Date   

Re: Mis-Fires, Apologies, and mysteriously shape-changing-wheels

Frank Stamford
 

Hello John, Prof. and others,

At 07:39 AM 27/04/2010, John Browning wrote:

Dear Prof, Frank and all

I look forward to Frank's comments on the relics that may have been part of
the 'Super Sentinel' and before that Skinner & Jolley's locomotive (LR 211
p.21). I found it very difficult to discern much detail from the smaller
photos. Hopefully Scott's very interesting article was just a 'taster' and
in the new book they will appear in larger format.
I still have to find the time to do this as I expect it might take a few hours of intense study. The photos will certainly appear in larger format in the book. I will be studying larger versions of the photos, and the text of the book.


However, in relation to the Fordson locomotive on page 24, the features on
the front of the chassis appear to be identical in both the colour photo
taken at Triabunna and the black and white photo showing it 'distraught' at
Raminea(?). I suppose an interesting question is whether more than one of
them was built but I doubt if Scott would document such a significant move
without supporting evidence.

Certainly, the evidence of 'knowledgeable' locals in oral history always
needs to be tempered by other sources. There were quite a few early
enthusiasts who were assured that 'such and such' a Queensland cane loco
served in the Western Front in France, or even at the Panama Canal, when
they had never been out of the state since arriving here new from the
factory overseas.
Yes, the reason that statements like that are usually very unreliable is that the person making them did not have first hand experience of seeing the locomotive go in to service at its alleged previous workplace or its later destination. It is not the type of information which should be sought in interviewing people, and if volunteered should be treated with the greatest circumspection.

But handled the right way oral history can be extremely valuable in our areas of interest. I think all the Victorian timber tramway researchers used it extensively, and some writers went to extreme lengths to get interviews with reluctant subjects. Without that input from people who were there, and who in many cases owned or managed the businesses, the books we have published on timber tramways would have been very much thinner, very much less interesting, and have many more unanswered questions. But the oral history was only one source of information, it was used with newspaper references, site visits, analysis of photographs and whatever other documents were available.

Sadly the days of interviewing people with first hand experience of Victorian timber tramways are now practically over. However the technique would still have its uses in other areas, such as Queensland sugar tramways/railways I think.


This reminds me of the risk that Scott Clennett is taking in going to press
with his discoveries, which I keenly look forward to seeing. Working in a
similar project on the Queensland cane industry, I am sure of two things.
The first is that the author will make inadvertent mistakes in documenting
the history for a whole variety of reasons. The second is that there is
nothing like publication to flush out new knowledge from those who would
challenge or correct the author's efforts. While in one sense to be dreaded
because no one likes to be shown up as having made mistakes (sometimes
obvious ones in hindsight), there is a great benefit in having the record
corrected and our knowledge expanded.
Deciding the right time to publish is always difficult. Too often I think books have been put off waiting for the final missing details to turn up, and they may never turn up - or they may take a very long time to surface after all hope has been lost.

If every history book was the last word on its subject, it would make things very boring for future historians, and an anti-climax for those involved in the writing.

The cost of setting up books for printing is now very much lower than it was 25 years ago, and it is now much easier to contemplate the thought of running relatively short print runs, and then producing a second and third edition, as the ARHS NSW Division has done with Burrinjuck

Regards,

Frank


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Peter Evans
 

The photo of the derelict VB loco was copied by me from a print owned by
former long-time LRRSA member Allan Stebbing, and he told me that the
picture was taken many years ago in Tasmania. No other identification was
given, except that the man standing next to the loco was a friend of his and
was, I think, the operator of a granite quarry at Harcourt (near Bendigo in
Victoria). The photo was duly filed with that information attached, and that
information was incorporated into the file name of the scan when scanners
became available. (I use the same file name system that Mike McCarthy uses,
which has a standard format to incorporate the data for the photo into the
file name).



Sorry, but that's all I know! It was only later on that I connected the
picture with that of what is obviously the same loco shown in an early LR.



Peter Evans

Production Management, Corporate Writing and Heritage Services

0407 537 837

www.peterevans.com.au <http://www.peterevans.com.au/>

peter@peterevans.com.au



P please consider the environment before printing.
This electronic mail contains information that is privileged and
confidential, intended only for use of the individual(s) or entity named. If
you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, copying or use of the
information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission
in error please delete it immediately from your system and inform me by
return email and destroy the original message


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Richard,

At 09:33 AM 27/04/2010, you wrote:

You observe that we cannot be sure that it actually was in Tasmania, so it would be interesting to know why Peter Evans' photo of the loco, when derelict, is noted as 'somewhere in Tasmania'.
I cannot imagine that it would be anywhere else in Australia but Tasmania. If it is 3ft 6in gauge (and that is another assumption) with those strange buffers the only other state where they might be needed is Queensland. And I cannot recall any Queensland operations which involved the use of Government rolling stock.

The only reason I raised that issue was because of the response from Ken Milbourne. I now have a further response from Ken:

Thanks for the photo Frank. It certainly looks kike the remnants of the loco shown in the former picture. Neither the location, the type of scrub nor the human being ring any bells with me. Am I correct in assuming that we have no definite proof that either photo was shot in Tasmania? I will make some checks of boiler records and of my earlier notes to see if any vertical boilers could match or even approximate to the subject in question.
Circular Head now seems more likely to me than Tyler's at Ida Bay. That would explain the buffers.

