Date   

Re: : Advert of the Week - Further Notes / Information

atev40@...
 

All,

 

I've detailed below various notes / information (and sources) relating to HC271 in particular, but also a little more relating to Mt. Lyell locomotives in general. I hope this adds constructively to the debate on this advert.

 

Firstly, Ron Redman's book on HC  (The Railway Foundry, Leeds) gives the following information for HC271:-

Customer: Tasmanian Government Railways

Type: 0-6-0T

Cylinders: OC 9 x 15

Wheels: 2' 6"

Gauge: 3' 6"

Date Ex-works: 1/11/1884

Number: No: 7B

 

 

I then checked the HC Works List (by Clive Hardy), which gave significantly different information, which I won't repeat here to prevent confusion.

 

 

Fortunately, in Ron Redman's book 'A Pictorial Album Of HC NG Locomotives', on p. 12 is a photograph of HC271, to which the following text applies:-

A 'one off' design built 1884, works number 271, Tasmanian Government Railway No: 7B, a 3' 6" gauge 0-6-0 tank with 9" x 5" (sic, presumably a typo for 15") cylinders.

By its size we must assume this modest machine, recorded as only weighing 15 ton 3 cwt gross when it left Leeds for the docks, was intended for railway construction work.

Its subsequent history is mainly on this form of employment, on the Mount Lyall (sic) Mining & Railway Co., as their No: 1 in 1895. It was named CARBINE and, after a stint with Tasmanian Hardwoods Ltd., in the early years of this century it travelled to South Australia, passed through the hands of Smith & Timms contractors, and ended its days in the 1920's with the Wallaroo Phosphate Co., to be finally scrapped in 1927.

 

I've scanned the photograph from the book (at 300 dpi), and uploaded it into an Album named 'Hudswell Locomotives'.

 

 

I also have a note taken from the 'Steam Locomotives And Technologies' Yahoo Group (at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/steam_tech/conversations/topics/12628 and message history [by Geoff Lambert, David Flecker]) noting:-

 

Mount Lyell, 3'6'' gauge

 

Baldwin 7111/1884 0-4-0 ST contractors engine returned to Victoria 1895

1. "Carbine' Hudswell Clarke 271/1884 0-6-0 ST sold 1902 (named after the 1890 winner of the Melbourne Cup)

2. "Malvolio" Sharpe Stewart 2030/1870 0-4-0 T sold 1923 (Malvolio was the 1891 winner of the Melbourne Cup)

3. Baldwin 15174/1897 0-6-0ST withdrawn 1919

4. Baldwin 151815/1898 0-6-0ST withdrawn 1919

5. Baldwin 151816/1898 0-6-0ST withdrawn 1919

6. NZGR 92/1909 2-6-4T Purchased 1951, scrapped 1959 ex TGR DS-4

7. NZGR 61/1909 2-6-4T Purchased 1951, scrapped 1959 ex TGR DS-1

 

 

There are clearly some typos in this list (e.g. the HC is definitely an 0-6-0T, and Tony notes the SS as an 0-6-0ST). Hence, as the original advert is dated 1896 and specifically states "6 wheel-coupled saddle tank", I'd suggest the SS is the more viable candidate for the advert.

 

Best regards,

 

Martin

 

 

Martin Best

 


Re: : Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

David Axup
 

Great photos.  Thank you.

 

David R Axup

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Thursday, 9 October 2014 8:57 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: : Re: [LRRSA] Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

 

 

BTW, I've had a go at making a video too. This is a first for me so feedback is welcome.

 

This can be seen here:

 

I've tried to take the viewer of a journey on the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway in Porthmadog.

 

See what you think.

 

Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt


 

 

In a message dated 08/10/2014 22:50:54 GMT Daylight Time, LRRSA@... writes:

 

Michael

 

Thank you for sharing those fantastic photos. I have often read about this railway and your photos bought it to life for me.

 

Regards

Alf


Re: : Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

Michael C.
 

If you're a fan of the Ravenglass & Eskdale, I have another album from last year here:
 
 
Cheers,
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt
 
 
 

In a message dated 08/10/2014 22:50:54 GMT Daylight Time, LRRSA@... writes:
 

Michael


Thank you for sharing those fantastic photos. I have often read about this railway and your photos bought it to life for me.


Regards

Alf


Re: : Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

Michael C.
 

BTW, I've had a go at making a video too. This is a first for me so feedback is welcome.
 
This can be seen here:
 
I've tried to take the viewer of a journey on the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway in Porthmadog.
 
See what you think.
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt

 
 

In a message dated 08/10/2014 22:50:54 GMT Daylight Time, LRRSA@... writes:
 

Michael


Thank you for sharing those fantastic photos. I have often read about this railway and your photos bought it to life for me.


