and the Dictionary employ different pedants.

Definition of jetty in English:

noun (plural jetties)

1A landing stage or small pier at which boats can dock or be moored:Ben jumped ashore and tied the rowboat up to the small wooden jetty

MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES

1.1A bridge or staircase used by passengers boarding an aircraft:aircraft will not be connected to passenger jetties during maintenance

MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES

1.2A breakwater constructed to protect or defend a harbour, stretch of coast, or riverbank:engineers constructed jetties in the river to control erosion


Posted by: Eddie Oliver



Re: Cuts to the National Library, Trove

Geoff Potter <potgeoff@...>
 

Iain,

here is quite a good article on the budget cuts and how they affect the National Library


With regard to TROVE, and this tallies with my understanding, the digital newspapers will probably not be affected. There has just been a substantial upgrade to the newspaper interface by the way). What will it seems be affected will be the harvesting of images and information from universities and museums in other parts of TROVE, for example the picture search. This will perhaps have a slightly lower impact on LRRSA researchers, but is still not good for overall research.

Budget cuts to Libraries in UK have lead to the decimation of many library services. 

In recent years the State Library of NSW has lost around 30 staff, with several hundred years of collection experience now gone. True, the government threw quite a lot of money for digitisation at the Library to provide access to many previously unseen items, but Libraries need a combination of skilled librarians AND more resources to create access. 

As for how to protest, an online petition might help The world’s platform for change

along with emailing the Prime Minister's office en masse

As all Government departments have been hit with budget cuts (except I guess for Defence) I am not sure whether any traction will be gained to halt cuts to the Library,
best regards
Geoffrey Potter
Public Librarian


On Sunday, 28 February 2016, 8:56, "'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@... [LRRSA]" wrote:


 
I am surprised that the proposed cuts to the National library – which among other things will impact Trove, have not been discussed in this group.
 
Clearly this will impact a large number of our members and the Society as a whole.
 
I was wondering what action would be fruitful.  I suppose we won’t convince them to cancel a submarine as they are known to be so effective against IS but I think we should raise a voice of protects at least.
 
Cheers
 
Dr Iain Stuart
 
JCIS Consultants
P.O. Box 2397
Burwood North
NSW 2134
Australia
 
(02) 97010191
Iain_Stuart@...
 



Cuts to the National Library, Trove

Iain
 

I am surprised that the proposed cuts to the National library – which among other things will impact Trove, have not been discussed in this group.

 

Clearly this will impact a large number of our members and the Society as a whole.

 

I was wondering what action would be fruitful.  I suppose we won’t convince them to cancel a submarine as they are known to be so effective against IS but I think we should raise a voice of protects at least.

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Iain_Stuart@...

 


Re: Balls Head

John Browning
 

Pier / Jetty

 

The distinction given is that found in UK English

 

The usage is quite different in Australian English.

 

John


Re: : Balls Head coal loader

B.Rumary
 

On 25/02/2016 21:22, 'Hunslet' hunslet@... [LRRSA] wrote:
The Ball’s Head plant was like a petrol station.   It received the coal from Newcastle into temporary storage, and then onsold it to coal-fired ships requiring fuel. 

This was known as "bunkering".

-- 
Brian Rumary
England
brian(at)rumary.co.uk


Re: : Balls Head coal loader

Tom Jessop
 

 The present jetty  has  concrete  piers ,the older  one  had timber &  more of them. The present jetty is on the same alignment at the previous .  The timber abutments  just north of the surf club parking area are from the rail track . Check out  Brian Andrews book of  Coal , Railways & Mines  Vol 2. for more info on the Wallarah  mine .


   Cheers  Tom J.


From: "'Chris Stratton' gm4201@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Saturday, 27 February 2016, 9:30
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 
I visited Catherine Hill Bay in Nov 2014 and there is still a jetty there though barricaded off and unused. There were remains of a timber trestle beside the road near the beach.
 
Regards,
CS
 
From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 9:13 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader
 



I once visited Catherine Hill Bay when the isolated railway was still in operation.  The coal loading jetty was a tall spindly structure. 
 
How were the locomotives and coal hopper wagons moved to this location.  A predecessor of  Mario’s ‘Australian Train Movers’    ?
Noel Reed. .
 
