Date   

Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Michael J
 

What was used in Poland? My memory was Rollbocke type equipment, but I’m
not sure.

Cheers,

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On
Behalf Of Frank Stamford
Sent: 10 February 2007 21:07
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?


Ron,

Yes well I said the Saxon 75 cm gauge lines used Rollwagen not
Rollböcke,
and I think that statement is correct, I was not speaking of Saxon metre

gauge lines.


Re: Best gauge

Michael J
 

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, "Michael J" <thirtyinchfan@...> wrote:

So there is not much difference. The Shimla loco acheves a greater TF
despite being a fraction lighter, probably because of better
distribution of weight.
I just looked at the driving wheel dia, the Shimla was 30" and the NA
36", so that probably accounts for the differance in TF.

Who would have thought of the NA class as a thoughbred and not a
drafthorse?

Michael


Re: Best gauge

Frank Stamford
 

Well if you are seeking the "best" gauge for a public railway carrying passengers and freight, I thought that question was settled in about 1835 - it is 1435 mm.

No doubt about that in my mind, every deviation from it was an economic disaster!

But all those economic disasters produced some wonderful fascinating material for organisations like the LRRSA to write about, and for numerous societies around the world to preserve.

George W. Hilton's book "American Narrow Gauge Railways" (Stanford University Press, 1990) covers this subject very well In the early sections of that book he covers the world-wide development of different gauges, and goes into the economics of it very thoroughly.

Frank

At 05:13 PM 10/02/2007, you wrote:

All all,

I feel that the Simla line in India can give us clues about this
question via comparing it to the VR lines and the large desert 'high
efficency' lines.

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?

This discussion is focused on the 'theoretical' best gauge and I guess
governments might have an interest in this to justify spending
taxpayers money wisely.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges. The gasworks one of 2' 6" was mentioned. The navy
line in Swan Island was 3' and the information suggests that this was
the gauge used in the UK for mines type depots. Do other people know
of 'tradional' gauges used in particular industries or perhaps by
particular engineers? This doesn't include the idea of getting
a 'bargain' loco which sets the gauge for the rest of the line.

Cheers
John


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Frank Stamford
 

Ron,

Yes well I said the Saxon 75 cm gauge lines used Rollwagen not Rollböcke,
and I think that statement is correct, I was not speaking of Saxon metre
gauge lines.

It would be reasonable to assume that Rollwagen would be more stable on 75
cm gauge than Rollböcke. But 75 cm gauge Rollböcke were used in
Wuerttemburg on at least three lines, one was the Oechslebahn, another was
the Federseebahn, and the third the Bottwartalbahn.
I have a video of Wuerttemburg narrow-gauge lines and the standard-gauge
vans on the 75 cm gauge Rollböcke look very precarious to me!

Regards,

Frank

At 04:55 PM 10/02/2007, you wrote:

Frank

I think on this occasion we both score half a point <grin>

According to "Schmalspur zwischen Ostsee und Erzgebirge", Rollboecke were
used in Saxony at Reichenbach and just over the border
on the Forster Stadtbahn (beautiful little Chiemseebahn style steam tram
locos). Both of these were metre gauge rather than 750mm. This rather
endorses the discusiion that has been going on regarding stability and gauge
Obviously Rollboecke were less stable than Rollwagen, and therefore not
suitable for the narrower gauge. That also endorses the fact that the L&M
carriers were not suitable for the narrower Ashover. Both bogie fouling and
a tendency to tip over on curves must have made evn the 1934 test seem quite
hazardous.

Ron M.
-------Original Message-------

From: Frank Stamford
Date: 9/02/2007 9:23:18 PM
To: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Actually the Saxon 75cm gauge lines used Rollwagen rather than Rollböcke.

Rollwagen were transporter trucks on which the standard gauge wagons could
be rolled and clamped into position. There were eight-wheel and
twelve-wheel versions. I do not think they dated from the construction of
the first Saxon 75 cm gauge lines in 1881, but they were in use by early in
The twentieth century.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Best gauge

Michael J
 

John,

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?
Always happy to oblige. The minimum radius of the Shimla line was 45
degrees, which I understand is 123ft radius. This compares with the
minimum radius on the VRNG, which was 2 chains, or 132ft.