Regards

Alf


Re: : Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

Michael C.
 

No worries.
 
Off to France next week...
 
;-)
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt

 
 

In a message dated 08/10/2014 22:50:54 GMT Daylight Time, LRRSA@... writes:
 

Michael


Thank you for sharing those fantastic photos. I have often read about this railway and your photos bought it to life for me.


Regards

Alf


Re: : Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

Alf Aiken
 

Michael


Thank you for sharing those fantastic photos. I have often read about this railway and your photos bought it to life for me.


Regards

Alf


Re: : Brazil ng

halfpilotstaff
 

Thanks for that Roderick, most interesting.

The language barrier need not be one, if you browse that site with Chrome - where you get an instant translation option.


Re: : RE: Advert of the Week

Tony Coen
 

A bit more, John and Phil. Both engines (HC and SS) were bought by Mt. Lyell to help out with construction of the main line. The track had reached Queenstown in June 1896 and maybe the thoughts were that there was no more use for them, hence an attempt to sell them.

 

Cheers,

 

            Tony.

 


From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 10:09 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re:: RE: [LRRSA] Advert of the Week

 

 

John,

What about HC 271/1884 which has dimensions very similar to those you note, viz. 0-6-0T   cyls 9" x 15"   whls 2' 6"  Weight 16 tons ?   Known as "Carbine".

I don't have all the dates at my fingertips but, maybe after buying it from the TGR, they decided they didn't really need it and tried to flog it.  Note the "In good working order". Not many miles on the clock at that stage.  Then finding no sellers they hang on to it for another half-dozen years?

cheers   Phil Rickard 

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Re: : RE: Advert of the Week

Phil Rickard
 

John,

What about HC 271/1884 which has dimensions very similar to those you note, viz. 0-6-0T   cyls 9" x 15"   whls 2' 6"  Weight 16 tons ?   Known as "Carbine".

I don't have all the dates at my fingertips but, maybe after buying it from the TGR, they decided they didn't really need it and tried to flog it.  Note the "In good working order". Not many miles on the clock at that stage.  Then finding no sellers they hang on to it for another half-dozen years?

cheers   Phil Rickard 


Re: Advert of the Week

Tony Coen
 

John, the only locomotive that I can think of is Sharp Stewart 2030/1870 (0-6-0ST). The 1896 advertisement date is odd, though. The engine was purchased by Mt. Lyell from TGR in 1896 and it stayed with Mt. Lyell until sold in 1923 to Elphinstone Red Gum Milling Coy. at Elphinstone, Vic., eventually being scrapped c.1940.

 

My notes give the cyl. dimensions as 9½” (not 9⅜”) and 15” stroke.

 

Perhaps Mt. Lyell bought it and decided that it then didn’t want it!?

 

Cheers,

 

            Tony Coen.

 


From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 10:04 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Advert of the Week

 

 

What was this?

 

FOR SALE, 6 wheel-coupled, saddle-tank, LOCOMOTIVE, 3ft. 6in. gauge; cylinders 9 3/8 in. diameter by 15in. stroke; wheels 2ft. 6in. diameter; weight 15 tons. In good working order. Price £650 on ground, Tasmania. Trial given. Apply to ALFRED MELLOR, 39 Queen-street, Melbourne.

 

Western Mail, 13 November 1896 p.5 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article33133850

 

Alfred Mellor was the “Legal Manager” of the Mt Lyell Mining and Railway Co Ltd.

 

John

 

John Browning

Brisbane

Australia

 

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Brazil ng

Roderick Smith
 

Most/all 610 mm gauge.
www.vaporminimo.com.br

You will have to do your own translation, but an English version is in
preparation.

Roderick B Smith
Rail News Victoria Editor


Advert of the Week

John Browning
 

What was this?

 

FOR SALE, 6 wheel-coupled, saddle-tank, LOCOMOTIVE, 3ft. 6in. gauge; cylinders 9 3/8 in. diameter by 15in. stroke; wheels 2ft. 6in. diameter; weight 15 tons. In good working order. Price £650 on ground, Tasmania. Trial given. Apply to ALFRED MELLOR, 39 Queen-street, Melbourne.

 

Western Mail, 13 November 1896 p.5 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article33133850

 

Alfred Mellor was the “Legal Manager” of the Mt Lyell Mining and Railway Co Ltd.

 

John

 

John Browning

Brisbane

Australia

 


LRRSA SEQ change of meeting details

sncs@...
 

Good morning Everyone, 


I made an error with the meeting details for the SEQ group, it is to be held on FRIDAY 17 October, not Thursday, as was printed in Light Railways, my apologies for any inconvenience caused.