Regards,

Frank


Re: Unidentified locomotive

rthorne475
 

Dear Frank,

Well, it's been interesting ...but it seems that we are no further forward in identifying it; just more possibilities.  You observe that we cannot be sure that it actually was in Tasmania, so it would be interesting to know why Peter Evans' photo of the loco, when derelict, is noted as 'somewhere in Tasmania'.  If Peter can advise on that, we may at least be able to state with some certainty that it was in Tasmania.  Whatever the outcome, many thanks to all those who have responded so readily.

Best wishes,

Richard

--- On Mon, 26/4/10, fstamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com> wrote:

From: fstamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: Unidentified locomotive
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Date: Monday, 26 April, 2010, 21:57







 













Hello Richard,



I now have responses from Ken Milbourne and Tony Parnell which cast doubt on the possibility that this is Tyler's log-hauler/locomoti ve, and indicate that it is more likely to be in the Circular Head (North-west) district.



Here is Ken Milbourne's response:



------------ -

Hello Frank,



Once again the mysterious VB loco picture has surfaced. It has given me much worry over 30 years. John Buckland was the first to 'inflict' this problem before me. I note that the general opinion is currently running in favour of Tyler's VB loco/log hauler. I am far from convinced. There is a newspaper description of the log hauler/loco which implies that log hauling was one of its functions. As such it incorporated a hauling drum which is not evident in the photo. The description also mentions twin cylinders and traversing gear which had to be engaged before the machine could propel itself along the track.



At some time {probably in the late 1890s) Tylers tramway and one VB engine were damaged by a bushfire. Thereafter I have no further notes on its subsequent history. The vegetation and terrain does not appear to match any known Tasmanian location where a VB loco is known to have worked. The buffers and hook coupling certainly suggest a location other than southern Tasmania which leaves Circular Head as a possible location. J S Lee certainly had a VB loco/log hauler. Records suggest that it came from the UK and had been made by the same firm as had built his well documented "Coffee Pot".



The attire of the young lady and the driver (probably her father) is totally out of keeping with the labourer (part hidden by the boiler). I have not seen the photo showing the engine in a derelict state as mentioned in the earlier messages and would like to do so.

As a parting thought the principal of the Burnie TAFE told me in 1986 how as a child he had played on two derelict VB engines in Smithton. I have assumed that one was the "Coffee Pot" and the other the loco/log hauler.



While still unconvinced that the picture was taken in Tasmania I think that if it was, Circular Head is a more likely location than Southern Tasmania.



Best wishes



Ken.

------------ --------- --------- --------- -



and here is Tony Parnell's response:



------------ --------- --------- --------



Frank

From memory, this photo has been in light railways many years ago but

when it was in the small format. It was thought to be "Coffee Pot" and the photo was taken on Lee's line to the Cuba sawmill near Smithton but other photos made this doubtful (I cannot remember why but possibly because it had buffers). It could be the vertical boilered loco from Wyetts tramway from Beauty Point to Beaconsfield. However other locos on that line had centre couplings and no outside buffers. The Wyetts loco was later sold to South Mt Cameron where it is thought to have been used as a stationary engine.



Tony Parnell



------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------



So summarising all of that, it seems more likely to be north-west Tasmania than southern Tasmania but there is no certainty. (Of course it is also possible that it is not Tasmania at all ...!)



Regards,



Frank



--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups. com.au, richard horne <rthorne475@ ...> wrote:

Frank and Mike,
Thank you for your prompt responses.  I'll look forward to seeing if Ken Milbourne and the other Tasmanian experts can add anything.
Regards,
Richard
--- On Sun, 25/4/10, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@ ...> wrote:
From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@ ...>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups. com.au
Cc: "Ken Milbourne" <KJMilbourne@ ...>, "Tony Parnell" <judy.parnell@ ...>, "Scott Clennett" <scottclennett@ ...>
Date: Sunday, 25 April, 2010, 9:41
 
Hello Mike,
Thanks very much for that.
Based on your information, the information in "Narrow Gauge
Downunder" No.16, and the style of the loco, I think it is Tyler's
vertical-boilered log hauler/locomotive built by Kennedy & Son. The
buffers are weird, but the hook coupling is similar to the coupling
arrangement on the Markham vertical boilered locomotive which Tyler
purchased. The fact that they both had the same coupling arrangement
might be significant, and it is unusual for a timber tramway, where
link and pin was more normal. The loco in the picture seems to fit
the description of Tyler's log-hauler/locomoti ve perfectly.
The presence of the buffers might be explained by the builders having
used an existing underframe of some sort.
Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a
suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea.
Perhaps that is where the picture of the loco in derelict condition was taken.
It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian
timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo
Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable.
Regards,
Frank
At 10:59 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:
Frank,
This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64,
April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L
Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.
The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has
an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict
condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of
Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought
most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers
of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a
locomotive.
cheers,
Mike Bickford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford"
<<mailto:frank. stamford% 40bigpond. com>frank.stamford@ bigpond.com>
To: <<mailto:LRRSA% 40yahoogroups. com.au>LRRSA@ yahoogroups. com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
Hello Richard,
A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:
<http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc>http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.
I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.
On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.
I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.
Regards,
Frank
At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:
I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.
I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.
Richard Horne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


2010 Modelling the Railways of Queensland Convention Details

A C Lynn Zelmer
 

G'day all (with apologies for cross-posting)

The final details for the 2010 Modelling the Railways of Queensland Convention, 28 August 2010, have been posted on the convention web site.
http://qldrailheritage.com/mrqc/

It's a one day event with an interesting mix of mainline (3'6") and narrow gauge (2' sugar cane) plus a steam of basic modelling information. Local layout visits on the following day.