Most of the locos I've seen seem to be a little narrower - about 7'6"
but overall size about the same. So maybe a slightly smaller loading
gauge. For the Shimla 2-6-2T locos:

Wheelbase Rigid 6'
Wheelbase overall 17'6"
TF 14,112lb
Weight total 34.97
Max axle weight 8.55

For a VR NA:

Wheelbase Rigid 8'
Wheelbase overall ?
TF 12,515lb
Weight total 35.3
Max axle weight 9.2

So there is not much difference. The Shimla loco acheves a greater TF
despite being a fraction lighter, probably because of better
distribution of weight.

Rolling stock is almost univerally smaller than the locos, and most
Indian designs I have seen are 7' wide.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges.
And for industrial lines I've came across a huge variety of gauges.
There do seem to traditions - for 2'6" gauge in Britain, peat railways
(one built as recently as 2000), military instilations, gasworks, and
others , in Pensylvania steel milla and coal mines, in Lousianna sugar
lines. There seem to have been a "nest" of 2'6" logging lines around
the Erica district.

Cheers,

Michael


Re: Best gauge

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Most of the Ironstone workings of the UK were 3 ft gauge.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: crannyjohn
Date: 02/10/07 17:14:34
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Best gauge

All all,

I feel that the Simla line in India can give us clues about this
question via comparing it to the VR lines and the large desert 'high
efficency' lines.

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?

This discussion is focused on the 'theoretical' best gauge and I guess
governments might have an interest in this to justify spending
taxpayers money wisely.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges. The gasworks one of 2' 6" was mentioned. The navy
line in Swan Island was 3' and the information suggests that this was
the gauge used in the UK for mines type depots. Do other people know
of 'tradional' gauges used in particular industries or perhaps by
particular engineers? This doesn't include the idea of getting
a 'bargain' loco which sets the gauge for the rest of the line.

Cheers
John


Best gauge

John Peterson
 

All all,

I feel that the Simla line in India can give us clues about this
question via comparing it to the VR lines and the large desert 'high
efficency' lines.

Michael, are you able to give an indication of the curves used and
maybe the clearances or the size of the rolling stock used on the
mountain Simla line in India?

This discussion is focused on the 'theoretical' best gauge and I guess
governments might have an interest in this to justify spending
taxpayers money wisely.

I suspect that in other cases the gauge chosen was for more arbitary
reasons. Mention was made that in certain industries had a tradition
of certain gauges. The gasworks one of 2' 6" was mentioned. The navy
line in Swan Island was 3' and the information suggests that this was
the gauge used in the UK for mines type depots. Do other people know
of 'tradional' gauges used in particular industries or perhaps by
particular engineers? This doesn't include the idea of getting
a 'bargain' loco which sets the gauge for the rest of the line.

Cheers
John


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Frank

I think on this occasion we both score half a point <grin>

According to "Schmalspur zwischen Ostsee und Erzgebirge", Rollboecke were
used in Saxony at Reichenbach and just over the border
on the Forster Stadtbahn (beautiful little Chiemseebahn style steam tram
locos). Both of these were metre gauge rather than 750mm. This rather
endorses the discusiion that has been going on regarding stability and gauge
Obviously Rollboecke were less stable than Rollwagen, and therefore not
suitable for the narrower gauge. That also endorses the fact that the L&M
carriers were not suitable for the narrower Ashover. Both bogie fouling and
a tendency to tip over on curves must have made evn the 1934 test seem quite
hazardous.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Frank Stamford
Date: 9/02/2007 9:23:18 PM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Actually the Saxon 75cm gauge lines used Rollwagen rather than Rollböcke.

Rollwagen were transporter trucks on which the standard gauge wagons could
be rolled and clamped into position. There were eight-wheel and
twelve-wheel versions. I do not think they dated from the construction of
the first Saxon 75 cm gauge lines in 1881, but they were in use by early in
The twentieth century.


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

A C Lynn Zelmer
 

Bill

At least a possibility... essentially an editing task, rather than
authoring, then verifying the result with a couple of the more
knowledgeable members prior to publication.