From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 8:30 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader
 
 
Thank You  for extra info in Trolley Wire , fills in a lot of gaps from my childhood when I was about 8 years old . I was taken to Wallarah  colliery one  weekend to see salvage efforts when  a 60 miler  ran agound on the sand bar  when it was being turned to finish loading , had a tour  thru the above ground workings & partially down the adit  , all great fun  for a  pre teen  boy
The family used to visit Newcastle some  school holidays  for my father to audit  some of the different colliery books   which were in the JABAS  group . I was usually taken out to Richmond  Main or Pelaw Main collierys  on a engine with return by company car later  in the day  . Heady  things  for a  youngster .
 
  Cheers  Tom J.

From: "'Hunslet' hunslet@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 14:37
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader
 
 
Further to my previous posting on the subject, a very comprehensive article appeared in the December 1975 issue of “Trolley Wire” magazine, journal of Australian transport Magazines.   The 11 page article, written by the late Ken McCarthy, includes numerous b&w illustrations and detail drawings.   A sequel report of two pages covering the cessation of rail operations, appeared in the June 1976 issue.
Hunslet
 
From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 1:18 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader
 
 
 
 
  A very good read giving the history of the site . I can remember dad showing me some of the ledgers  with different ships names on them  & the tonnage  loaded .There were a few old tipper trucks  on site  which were used for coal cartage  to hospitals  for boiler usage , foundries & various other small users of coal . The 60 milers would do a full turn round in 24 hrs for memory   & the company had 2 vessels , The Stephen Brown & the Wallarah which were in full time usage in the 50's& 60's . Both ships also delivered coal to the Nth Shore gas works in Oyster Bay for  conversion to coke & gas to homes & factories on the Nth Shore .  The Wallarah  was a steam powered vessel & Stephen Brown  was diesel .  Berry's  island  was a ship breaking yard  with  old hulks left to rot after the valuable parts were salvaged .
 
 
Cheers   Tom J .
 

From: "mailto:jmullier@...%20[LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 12:13
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader
 
 
 
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Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 


On 27/02/2016 10:56, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@... [LRRSA] wrote:
It should be noted – more as a point of interest, that the distinction between piers and jetties according to the The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea  is that piers are constructed on piles – hence what we have been calling jetties are in fact piers. An interesting point for pedants

The Oxford Companion may say that, but the Oxford Dictionary gives one meaning of jetty as 'small pier'...  Perhaps the Companion and the Dictionary employ different pedants.

jetty Line breaks: jetty
Pronunciation: /ˈdʒɛti/ 

Definition of jetty in English:

noun (plural jetties)

1A landing stage or small pier at which boats can dock or be moored:Ben jumped ashore and tied the rowboat up to the small wooden jetty
1.1A bridge or staircase used by passengers boarding an aircraft:aircraft will not be connected to passenger jetties during maintenance
1.2A breakwater constructed to protect or defend a harbour, stretch of coast, or riverbank:engineers constructed jetties in the river to control erosion


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 27/02/2016 10:56, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@... [LRRSA] wrote:
It should be noted � more as a point of interest, that the distinction between piers and jetties according to the The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea �is that piers are constructed on piles � hence what we have been calling jetties are in fact piers. An interesting point for pedants.

So what are jetties constructed on?

A quick google search using "pier jetty difference" appears to give multiple interpretations.



Balls Head

Iain
 

The articles by Ken McCarthy in Trolley Wire are excellent and are highly recommended. Brian Andrews has quite a bit on Balls Head and Catherine Hill Bay in Coal Railways and Mines Vol 2 as they were both owned by the Wallarah company.

 

My understanding is that Balls Head was originally a specialist facility for bunkering ships and the systems installed were based on similar systems for coal bunkering in the USA. It was only later in its career (when there were less steamships) that it was used as an export loader – possibly as late as the 1960s and 1970s. The pier at Balls Head is in very poor condition.

 

I have undertaken extensive inspections of the CHB pier. The original pier was replaced several time the last being in 1975 after it was damaged in a storm. The new modern structure is fairly solid and built in modern materials and connected the large concrete coal bunker directly to the shiploader. The recent fires destroyed the remains of the wooden structure connection to the modern pier which I thought dated to the 1880s although the fabric would have been more recent due to maintenance.

 

It should be noted – more as a point of interest, that the distinction between piers and jetties according to the The Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea  is that piers are constructed on piles – hence what we have been calling jetties are in fact piers. An interesting point for pedants.

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Iain_Stuart@...

 


Re: : Balls Head coal loader

Chris Stratton
 

I visited Catherine Hill Bay in Nov 2014 and there is still a jetty there though barricaded off and unused. There were remains of a timber trestle beside the road near the beach.

 

Regards,

CS

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 9:13 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 




I once visited Catherine Hill Bay when the isolated railway was still in operation.  The coal loading jetty was a tall spindly structure. 