Please pass the information on to others who might be interested.

Happy modelling,
Lynn
--
Lynn Zelmer
Box 1414, Rockhampton QLD 4700 Australia
http://www.zelmeroz.com


Re: Mis-Fires, Apologies, and mysteriously shape-changing-wheels

John Browning
 

Dear Prof, Frank and all



I look forward to Frank's comments on the relics that may have been part of
the 'Super Sentinel' and before that Skinner & Jolley's locomotive (LR 211
p.21). I found it very difficult to discern much detail from the smaller
photos. Hopefully Scott's very interesting article was just a 'taster' and
in the new book they will appear in larger format.



However, in relation to the Fordson locomotive on page 24, the features on
the front of the chassis appear to be identical in both the colour photo
taken at Triabunna and the black and white photo showing it 'distraught' at
Raminea(?). I suppose an interesting question is whether more than one of
them was built but I doubt if Scott would document such a significant move
without supporting evidence.



Certainly, the evidence of 'knowledgeable' locals in oral history always
needs to be tempered by other sources. There were quite a few early
enthusiasts who were assured that 'such and such' a Queensland cane loco
served in the Western Front in France, or even at the Panama Canal, when
they had never been out of the state since arriving here new from the
factory overseas.



This reminds me of the risk that Scott Clennett is taking in going to press
with his discoveries, which I keenly look forward to seeing. Working in a
similar project on the Queensland cane industry, I am sure of two things.
The first is that the author will make inadvertent mistakes in documenting
the history for a whole variety of reasons. The second is that there is
nothing like publication to flush out new knowledge from those who would
challenge or correct the author's efforts. While in one sense to be dreaded
because no one likes to be shown up as having made mistakes (sometimes
obvious ones in hindsight), there is a great benefit in having the record
corrected and our knowledge expanded.



I know that a significant amount of research on bush tramways has been done
in Tasmania and I sincerely hope we will see much of the fruits of this
appearing in print in the future.





John






logo



John Browning

PO Box 99

Annerley 4103

Queensland

Australia









Phone +61 (0)7 3255 9084

Mobile 0407 069 199


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Richard,

I now have responses from Ken Milbourne and Tony Parnell which cast doubt on the possibility that this is Tyler's log-hauler/locomotive, and indicate that it is more likely to be in the Circular Head (North-west) district.

Here is Ken Milbourne's response:

-------------
Hello Frank,

Once again the mysterious VB loco picture has surfaced. It has given me much worry over 30 years. John Buckland was the first to 'inflict' this problem before me. I note that the general opinion is currently running in favour of Tyler's VB loco/log hauler. I am far from convinced. There is a newspaper description of the log hauler/loco which implies that log hauling was one of its functions. As such it incorporated a hauling drum which is not evident in the photo. The description also mentions twin cylinders and traversing gear which had to be engaged before the machine could propel itself along the track.

At some time {probably in the late 1890s) Tylers tramway and one VB engine were damaged by a bushfire. Thereafter I have no further notes on its subsequent history. The vegetation and terrain does not appear to match any known Tasmanian location where a VB loco is known to have worked. The buffers and hook coupling certainly suggest a location other than southern Tasmania which leaves Circular Head as a possible location. J S Lee certainly had a VB loco/log hauler. Records suggest that it came from the UK and had been made by the same firm as had built his well documented "Coffee Pot".

The attire of the young lady and the driver (probably her father) is totally out of keeping with the labourer (part hidden by the boiler). I have not seen the photo showing the engine in a derelict state as mentioned in the earlier messages and would like to do so.
As a parting thought the principal of the Burnie TAFE told me in 1986 how as a child he had played on two derelict VB engines in Smithton. I have assumed that one was the "Coffee Pot" and the other the loco/log hauler.

While still unconvinced that the picture was taken in Tasmania I think that if it was, Circular Head is a more likely location than Southern Tasmania.


Best wishes


Ken.
----------------------------------------

and here is Tony Parnell's response:

--------------------------------------

Frank
From memory, this photo has been in light railways many years ago but
when it was in the small format. It was thought to be "Coffee Pot" and the photo was taken on Lee's line to the Cuba sawmill near Smithton but other photos made this doubtful (I cannot remember why but possibly because it had buffers). It could be the vertical boilered loco from Wyetts tramway from Beauty Point to Beaconsfield. However other locos on that line had centre couplings and no outside buffers. The Wyetts loco was later sold to South Mt Cameron where it is thought to have been used as a stationary engine.

Tony Parnell

------------------------------------------------

So summarising all of that, it seems more likely to be north-west Tasmania than southern Tasmania but there is no certainty. (Of course it is also possible that it is not Tasmania at all ...!)

Regards,

Frank

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, richard horne <rthorne475@...> wrote:

Frank and Mike,

Thank you for your prompt responses.  I'll look forward to seeing if Ken Milbourne and the other Tasmanian experts can add anything.

Regards,

Richard

--- On Sun, 25/4/10, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Cc: "Ken Milbourne" <KJMilbourne@...>, "Tony Parnell" <judy.parnell@...>, "Scott Clennett" <scottclennett@...>
Date: Sunday, 25 April, 2010, 9:41







 











Hello Mike,



Thanks very much for that.