Best wishes,
Lynn

Lynn,

It has been suggested elsewhere that a lot of what has been
mentioned this could be brought together into and article. If you
want to do a short article for the modelers, would you mind going a
bit further with the information to produce an article for LR?

Regards,

Bill Hanks

________________________________

From: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
[mailto:<mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au]
On Behalf Of A C Lynn Zelmer
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 9:52 AM
To: LRRSA Yahoo Group
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG:
<http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
<<http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393



--
Lynn Zelmer Fax: +61 7 4936 2393
Box 1414, Rockhampton QLD 4700 Australia
http://www.zelmeroz.com


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Frank Stamford
 

Actually the Saxon 75cm gauge lines used Rollwagen rather than Rollböcke.

Rollwagen were transporter trucks on which the standard gauge wagons could
be rolled and clamped into position. There were eight-wheel and
twelve-wheel versions. I do not think they dated from the construction of
the first Saxon 75 cm gauge lines in 1881, but they were in use by early in
the twentieth century.

Rollböcke were individual four-wheel bogies which were clamped under the
axles of standard gauge wagons. 75 cm gauge Rollböcke were used in the
German state of Wuerttemburg, but I think they might be a relatively modern
development.

The type of transfer facilities for Rollböcke were more complex than for
Rollwagen. Rollböcke required a long deep pit under the standard-gauge
vehicles, Rollwagen just needed a simple ramp.

It was possible to carry bogie standard-gauge vehicles on Rollwagen, with
one Rollwagen under each standard gauge bogie, and a long reach-bar linking
the two Rollwagens.

The transporter trucks used on the Leek & Manifold Railway in England used
the same principle as the Rollwagen.

The Harz Mountain Railway was metre-gauge, so they certainly would have
been more stable than the 75 cm gauge Rollböcke and Rollwagen.


Frank

At 01:59 PM 9/02/2007, you wrote:

Those on the Saxon 750mm gauge lines were equally effective.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Bill Hanks
Date: 9/02/2007 12:19:21 PM
To: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard
gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed
that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks





Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
 

Those on the Saxon 750mm gauge lines were equally effective.

Ron M.

-------Original Message-------

From: Bill Hanks
Date: 9/02/2007 12:19:21 PM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard
gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed
that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

bll_hnks
 

The 'Rollbokkers' (the bogies placed under the axles of 4 wheel standard gauge wagons), used on part of the Harz (East Germany) would have followed that rule. They appear to be quite stable.



Regards,

Bill Hanks



________________________________

From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Michael J
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 10:44 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?



--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Frank Savery" <franksavery@...> wrote:

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or
more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover
Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went
out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
If I remember right, there was another "rule" that the track gauge had
to be more than half the standard gauge track. Which implies that the
VR narrow gauge would not have been suitable for transhiper wagons
with broad gauge wagons.

Michael





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

bll_hnks
 

Lynn,



It has been suggested elsewhere that a lot of what has been mentioned this could be brought together into and article. If you want to do a short article for the modelers, would you mind going a bit further with the information to produce an article for LR?



Regards,

Bill Hanks



________________________________

From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of A C Lynn Zelmer
Sent: Friday, 9 February 2007 9:52 AM
To: LRRSA Yahoo Group
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article



I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig <http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig>
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Michael J
 

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, "Frank Savery" <franksavery@...> wrote:

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or
more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover
Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went
out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
If I remember right, there was another "rule" that the track gauge had
to be more than half the standard gauge track. Which implies that the
VR narrow gauge would not have been suitable for transhiper wagons
with broad gauge wagons.

Michael


Re: Narrow Gauge, an article

Michael J
 

Lynn,

No problem from my point of view. Although I think it went a lot deeper than our brief look at the subject.

Cheers,

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: A C Lynn Zelmer [mailto:lynn@zelmeroz.com]
Sent: 2/9/2007 9:51:47 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Narrow Gauge, an article

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow
Gauge modelling special interest group's web site
(www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with
my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393



Narrow Gauge, an article

A C Lynn Zelmer
 

I'd like to do a short web article on choosing a gauge for the Narrow Gauge modelling special interest group's web site (www.zelmeroz.com/ngrail).

