Date   

Re: Best gauge

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Most of the Ironstone workings of the UK were 3 ft gauge.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: crannyjohn
Date: 02/10/07 17:14:34
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Best gauge

All all,

I feel that the Simla line in India can give us clues about this
question via comparing it to the VR lines and the large desert 'high
efficency' lines.

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?

This discussion is focused on the 'theoretical' best gauge and I guess
governments might have an interest in this to justify spending
taxpayers money wisely.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges. The gasworks one of 2' 6" was mentioned. The navy
line in Swan Island was 3' and the information suggests that this was
the gauge used in the UK for mines type depots. Do other people know
of 'tradional' gauges used in particular industries or perhaps by
particular engineers? This doesn't include the idea of getting
a 'bargain' loco which sets the gauge for the rest of the line.

Cheers
John


Best gauge

John Peterson
 

All all,

I feel that the Simla line in India can give us clues about this
question via comparing it to the VR lines and the large desert 'high
efficency' lines.

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?

This discussion is focused on the 'theoretical' best gauge and I guess
governments might have an interest in this to justify spending
taxpayers money wisely.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges. The gasworks one of 2' 6" was mentioned. The navy
line in Swan Island was 3' and the information suggests that this was
the gauge used in the UK for mines type depots. Do other people know
of 'tradional' gauges used in particular industries or perhaps by
particular engineers? This doesn't include the idea of getting
a 'bargain' loco which sets the gauge for the rest of the line.

Cheers
John


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Frank

I think on this occasion we both score half a point <grin>

According to "Schmalspur zwischen Ostsee und Erzgebirge", Rollboecke were
used in Saxony at Reichenbach and just over the border
on the Forster Stadtbahn (beautiful little Chiemseebahn style steam tram
locos). Both of these were metre gauge rather than 750mm. This rather
endorses the discusiion that has been going on regarding stability and gauge
Obviously Rollboecke were less stable than Rollwagen, and therefore not
suitable for the narrower gauge. That also endorses the fact that the L&M
carriers were not suitable for the narrower Ashover. Both bogie fouling and
a tendency to tip over on curves must have made evn the 1934 test seem quite
hazardous.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Frank Stamford
Date: 9/02/2007 9:23:18 PM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Actually the Saxon 75cm gauge lines used Rollwagen rather than Rollböcke.

Rollwagen were transporter trucks on which the standard gauge wagons could
be rolled and clamped into position. There were eight-wheel and
twelve-wheel versions. I do not think they dated from the construction of
the first Saxon 75 cm gauge lines in 1881, but they were in use by early in
The twentieth century.


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

A C Lynn Zelmer
 

Bill

At least a possibility... essentially an editing task, rather than
authoring, then verifying the result with a couple of the more
knowledgeable members prior to publication.

Best wishes,
Lynn

Lynn,

It has been suggested elsewhere that a lot of what has been
mentioned this could be brought together into and article. If you
want to do a short article for the modelers, would you mind going a
bit further with the information to produce an article for LR?

Regards,

Bill Hanks

________________________________

From: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
[mailto:<mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au]
On Behalf Of A C Lynn Zelmer
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 9:52 AM
To: LRRSA Yahoo Group
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG:
<http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
<<http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393



--
Lynn Zelmer Fax: +61 7 4936 2393
Box 1414, Rockhampton QLD 4700 Australia
http://www.zelmeroz.com


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Frank Stamford
 

Actually the Saxon 75cm gauge lines used Rollwagen rather than Rollböcke.

Rollwagen were transporter trucks on which the standard gauge wagons could
be rolled and clamped into position. There were eight-wheel and
twelve-wheel versions. I do not think they dated from the construction of
the first Saxon 75 cm gauge lines in 1881, but they were in use by early in
the twentieth century.

Rollböcke were individual four-wheel bogies which were clamped under the
axles of standard gauge wagons. 75 cm gauge Rollböcke were used in the
German state of Wuerttemburg, but I think they might be a relatively modern
development.

The type of transfer facilities for Rollböcke were more complex than for
Rollwagen. Rollböcke required a long deep pit under the standard-gauge
vehicles, Rollwagen just needed a simple ramp.

It was possible to carry bogie standard-gauge vehicles on Rollwagen, with
one Rollwagen under each standard gauge bogie, and a long reach-bar linking
the two Rollwagens.

The transporter trucks used on the Leek & Manifold Railway in England used
the same principle as the Rollwagen.

The Harz Mountain Railway was metre-gauge, so they certainly would have
been more stable than the 75 cm gauge Rollböcke and Rollwagen.


Frank

At 01:59 PM 9/02/2007, you wrote:

Those on the Saxon 750mm gauge lines were equally effective.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Bill Hanks
Date: 9/02/2007 12:19:21 PM
To: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard
gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed
that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks





Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Those on the Saxon 750mm gauge lines were equally effective.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Bill Hanks
Date: 9/02/2007 12:19:21 PM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard
gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed
that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

bll_hnks
 

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks



________________________________

From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Michael J
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 10:44 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?