There has been a change to the presentation, John Browning is unavailable, so David Rollins will be showing DVD's of the 2014 'Stars of Sandstone' event.


Regards, 


Scott Gould

Editor, Light Railways




Re: Even more photographs from the UK on Flickr

Michael C.
 

Thank you - I am humbled by your praise.
 
Whilst in Cumbria I also went to visit the 15" gauge Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway.
 
A selection of photographs can be seen here:
 
Views include the new workshop under construction after the old one burned down, the visit of Hercules from the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway - the loco doesn't fit on the turntables so has to be uncoupled from the tender to be turned, shots of River Irt and the diesel loco Douglas Ferreira.
 
It was only a flying visit so I didn't have chance to travel all the way from Ravenglass to Dalegarth; instead I travelled to Irton Road; changed trains and caught the diesel-hauled train back to Ravenglass.
 
Trouble followed as the train had to stop in section as the parking brake would not disengage and started smoking. After being worked on the train continued to Muncaster Mill where the loco was halted. Here several passengers decided to walk back to Ravenglass as they had to catch a connecting Northern Rail train at Ravenglass.
 
The guard walked back to Ravenglass to fetch help and a Thunderbird loco in the shape of Lady Wakefield attended. The double-headed train then returned to Ravenglass.
 
Cheers,
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt

 
 

In a message dated 02/10/2014 22:26:26 GMT Daylight Time, LRRSA@... writes:
 

Michael,
thank you once again for some fantastic photographs. It looks like the day was a lot of fun. You are correct when you say that the interpretation and context provided for the "machinery" gives a better understanding of how they were used, and why they are significant.
I really enjoyed this set,
regards
Geoff Potter


On Wednesday, 1 October 2014, 11:01, "chapmanmchapman@... [LRRSA]" wrote:


 
Dear all,
 
I believe there is a need for preserved and tourist railways to adopt themeactic interpretation and be MORE than just a train ride.
 
With this in mind I visited the South Tynedale Railway at the weekend...
 
They had a visiting locomotive and two visiting carriages - nothing very exciting there, however; the locomotive was Adrian Shooter's former Darjeeling Himalayan Railway 'B' class and the two replica DHR carriages.
 
Lots of people came to see the loco and ride on the special trains, however; what made the event so special and so much more fun than other railway events was the interpretation.
 
The Darjeeling Himalayan Railway Society were in attendance; the stations had been decorated with Indian prayer flags, stations had been re-named so they reflected some of the station names on the DHR, ladies and gentlemen at Alston station were dressed in traditional Indian dress, there was Indian food on sale in the cafe, a Chai lady and Indian music over the PA system. There was an Indian bazarre stand, 32mm DHR models in steam and a DHRS sales stand. It was ace!
 
One minor problem was the DHR carriages were too low for the STR platforms so the train had to load and unload passengers in the stations loops. Wooden stairs were brought up to the carriages allowing passengers to disembark onto the ballast safely.
 
I've uploaded some photos to Flickr. Please visit:
 
New Ravenglass album coming soon...
 
Cheers,
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt



Re: More photographs from the UK on Flickr

Geoff Potter <potgeoff@...>
 

Michael,
thank you once again for some fantastic photographs. It looks like the day was a lot of fun. You are correct when you say that the interpretation and context provided for the "machinery" gives a better understanding of how they were used, and why they are significant.
I really enjoyed this set,
regards
Geoff Potter


On Wednesday, 1 October 2014, 11:01, "chapmanmchapman@... [LRRSA]" wrote:


 
Dear all,
 
I believe there is a need for preserved and tourist railways to adopt themeactic interpretation and be MORE than just a train ride.
 
With this in mind I visited the South Tynedale Railway at the weekend...
 
They had a visiting locomotive and two visiting carriages - nothing very exciting there, however; the locomotive was Adrian Shooter's former Darjeeling Himalayan Railway 'B' class and the two replica DHR carriages.
 
Lots of people came to see the loco and ride on the special trains, however; what made the event so special and so much more fun than other railway events was the interpretation.
 
The Darjeeling Himalayan Railway Society were in attendance; the stations had been decorated with Indian prayer flags, stations had been re-named so they reflected some of the station names on the DHR, ladies and gentlemen at Alston station were dressed in traditional Indian dress, there was Indian food on sale in the cafe, a Chai lady and Indian music over the PA system. There was an Indian bazarre stand, 32mm DHR models in steam and a DHRS sales stand. It was ace!
 
One minor problem was the DHR carriages were too low for the STR platforms so the train had to load and unload passengers in the stations loops. Wooden stairs were brought up to the carriages allowing passengers to disembark onto the ballast safely.
 
I've uploaded some photos to Flickr. Please visit:
 
New Ravenglass album coming soon...
 