Does any contributor to the recent discussion have a difficulty with my using properly credited quotes as part of this article?

Thanks and best wishes,
Lynn
--
CaneSIG: http://www.zelmeroz.com/canesig
A C Lynn Zelmer, Coordinator
Box 1414 Rockhampton Qld 4700 Australia
Fax: +61 7 4936 2393


National Trust Victoria Archives Cull

BM
 

The National Trust Victoria is having to cull its library and is looking for
a new home for a number of its journals. A list has been circulated through
Heritage Victoria chat site and includes:

'The Great Circle', Journal of the Australian Assoc. of Maritime History,
1989-2000, plus Index 1979-1990.

'Heritage Australia', 1985-1990

'Light Railways', LRRSA, 1979-1997

'Light Railways News', LRRSA, 1979-1997

If you are interested in taking these off the hands of the Trust, please
contact Kyeelee Delafosse on 9656 9828 ,or 0415 550 109, or email:
kyeelee.delafosse@nattrust.com.au, by Friday 16 February. Journals must
either be picked up from Tasma Terrace, 4 Parliament Place, East Melbourne,
or delivery arranged at your expense.

If anyone is able to rescue these from an unfortunate fate (recycling) we
would be most grateful.
Bob McKillop


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

B.Rumary
 

Frank Stamford wrote:

But they carried standard-gauge wagons and vans on transporter trucks,
as was done on the Leek & Manifold in England. I do not think that was
possible on 2 ft gauge.
After the L&M closed the transporter wagons were sold to a 2ft gauge
line and regauged. However they were found to be too unstable on such a
narrow gauge and soon taken out of service.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

B.Rumary
 

Michael J wrote:

I know nothing about Salonika. In Egypt there was already an extensive
(over 1000 km) 750mm gauge system, the Delta Light Railways,as well as
at least three inderpendant lines of that gauge. In Iraq things worked
just as they were meant to - the British simply picked up an entire
2ft6in gauge railway from India and laid it in the Basra region to
support their invasion.
I think the Allies mostly used 600mm around Salonika. As for the
"Egyptian" campaign, the forces advancing into Turkish territory
(Palestine, Syria, etc.) mostly used 600mm.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk


Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?

Frank Savery
 

Hi all,
If I remember my UK railway history correctly after closure one or more of the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons went to the Ashover Light Railway and was converted to 2' gauge. But it very quickly went out of use when it was found to be too unstable on 2' gauge.
cheers,
Frank Savery,
Ulverstone,
Tasmania

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Stamford
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:08 AM
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: The narrow gauge question? Best gauge?


--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, ceo8@... wrote:

> Interestngly, can Michael explain the choice of 2ft 6ins gauge by
Metropolitan
> Gas in melbourne in 1886? Can anyone say if any locomotives of this
gauge were
> built before this date?

I don't know why the Metropolitan Gas Co. chose 2 ft 6 in gauge, but
75 cm gauge (2 ft 5-1/2 in) was by that time well established for
public railways.

The Royal Saxon State Railways (headquarterd at Dresden) began
building a large system of 75 cm gauge branch lines in 1881. The first
locos were 0-6-0Ts built by Sächsische Maschinenfabrik, Chemnitz. They
were the Saxon IK class, with an in-service weight of 16.8 tonnes.
About 44 locos of this class were built. As the traffic built up other
classes followed, including (amongst others) two Double-Fairlie
0-4-4-0Ts built by R. & W. Hawthorn in 1884; six 0-6-2Ts with Klose
flexible wheelbase; and the highly successful IVK class 0-4-4-0T Meyer
articulated locos, which first appeared in 1891 and of which well over
100 were built.

The rolling stock on the Saxon 75 cm gauge lines was quite narrow, and
could have been accommodated on 2ft/60 cm gauge.

But they carried standard-gauge wagons and vans on transporter trucks,
as was done on the Leek & Manifold in England. I do not think that was
possible on 2 ft gauge.

Regards,

Frank






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.30/674 - Release Date: 7/02/2007 3:33 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

9541 - 9560 of 10271