Based on your information, the information in "Narrow Gauge

Downunder" No.16, and the style of the loco, I think it is Tyler's

vertical-boilered log hauler/locomotive built by Kennedy & Son. The

buffers are weird, but the hook coupling is similar to the coupling

arrangement on the Markham vertical boilered locomotive which Tyler

purchased. The fact that they both had the same coupling arrangement

might be significant, and it is unusual for a timber tramway, where

link and pin was more normal. The loco in the picture seems to fit

the description of Tyler's log-hauler/locomoti ve perfectly.



The presence of the buffers might be explained by the builders having

used an existing underframe of some sort.



Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a

suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea.

Perhaps that is where the picture of the loco in derelict condition was taken.



It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian

timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo

Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable.



Regards,



Frank



At 10:59 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:

Frank,
This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64,
April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L
Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.
The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has
an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict
condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of
Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought
most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers
of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a
locomotive.
cheers,
Mike Bickford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford"
<<mailto:frank. stamford% 40bigpond. com>frank.stamford@ bigpond.com>
To: <<mailto:LRRSA% 40yahoogroups. com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups. com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
Hello Richard,
A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:
<http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc>http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.
I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.
On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.
I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.
Regards,
Frank
At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:
I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.
I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.
Richard Horne
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Bruce,

The vertical boilered locomotive in the Tasmanian
Transport Museum is identified, and was described
in an article in "Light Railways" No.175, January
2004. It was built by Oliver & Co. Chesterfield,
England in 1889. Its first owner appears to have
been Tyler & Co. of Ida Bay, who took delivery of
such a locomotive in 1890. The unidentified
vertical boiler loco also appears to have first
belonged to Tylere & Co. since it answers the
description of a log hauler/locomotive built for
them by Kennedy & Son, Hobart. The similarity of
the two units might not be co-incidental. Kennedy
& Son may perhaps have used the Oliver & Co.
locomotive as a model. That would seem logical.

Regards,

Frank

At 10:33 AM 26/04/2010, you wrote:


Gents,

You may wish to contact the Tasmanian Transport Museum for more information
on a potential solution to this question. Back in 1988, I designed a new
welded-construction replacement vertical boiler for a loco similar to that
shown in the photos (which I believe was actually built to get it running),
so they may be able to assist with this. The vertical boilered loco that I
designed the new boiler for was very similar to that shown in the photos.
Hope this is of some help.

Kind regards,

Bruce Rankin

From:
<mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
[mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf
Of Frank Stamford
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:40 AM
To: <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re: Unidentified locomotive

Hello John,

At 09:21 PM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


Dear Frank,

I would respectfully suggest that Scott Clennett's information may be in
error,
I do not think you comment is justified.

The only information I quoted from Scott Clennett's book was:

"Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a
suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea."

He does not make any statement of fact, he is reporting a suggestion,
and certainly makes no claim to it being fact.

And indeed there were a few things "of note" in his recent LRRSA article
that may bear further inspection...
You need to back up your assertion with facts, otherwise it is not
helpful. You could say exactly the same thing of my recent writings
in "Light Railways" and your statement would be just as true but
equally unhelpful.

In a previous email on this subject I said:

"It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian
timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo
Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable."

I think I had very good reason to say that. In both Victoria and
Tasmania there are only a handful of people seriously involved in
timber tramway research. In both states the subject is vast and in
many areas incredibly complicated, with layers upon layers of
succeeding operators, very limited written records, rapidly decaying
remnants - which in many cases are extremely difficult to access, few
living survivors of the era, and poorly identified photographs.

For around a quarter of a century now the Victorian researchers have
voluntarily formed themselves into a sort of loose team, because it
dawned on them that the subject was too complex to be handled on an
individual basis. Each member of the team selected an area to
specialise in. In the process of researching they often uncover
information relating to other areas. A process of sharing and
exchange of information was established and continues. In some cases
vast swathes of information changed hands because it could be made
better use of to others in the team. At times there was doubt about
who was covering small regions on the borders of areas being
researched by different people. In such cases discussions took place
to decide who was best placed to cover that region. At times one
person handed a region to another, because he felt it was a better
fit. When manuscripts are prepared for publication they are
voluntarily submitted to others in the team for review and critique.
As a result when a book is published it very rarely brings forth much
in the way of correspondence relating to errors.

That process has led to the publication of at least six major books
on Victorian timber tramways, and the subject is far from exhausted.

In the case of Tasmania I believe the subject is equally as extensive
and equally as complex. There is the potential for many major books,
far beyond the capacity for any one person to handle successfully.
Not just because of the size of the task, but much more so because of
the complexity and difficulty of finding information. So far there is
no equivalent of the "loose team" approach in Tasmania, and I am
convinced there is a need for it. It is extremely frustrating that we
do not have a team of co-operative knowledgeable reviewers to
critique the work of authors writing on Tasmanian timber tramways. In
the case of Scott's forthcoming book, it covers a very small area of
Tasmania, but one of daunting complexity. Ultimately there is enough
material in that small area for several major books. Scott's book
will be pioneering the way, and hopefully laying the foundations for
others to delve into a smaller area and produce more detailed
history. It is unreasonable for you to expect the book to be devoid
of all mistakes, there are mistakes in the books I have been involved
in: "Powelltown", and "Arsenic and Molasses", but I still think they
should have been published.