--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Frank Savery" <franksavery@...> wrote:

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or
more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover
Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went
out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
If I remember right, there was another "rule" that the track gauge had
to be more than half the standard gauge track. Which implies that the
VR narrow gauge would not have been suitable for transhiper wagons
with broad gauge wagons.

Michael





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

bll_hnks
 

Lynn,



It has been suggested elsewhere that a lot of what has been mentioned this could be brought together into and article. If you want to do a short article for the modelers, would you mind going a bit further with the information to produce an article for LR?



Regards,

Bill Hanks



________________________________

From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of A C Lynn Zelmer
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 9:52 AM
To: LRRSA Yahoo Group
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article



I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig <http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Michael J
 

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, "Frank Savery" <franksavery@...> wrote:

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or
more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover
Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went
out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
If I remember right, there was another "rule" that the track gauge had
to be more than half the standard gauge track. Which implies that the
VR narrow gauge would not have been suitable for transhiper wagons
with broad gauge wagons.

Michael


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

Michael J
 

Lynn,

No problem from my point of view. Although I think it went a lot deeper than our brief look at the subject.

Cheers,

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: A C Lynn Zelmer [mailto:lynn@zelmeroz.com]
Sent: 2/9/2007 9:51:47 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393



Narrow Gauge, an article

A C Lynn Zelmer
 

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow Gauge modelling special interest group's web site (www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393


National Trust Victoria Archives Cull

BM
 

The National Trust Victoria is having to cull its library and is looking for
a new home for a number of its journals. A list has been circulated through
Heritage Victoria chat site and includes:

'The Great Circle', Journal of the Australian Assoc. of Maritime History,
1989-2000, plus Index 1979-1990.

'Heritage Australia', 1985-1990

'Light Railways', LRRSA, 1979-1997

'Light Railways News', LRRSA, 1979-1997

If you are interested in taking these off the hands of the Trust, please
contact Kyeelee Delafosse on 9656 9828 ,or 0415 550 109, or email:
kyeelee.delafosse@nattrust.com.au, by Friday 16 February. Journals must
either be picked up from Tasma Terrace, 4 Parliament Place, East Melbourne,
or delivery arranged at your expense.

If anyone is able to rescue these from an unfortunate fate (recycling) we
would be most grateful.
Bob McKillop


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

B.Rumary
 

Frank Stamford wrote:

But they carried standard-gauge wagons and vans on transporter trucks,
as was done on the Leek & Manifold in England. I do not think that was
possible on 2 ft gauge.
After the L&M closed the transporter wagons were sold to a 2ft gauge
line and regauged. However they were found to be too unstable on such a
narrow gauge and soon taken out of service.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

B.Rumary
 

Michael J wrote:

I know nothing about Salonika. In Egypt there was already an extensive
(over 1000 km) 750mm gauge system, the Delta Light Railways,as well as
at least three inderpendant lines of that gauge. In Iraq things worked
just as they were meant to - the British simply picked up an entire
2ft6in gauge railway from India and laid it in the Basra region to
support their invasion.
I think the Allies mostly used 600mm around Salonika. As for the
"Egyptian" campaign, the forces advancing into Turkish territory
(Palestine, Syria, etc.) mostly used 600mm.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Frank Savery
 

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
cheers,
Frank Savery,
Ulverstone,
Tasmania

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Stamford
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:08 AM
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?


--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, ceo8@... wrote:

> Interestngly, can Michael explain the choice of 2ft 6ins gauge by
Metropolitan
> Gas in melbourne in 1886? Can anyone say if any locomotives of this
gauge were
> built before this date?

I don't know why the Metropolitan Gas Co. chose 2 ft 6 in gauge, but
75 cm gauge (2 ft 5-1/2 in) was by that time well established for
public railways.

The Royal Saxon State Railways (headquarterd at Dresden) began
building a large system of 75 cm gauge branch lines in 1881. The first
locos were 0-6-0Ts built by Sächsische Maschinenfabrik, Chemnitz. They
were the Saxon IK class, with an in-service weight of 16.8 tonnes.
About 44 locos of this class were built. As the traffic built up other
classes followed, including (amongst others) two Double-Fairlie
0-4-4-0Ts built by R. & W. Hawthorn in 1884; six 0-6-2Ts with Klose
flexible wheelbase; and the highly successful IVK class 0-4-4-0T Meyer
articulated locos, which first appeared in 1891 and of which well over
100 were built.

The rolling stock on the Saxon 75 cm gauge lines was quite narrow, and
could have been accommodated on 2ft/60 cm gauge.

But they carried standard-gauge wagons and vans on transporter trucks,
as was done on the Leek & Manifold in England. I do not think that was
possible on 2 ft gauge.