Cheers,
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt



More photographs from the UK on Flickr

Michael C.
 

Dear all,
 
I believe there is a need for preserved and tourist railways to adopt themeactic interpretation and be MORE than just a train ride.
 
With this in mind I visited the South Tynedale Railway at the weekend...
 
They had a visiting locomotive and two visiting carriages - nothing very exciting there, however; the locomotive was Adrian Shooter's former Darjeeling Himalayan Railway 'B' class and the two replica DHR carriages.
 
Lots of people came to see the loco and ride on the special trains, however; what made the event so special and so much more fun than other railway events was the interpretation.
 
The Darjeeling Himalayan Railway Society were in attendance; the stations had been decorated with Indian prayer flags, stations had been re-named so they reflected some of the station names on the DHR, ladies and gentlemen at Alston station were dressed in traditional Indian dress, there was Indian food on sale in the cafe, a Chai lady and Indian music over the PA system. There was an Indian bazarre stand, 32mm DHR models in steam and a DHRS sales stand. It was ace!
 
One minor problem was the DHR carriages were too low for the STR platforms so the train had to load and unload passengers in the stations loops. Wooden stairs were brought up to the carriages allowing passengers to disembark onto the ballast safely.
 
I've uploaded some photos to Flickr. Please visit:
 
New Ravenglass album coming soon...
 
Cheers,
 
Michael Chapman

Follow the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WHHRly
Follow my railway adventures on Flickr at http://tinyurl.com/nlvlnmt


Re: the McIvor triangle

Eddie Oliver
 

Thank you Frank.


Another question, mainly to "Hairyleg" - John, there are numerous
substantial differences between the maps in the new book and the
patterns in the Hairyleg's Google Earth overlays. I realise that some of
those overlay markings are obviously speculative (straight lines rather
than detailed routes) but what were the sources of your version?


Re: the McIvor triangle

Frank Stamford
 



On 30 Sep 2014, at 9:38 pm, "Eddie Oliver eoliver@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

Frank Stamford's McIvor tramway book is just brilliant in all respects -
congratulations, Frank, on a superb effort of both preparation and
production.

One of the most frequently appearing elements is the Triangle. It is
totally unclear to me why the triangle was ever installed, and I have a
feeling that if we had a greater understanding of that question, some
other mysterious things would fall more into place as well.

One possible explanation is that it was contemplated as a way of turning
the locos to minimise the wear that would result from them always
running in one direction, yet it seems that they usually ran in one
direction - presumably to handle the steep gradients better. But is it
possible that (at least at some stage) the preferred loco orientation
was opposite north of the triangle from what it was south thereof? That
would also add extra meaning to the bits about changing locos at the
triangle (page 45)?

Thanks for your kind comments on the book.

I am just as perplexed as you as to why the triangle was installed, and I have spent about forty years trying to work out a logical reason. Your suggestion that at least at some stage the preferred locomotive orientation was opposite north of the triangle compared to south has occurred to me too. I think that is quite a likely explanation in the early years when they handling a lot of traffic and using two locomotives. At that time they were not working north of the triangle but east.

Unfortunately the triangle fell out of use before 1917 and I was not able to find anyone to interview who had first hand knowledge of how it was used.


How long was the apex of the triangle? And are there any photos of it
(despite the frequent mentions, it seems to have missed out from getting
photos in the book)?

I cannot give any precise estimate of the length of the apex of the triangle, it might have been long enough to take a complete train, but I am doubtful of that. It definitely dead-ended within the confines of the paddock, that was my observation, and several people who saw the earthworks confirm that. 

No, I do not know of any photographs of the triangle, if there were they certainly would have gone into the book. 

Regards,

Frank


the McIvor triangle

Eddie Oliver
 

Frank Stamford's McIvor tramway book is just brilliant in all respects -
congratulations, Frank, on a superb effort of both preparation and
production.


One of the most frequently appearing elements is the Triangle. It is
totally unclear to me why the triangle was ever installed, and I have a
feeling that if we had a greater understanding of that question, some
other mysterious things would fall more into place as well.


One possible explanation is that it was contemplated as a way of turning
the locos to minimise the wear that would result from them always
running in one direction, yet it seems that they usually ran in one
direction - presumably to handle the steep gradients better. But is it
possible that (at least at some stage) the preferred loco orientation
was opposite north of the triangle from what it was south thereof? That
would also add extra meaning to the bits about changing locos at the
triangle (page 45)?


How long was the apex of the triangle? And are there any photos of it
(despite the frequent mentions, it seems to have missed out from getting
photos in the book)?


Re: : Newmarket saleyards

Marie and David Lowe
 

Thanks all, the track diagrams are great and clearly show what was happening.
David.

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