Regards,

Frank

Happy Researching and Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Mornington Peninsular railways

David Axup
 

G'day John,



The line along Trueman's Road was from a lime kiln part of which was still
there in the late 40's and early 50's. Part of the right of way was also
still there as well as some narrow gauge wheel sets. As a child I used to
go there with some mates to catch tadpoles in the ponds at the kiln. I went
looking for the remains about 20 years ago but couldn't find anything.



Not sure if that is because I was looking in the wrong place or what had
been there was removed as the area developed.



I have been unable to find anything, other than the 1930's map referring to
the line.



There was supposed to be a jetty near Trueman's Road but, like the one at
Canterbury between Rye and Blairgowrie, it was long gone in the late 40's.
The map does not show a jetty but it does show a beacon which, putting on my
Master's cap, would indicate that there was probably a jetty at some time as
otherwise there would be no reason to put in a beacon as a navigation mark
as navigation in shore by anything other than small craft cannot be made in
that area. Perhaps there had been a deeper channel.



Then again what is shown as the Lime and Fertilizer works on the map may
have been the reason for the line. In the late 40's and 50's there was a
plaster works [Wilsons] on the corner of Trueman's Road and the Nepean
Highway.



I'd love to find out more about the Trueman's Road line if anyone knows
anymore about it.



Cheers,



David

From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf
Of John Cleverdon
Sent: Monday, 26 April 2010 10:22 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: Mornington Peninsular railways





Hello all,
If you look at the 'Maps and Diagrams' directory (under 'Photo Albums'
on the LRRSA Yahoo website) you will see a 1930's map of a tramway
running along Truemans Road, put online by Phil Rickard.

However, this would be 3-4 km (?) east of Rye Pier.

I was also able to get a copy of the "Victorian Historical' with the
Dromana/Rye/Sorrento tramways from the local Historical Society last
weekend.

Regards,
John
--
John Cleverdon
Mornington Peninsula, Victoria
John's web page: http://users.cdi.com.au/~johnc/


Re: Mis-Fires, Apologies, and mysteriously shape-changing-wheels

Frank Stamford
 

Good morning John,

Thanks for that.

You raise some very interesting points below, which I will follow up.

However it may take a couple of days, as I think it might need some detailed study to try and arrive at a conclusion. At present I am deeply embedded in writing copy for a fund-raising leaflet for Climax locomotive 1694.

As a general comment I thought Scott's article on wheelsets was extremely interesting, and covered new ground. The dimensional data would certainly be of use to railway modellers.

The "bell" wheels seem to be of a type unique to Tasmania, and needed to be recorded. They are very different to the traditional pole-road wheels of North America.

Regards,

Frank

At 10:39 AM 26/04/2010, you wrote:


Dear Frank,

My sincere apolgies to both you and Scott.
I agree I've mis-fired on this one.

That said, I'd love to get your thoughts on the pic on the bottom of page 21 of LR 211.

Put simply, if I read the caption correctly,
the S&J mill loco wheels,
(offset tread/spoke relationship, cranks),

became the front wheels of the Super Sentinel/"Harlot"
(Visibly flush tread/spoke relationship, cranks),

and ended up in the sawmill display area in the main photo,
(offset/dished tread/spoke relationship,
possible visible oxy'd-off crank on the wheelset closest to camera),

but under the frame of what would most reasonably be a tractor-loco frame (Note the fairlead below the frame, approx on centreline. This kept the chain which was used on some tractor-locos to transfer drive to the "first log bogie").

If I am interpreting the caption correctly,
IE that these wheelsets are one and the same thru all 3 pics,
then the visible differences of the wheels as shown leaves me at best, very confused...
(However, as we've already agreed, making comments based on such confusion is not advisable).

I'm also intriguied with the idea that the Fordson tractor loco at Triabunna (page 24, bottom), is from Dover. A conversation with the Forestry Tas officers in the Triabunna offices in Nov '09,
where the loco is now on display,
confirmed that it was a local (to Triabunna) unit, retrieved from a tramway which ran thru the scrub a few hundred metres on the western side of the A3, accross from the current-day Forestry Tas offices.

But as you rightly point out,
apart from looking at the evidence as it is provided,
(can't say I've ever seen a cast curl-spoke wheel change tread/spoke offset over it's lifetime before without an associated total write-off failure...)

I need to accept the info as served,
until/unless better/more reliable/confirmed info is recieved or discovered...

Again, my sincere apologies...

Happy Researching,
Aiming to improve my reaction impulse,
John Dimitrievich
aka "Prof Klyzlr"


Mis-Fires, Apologies, and mysteriously shape-changing-wheels

loggingloco1 <johnd@...>
 

Dear Frank,

My sincere apolgies to both you and Scott.
I agree I've mis-fired on this one.

That said, I'd love to get your thoughts on the pic on the bottom of page 21 of LR 211.

Put simply, if I read the caption correctly,
the S&J mill loco wheels,
(offset tread/spoke relationship, cranks),

became the front wheels of the Super Sentinel/"Harlot"
(Visibly flush tread/spoke relationship, cranks),

and ended up in the sawmill display area in the main photo,
(offset/dished tread/spoke relationship,
possible visible oxy'd-off crank on the wheelset closest to camera),

but under the frame of what would most reasonably be a tractor-loco frame (Note the fairlead below the frame, approx on centreline. This kept the chain which was used on some tractor-locos to transfer drive to the "first log bogie").

If I am interpreting the caption correctly,
IE that these wheelsets are one and the same thru all 3 pics,
then the visible differences of the wheels as shown leaves me at best, very confused...
(However, as we've already agreed, making comments based on such confusion is not advisable).