 

How were the locomotives and coal hopper wagons moved to this location.  A predecessor of  Mario’s ‘Australian Train Movers’    ?

Noel Reed. .

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 8:30 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

Thank You  for extra info in Trolley Wire , fills in a lot of gaps from my childhood when I was about 8 years old . I was taken to Wallarah  colliery one  weekend to see salvage efforts when  a 60 miler  ran agound on the sand bar  when it was being turned to finish loading , had a tour  thru the above ground workings & partially down the adit  , all great fun  for a  pre teen  boy

The family used to visit Newcastle some  school holidays  for my father to audit  some of the different colliery books   which were in the JABAS  group . I was usually taken out to Richmond  Main or Pelaw Main collierys  on a engine with return by company car later  in the day  . Heady  things  for a  youngster .

 

  Cheers  Tom J.


From: "'Hunslet' hunslet@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 14:37
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

Further to my previous posting on the subject, a very comprehensive article appeared in the December 1975 issue of “Trolley Wire” magazine, journal of Australian transport Magazines.   The 11 page article, written by the late Ken McCarthy, includes numerous b&w illustrations and detail drawings.   A sequel report of two pages covering the cessation of rail operations, appeared in the June 1976 issue.

Hunslet

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 1:18 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

 

 

  A very good read giving the history of the site . I can remember dad showing me some of the ledgers  with different ships names on them  & the tonnage  loaded .There were a few old tipper trucks  on site  which were used for coal cartage  to hospitals  for boiler usage , foundries & various other small users of coal . The 60 milers would do a full turn round in 24 hrs for memory   & the company had 2 vessels , The Stephen Brown & the Wallarah which were in full time usage in the 50's& 60's . Both ships also delivered coal to the Nth Shore gas works in Oyster Bay for  conversion to coke & gas to homes & factories on the Nth Shore .  The Wallarah  was a steam powered vessel & Stephen Brown  was diesel .  Berry's  island  was a ship breaking yard  with  old hulks left to rot after the valuable parts were salvaged .

 

 

Cheers   Tom J .

 


From: "mailto:jmullier@...%20[LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 12:13
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

 

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Re: : Balls Head coal loader

Noel Reed
 

I once visited Catherine Hill Bay when the isolated railway was still in operation.  The coal loading jetty was a tall spindly structure. 

 

How were the locomotives and coal hopper wagons moved to this location.  A predecessor of  Mario’s ‘Australian Train Movers’    ?

Noel Reed. .

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 8:30 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

Thank You  for extra info in Trolley Wire , fills in a lot of gaps from my childhood when I was about 8 years old . I was taken to Wallarah  colliery one  weekend to see salvage efforts when  a 60 miler  ran agound on the sand bar  when it was being turned to finish loading , had a tour  thru the above ground workings & partially down the adit  , all great fun  for a  pre teen  boy

The family used to visit Newcastle some  school holidays  for my father to audit  some of the different colliery books   which were in the JABAS  group . I was usually taken out to Richmond  Main or Pelaw Main collierys  on a engine with return by company car later  in the day  . Heady  things  for a  youngster .

 

  Cheers  Tom J.


From: "'Hunslet' hunslet@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 14:37
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

Further to my previous posting on the subject, a very comprehensive article appeared in the December 1975 issue of “Trolley Wire” magazine, journal of Australian transport Magazines.   The 11 page article, written by the late Ken McCarthy, includes numerous b&w illustrations and detail drawings.   A sequel report of two pages covering the cessation of rail operations, appeared in the June 1976 issue.

Hunslet

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016 1:18 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

 

 

  A very good read giving the history of the site . I can remember dad showing me some of the ledgers  with different ships names on them  & the tonnage  loaded .There were a few old tipper trucks  on site  which were used for coal cartage  to hospitals  for boiler usage , foundries & various other small users of coal . The 60 milers would do a full turn round in 24 hrs for memory   & the company had 2 vessels , The Stephen Brown & the Wallarah which were in full time usage in the 50's& 60's . Both ships also delivered coal to the Nth Shore gas works in Oyster Bay for  conversion to coke & gas to homes & factories on the Nth Shore .  The Wallarah  was a steam powered vessel & Stephen Brown  was diesel .  Berry's  island  was a ship breaking yard  with  old hulks left to rot after the valuable parts were salvaged .

 

 

Cheers   Tom J .

 


From: "mailto:jmullier@...%20[LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Friday, 26 February 2016, 12:13
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re:: Balls Head coal loader

 

 

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7442 / Virus Database: 4537/11695 - Release Date: 02/25/16

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