Regards,

Frank






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.30/674 - Release Date: 7/02/2007 3:33 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: the narrow gauge question

Michael J
 

Hi John,

The Kalka Simla line was not so much a hill line as a mountain line by
our standards! 102 tunnels, 864 bridges, and 919 curves with a 1:25
ruling gradient, in about 60 miles. It is also interesting in that
construction started in 2ft gauge, but after the edict from the British
military, the line was converted to 2ft6in gauge. I wrote the following
about it's steam locos in a Wikipedia article:

The first locomotives to arrive were two class "B" 0-4-0ST from the
famous Darjeeling Himalayan Railway
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darjeeling_Himalayan_Railway> . These were
built as 2' gauge engines, but were converted to 2' 6" gauge in 1901.
They were not large enough for the job, and were sold on in 1908. They
were followed by 10 engines with a 0-4-2T wheel arrangement of a
slightly larger design, introduced in 1902. These locos weighed 21.5
tons, and had 30" driving wheels, and 12"x16" cylinders. They were later
classified into the "B" class by the North Western State Railways. All
these locos were constructed by the British firm of Sharp Stewart
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp%2C_Roberts_and_Company> .
Larger locomotives were introduced in the form of an 2-6-2T, of which 30
were built with slight variations between 1904 and 1910. Built by the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunslet_Engine_Company> Hunslet and the
North British Locomotive Company
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_British_Locomotive_Company> , these
locomotives were about 35 tons, with 30" drivers and 14"x16" cylinders.
These locomotives, later classed K and K2 by the North Western State
Railways, subsequently handled the bulk of the railways traffic during
the steam era. A pair of
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_locomotive> Kitson-Meyer 2-6-2+2-6-2
articulated locomotives, classed TD, were supplied in 1928. They quickly
fell into disfavour, as it often took all day for enough freight to be
assembled to justify operating a goods train
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_train> hauled by one of these
locos. Shippers looking for a faster service started to turn to road
transport. These 68 ton locomotives were soon transferred to the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kangra_Valley_Railway&action=
edit> Kangra Valley Railway, and subsequently ended up converted to
metre gauge <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre_gauge> in Pakistan
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan> .
Michael


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

The Bickfords <womloc4@...>
 

Trevor,

I have here a detailed scale plan from athe Octber 1997 issue of Continental Modeller magazine.
It shows the front tank at 6'7" wide, the cab at 7'0" wide over the handrail knobs and the rear tank/bunker at 6'6" wide.

cheers,
Mike Bickford
Berowra & Nalya Tramway
Sydney, Australia
www.ritginc.org

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steamfreak" <steamfreak@bluedigital.com.au>
To: <LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?


I viewed a drawing last night for the attachment of weights
to the underframes of the NU louvre vans to reduce their
centre of gravity. If these weights needed to be added to
vehicles that were 6ft 3in wide to stabilize them what would
wider vehicles have been like?! Maybe the width of the VR NG
vehicles is right, but then again the ex Mt Lyell 3ft 6in
gauge cars sit reasonably well on 2ft 6in.
By contrast, how wide is the NGG16 at Puffing Billy compared to an NA?

Trevor.


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Steamfreak <steamfreak@...>
 

I viewed a drawing last night for the attachment of weights
to the underframes of the NU louvre vans to reduce their
centre of gravity. If these weights needed to be added to
vehicles that were 6ft 3in wide to stabilize them what would
wider vehicles have been like?! Maybe the width of the VR NG
vehicles is right, but then again the ex Mt Lyell 3ft 6in
gauge cars sit reasonably well on 2ft 6in.
By contrast, how wide is the NGG16 at Puffing Billy compared to an NA?

Trevor.


the narrow gauge question

John Peterson
 

Hello all,

An interesting discussion.

Having a closs look at the article that started it all it seems to me
that it was built with a different criteria to the situation in Vic.

The locos were big and eight coupled to spread the weight to allow the
5 tons axle load. These railways were built for the desert with little
or no major engineering works as an exercise in the maximum effeciency
for a railway. Imagining them used on a trip to Walhalla I don't feel
it would make it around the curves used and would require major
earthworks to allow for overhang and swing on curves. On a reverse
curve?? In other words it would defeat many of the advantages of using
a narrow gauge.

The VR ran some long trains. I suspect that the rolling stock was on
the small size to allow for efficiency in engineering in hilly country
and to make it less likely to derail. In that context I guess 2'6"
would have an advantage over 2'. I suspect the train lengths were much
longer on the VR than the NE Dundus in the photos I've seen.

I checked out another line in India that ran in hilly country also 2'
6" gauge to see the sort of loco and rolling stock; were they smaller?
The Kalka Simla line [still running] seems similar to VR mountain
country. They used 2-6-2T and at one stage 2-6-2 + 2-6-2 artics as
well. The rolling stock however, seems bigger than the VR one. Could
someone with knowledge of these lines comment?


Cheers
John


Re: Light Railways Magazine

Joy <jloughnan@...>
 

Mine arrived at Portland, Vic. on Monday. The cover designer has
outdone himself this time, it's excellent.


-- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, Brian Rumary <brian@...> wrote:

Bob McKillop wrote:

If the February issue of Light Railways was only posted on Friday,
Australia Post has
done well this time - mine was received here in Sydney on Monday 5th.
Mine arrived here in the UK this morning!

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk

9541 - 9560 of 10266