I'm also intriguied with the idea that the Fordson tractor loco at Triabunna (page 24, bottom), is from Dover. A conversation with the Forestry Tas officers in the Triabunna offices in Nov '09,
where the loco is now on display,
confirmed that it was a local (to Triabunna) unit, retrieved from a tramway which ran thru the scrub a few hundred metres on the western side of the A3, accross from the current-day Forestry Tas offices.

But as you rightly point out,
apart from looking at the evidence as it is provided,
(can't say I've ever seen a cast curl-spoke wheel change tread/spoke offset over it's lifetime before without an associated total write-off failure...)

I need to accept the info as served,
until/unless better/more reliable/confirmed info is recieved or discovered...

Again, my sincere apologies...

Happy Researching,
Aiming to improve my reaction impulse,
John Dimitrievich
aka "Prof Klyzlr"







--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...> wrote:


Hello John,

At 09:21 PM 25/04/2010, you wrote:

I do not think you comment is justified.
SNIP

He does not make any statement of fact, he is reporting a suggestion,
and certainly makes no claim to it being fact.
...

You need to back up your assertion with facts, otherwise it is not
helpful. You could say exactly the same thing of my recent writings
in "Light Railways" and your statement would be just as true but
equally unhelpful.
SNIP

Regards,
Frank


Re: Unidentified locomotive

bjr2105
 

Gents,



You may wish to contact the Tasmanian Transport Museum for more information
on a potential solution to this question. Back in 1988, I designed a new
welded-construction replacement vertical boiler for a loco similar to that
shown in the photos (which I believe was actually built to get it running),
so they may be able to assist with this. The vertical boilered loco that I
designed the new boiler for was very similar to that shown in the photos.
Hope this is of some help.



Kind regards,

Bruce Rankin



From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf
Of Frank Stamford
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 9:40 AM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Re: Unidentified locomotive






Hello John,

At 09:21 PM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


Dear Frank,

I would respectfully suggest that Scott Clennett's information may be in
error,
I do not think you comment is justified.

The only information I quoted from Scott Clennett's book was:

"Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a
suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea."

He does not make any statement of fact, he is reporting a suggestion,
and certainly makes no claim to it being fact.

And indeed there were a few things "of note" in his recent LRRSA article
that may bear further inspection...
You need to back up your assertion with facts, otherwise it is not
helpful. You could say exactly the same thing of my recent writings
in "Light Railways" and your statement would be just as true but
equally unhelpful.

In a previous email on this subject I said:

"It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian
timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo
Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable."

I think I had very good reason to say that. In both Victoria and
Tasmania there are only a handful of people seriously involved in
timber tramway research. In both states the subject is vast and in
many areas incredibly complicated, with layers upon layers of
succeeding operators, very limited written records, rapidly decaying
remnants - which in many cases are extremely difficult to access, few
living survivors of the era, and poorly identified photographs.

For around a quarter of a century now the Victorian researchers have
voluntarily formed themselves into a sort of loose team, because it
dawned on them that the subject was too complex to be handled on an
individual basis. Each member of the team selected an area to
specialise in. In the process of researching they often uncover
information relating to other areas. A process of sharing and
exchange of information was established and continues. In some cases
vast swathes of information changed hands because it could be made
better use of to others in the team. At times there was doubt about
who was covering small regions on the borders of areas being
researched by different people. In such cases discussions took place
to decide who was best placed to cover that region. At times one
person handed a region to another, because he felt it was a better
fit. When manuscripts are prepared for publication they are
voluntarily submitted to others in the team for review and critique.
As a result when a book is published it very rarely brings forth much
in the way of correspondence relating to errors.

That process has led to the publication of at least six major books
on Victorian timber tramways, and the subject is far from exhausted.

In the case of Tasmania I believe the subject is equally as extensive
and equally as complex. There is the potential for many major books,
far beyond the capacity for any one person to handle successfully.
Not just because of the size of the task, but much more so because of
the complexity and difficulty of finding information. So far there is
no equivalent of the "loose team" approach in Tasmania, and I am
convinced there is a need for it. It is extremely frustrating that we
do not have a team of co-operative knowledgeable reviewers to
critique the work of authors writing on Tasmanian timber tramways. In
the case of Scott's forthcoming book, it covers a very small area of
Tasmania, but one of daunting complexity. Ultimately there is enough
material in that small area for several major books. Scott's book
will be pioneering the way, and hopefully laying the foundations for
others to delve into a smaller area and produce more detailed
history. It is unreasonable for you to expect the book to be devoid
of all mistakes, there are mistakes in the books I have been involved
in: "Powelltown", and "Arsenic and Molasses", but I still think they
should have been published.

Regards,

Frank

Happy Researching and Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr


Re: Mornington Peninsular railways

John Cleverdon <johnc@...>
 

Hello all,
If you look at the 'Maps and Diagrams' directory (under 'Photo Albums'
on the LRRSA Yahoo website) you will see a 1930's map of a tramway
running along Truemans Road, put online by Phil Rickard.

However, this would be 3-4 km (?) east of Rye Pier.

I was also able to get a copy of the "Victorian Historical' with the
Dromana/Rye/Sorrento tramways from the local Historical Society last
weekend.

Regards,
John
--
John Cleverdon
Mornington Peninsula, Victoria
John's web page: http://users.cdi.com.au/~johnc/


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Richard,

Peter Evans has sent me a copy of the photograph of this loco derelict "somewhere in Tasmania", date unknown.

I have uploaded it to the Photos section, it can be found here:

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/LRRSA/photos/album/291354381/pic/list

By the way, thanks for raising this query. It has come at an opportune time. I think the photos probably belong in the forthcoming book.

Regards,

Frank

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, richard horne <rthorne475@...> wrote:

Frank and Mike,

Thank you for your prompt responses.  I'll look forward to seeing if Ken Milbourne and the other Tasmanian experts can add anything.

Regards,

Richard

--- On Sun, 25/4/10, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Cc: "Ken Milbourne" <KJMilbourne@...>, "Tony Parnell" <judy.parnell@...>, "Scott Clennett" <scottclennett@...>
Date: Sunday, 25 April, 2010, 9:41







 











Hello Mike,



Thanks very much for that.



Based on your information, the information in "Narrow Gauge

Downunder" No.16, and the style of the loco, I think it is Tyler's

vertical-boilered log hauler/locomotive built by Kennedy & Son. The

buffers are weird, but the hook coupling is similar to the coupling

arrangement on the Markham vertical boilered locomotive which Tyler

purchased. The fact that they both had the same coupling arrangement

might be significant, and it is unusual for a timber tramway, where

link and pin was more normal. The loco in the picture seems to fit

the description of Tyler's log-hauler/locomoti ve perfectly.



The presence of the buffers might be explained by the builders having

used an existing underframe of some sort.



Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a

suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea.

Perhaps that is where the picture of the loco in derelict condition was taken.



It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian

timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo

Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable.



Regards,



Frank



At 10:59 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:

Frank,
This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64,
April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L
Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.
The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has
an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict
condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of
Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought
most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers
of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a
locomotive.
cheers,
Mike Bickford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford"
<<mailto:frank. stamford% 40bigpond. com>frank.stamford@ bigpond.com>
To: <<mailto:LRRSA% 40yahoogroups. com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups. com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
Hello Richard,
A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:
<http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc>http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.
I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.
On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.
I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.
Regards,
Frank
At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:
I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.
I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.
Richard Horne
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello John,

At 09:21 PM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


Dear Frank,

I would respectfully suggest that Scott Clennett's information may be in
error,
I do not think you comment is justified.

The only information I quoted from Scott Clennett's book was:

"Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea."

He does not make any statement of fact, he is reporting a suggestion, and certainly makes no claim to it being fact.


And indeed there were a few things "of note" in his recent LRRSA article
that may bear further inspection...
You need to back up your assertion with facts, otherwise it is not helpful. You could say exactly the same thing of my recent writings in "Light Railways" and your statement would be just as true but equally unhelpful.

In a previous email on this subject I said:

"It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian
timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo
Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable."

I think I had very good reason to say that. In both Victoria and Tasmania there are only a handful of people seriously involved in timber tramway research. In both states the subject is vast and in many areas incredibly complicated, with layers upon layers of succeeding operators, very limited written records, rapidly decaying remnants - which in many cases are extremely difficult to access, few living survivors of the era, and poorly identified photographs.

For around a quarter of a century now the Victorian researchers have voluntarily formed themselves into a sort of loose team, because it dawned on them that the subject was too complex to be handled on an individual basis. Each member of the team selected an area to specialise in. In the process of researching they often uncover information relating to other areas. A process of sharing and exchange of information was established and continues. In some cases vast swathes of information changed hands because it could be made better use of to others in the team. At times there was doubt about who was covering small regions on the borders of areas being researched by different people. In such cases discussions took place to decide who was best placed to cover that region. At times one person handed a region to another, because he felt it was a better fit. When manuscripts are prepared for publication they are voluntarily submitted to others in the team for review and critique. As a result when a book is published it very rarely brings forth much in the way of correspondence relating to errors.

That process has led to the publication of at least six major books on Victorian timber tramways, and the subject is far from exhausted.

In the case of Tasmania I believe the subject is equally as extensive and equally as complex. There is the potential for many major books, far beyond the capacity for any one person to handle successfully. Not just because of the size of the task, but much more so because of the complexity and difficulty of finding information. So far there is no equivalent of the "loose team" approach in Tasmania, and I am convinced there is a need for it. It is extremely frustrating that we do not have a team of co-operative knowledgeable reviewers to critique the work of authors writing on Tasmanian timber tramways. In the case of Scott's forthcoming book, it covers a very small area of Tasmania, but one of daunting complexity. Ultimately there is enough material in that small area for several major books. Scott's book will be pioneering the way, and hopefully laying the foundations for others to delve into a smaller area and produce more detailed history. It is unreasonable for you to expect the book to be devoid of all mistakes, there are mistakes in the books I have been involved in: "Powelltown", and "Arsenic and Molasses", but I still think they should have been published.

Regards,

Frank






Happy Researching and Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr


Re: Unidentified locomotive

John Dimitrievich <johnd@...>
 

Dear Frank,



I would respectfully suggest that Scott Clennett's information may be in
error,

And indeed there were a few things "of note" in his recent LRRSA article
that may bear further inspection...



Happy Researching and Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr


Re: Unidentified locomotive

rthorne475
 

Frank and Mike,

Thank you for your prompt responses.  I'll look forward to seeing if Ken Milbourne and the other Tasmanian experts can add anything.

Regards,

Richard

--- On Sun, 25/4/10, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Cc: "Ken Milbourne" <KJMilbourne@iprimus.com.au>, "Tony Parnell" <judy.parnell@bigpond.com>, "Scott Clennett" <scottclennett@bigpond.com>
Date: Sunday, 25 April, 2010, 9:41







 











Hello Mike,



Thanks very much for that.



Based on your information, the information in "Narrow Gauge

Downunder" No.16, and the style of the loco, I think it is Tyler's

vertical-boilered log hauler/locomotive built by Kennedy & Son. The

buffers are weird, but the hook coupling is similar to the coupling

arrangement on the Markham vertical boilered locomotive which Tyler

purchased. The fact that they both had the same coupling arrangement

might be significant, and it is unusual for a timber tramway, where

link and pin was more normal. The loco in the picture seems to fit

the description of Tyler's log-hauler/locomoti ve perfectly.



The presence of the buffers might be explained by the builders having

used an existing underframe of some sort.



Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a

suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea.

Perhaps that is where the picture of the loco in derelict condition was taken.



It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian

timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo

Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable.



Regards,



Frank



At 10:59 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:

Frank,
This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64,
April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L
Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.
The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has
an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict
condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of
Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought
most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers
of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a
locomotive.
cheers,
Mike Bickford
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford"
<<mailto:frank. stamford% 40bigpond. com>frank.stamford@ bigpond.com>
To: <<mailto:LRRSA% 40yahoogroups. com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups. com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive
Hello Richard,
A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:
<http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc>http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/LRRSA/ photos/album/ 291354381/ pic/367107385/ view?picmode= &mode=tn& order=ordinal& start=1&count= 20&dir=asc
It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.
I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.
On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.
I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.
Regards,
Frank
At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:
I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.
I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.
Richard Horne
























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Mike,

Thanks very much for that.

Based on your information, the information in "Narrow Gauge Downunder" No.16, and the style of the loco, I think it is Tyler's vertical-boilered log hauler/locomotive built by Kennedy & Son. The buffers are weird, but the hook coupling is similar to the coupling arrangement on the Markham vertical boilered locomotive which Tyler purchased. The fact that they both had the same coupling arrangement might be significant, and it is unusual for a timber tramway, where link and pin was more normal. The loco in the picture seems to fit the description of Tyler's log-hauler/locomotive perfectly.

The presence of the buffers might be explained by the builders having used an existing underframe of some sort.

Scott Clennett in his forthcoming book, says that there is a suggestion this log-hauler/loco went to Chesterman's at Raminea. Perhaps that is where the picture of the loco in derelict condition was taken.

It is unfortunate that the most active and knowledgeable Tasmanian timber tramway specialists are apparently not members of this Yahoo Group, as there input to these types of discussions would be valuable.

Regards,

Frank

At 10:59 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


Frank,

This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64,
April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L
Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.

The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has
an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict
condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of
Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought
most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers
of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a
locomotive.

cheers,
Mike Bickford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford" <<mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
To: <<mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive


Hello Richard,

A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:


<http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/LRRSA/photos/album/291354381/pic/367107385/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc>http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/LRRSA/photos/album/291354381/pic/367107385/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.

I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.

On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.

I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.

Regards,

Frank




At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.

Richard Horne


Re: Unidentified locomotive

The Bickfords <womloc4@...>
 

Frank,

This vb loco photo was in an early issue of Light Railways - Number 64, April 1979.
It was a mystery then too - photo source is creditted to A R Lyell, via J L Buckland.
The style of dress of the lady and gent is earlier than the 1920's I feel.

The Winter/Spring 2003 (issue no 16) of Narrow Gauge Downunder magazine has an article by Mark & Angela Fry about vertical boiler locos in Tasmania.
It includes a later (c1930's) photo of the loco in a semi-derelict condition, with a note that the photo was supplied by Peter Evans of Victoria. The earlier photo in LR64 is also mentioned. The loco was thought most likely to have been built c1890 by Kennedy & Sons of Hobart for Tylers of Ida Bay as a log hauler that could also propel itself and be used as a locomotive.

cheers,
Mike Bickford

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stamford" <frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
To: <LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Unidentified locomotive



Hello Richard,

A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:


http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/LRRSA/photos/album/291354381/pic/367107385/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.

I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.

On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.

I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.

Regards,

Frank




At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.

Richard Horne


Re: Unidentified locomotive

Frank Stamford
 

Hello Richard,

A very interesting and very good photograph. A
copy turned 90 degrees can be found here:


http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/LRRSA/photos/album/291354381/pic/367107385/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

It looks as if it should be Tasmanian, and I
would think far-south Tasmania. However it is not
amongst the photographs currently being selected
for Scott Clennett's book on timber tramways of
the far south so I may be wrong.

I am sure I have seen this before but cannot recall where.

On second thoughts though this has the "style" of
far south Tasmania, the double buffers and
centre-link coupling implies use with rolling
stock having those fittings, ie TGR rolling
stock. That excludes the far south, and the far
south-east, and makes me think somewhere in the Derwent Valley is likely.

I will forward it to a couple of Tasmanian LRRSA
members who may not be on the Yahoo Group, and see what eventuates.

Regards,

Frank

At 09:08 AM 25/04/2010, you wrote:


I have posted a photo of an unidentified vertcal
boiler loco on a bush tramway. It was given to
me many years ago by the late John Buckland, who
thought that it might be in Tasmania. The dress
of the young lady suggests that it was taken no later than the 1920s.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to the
identity of the loco and the location.

Richard Horne

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