Re: Pyrmont CSR


Hi Brian and everyone,

What I initially wondered was maybe they just reused the old carriage frame to build the LCT and everything under it and above it was redone.  But it puzzled me as it was seemingly important enough for someone to quote it in the rollingstock list in the 1945 General Appendix. So, I did a bit of checking just now and discovered NSW ‘American Cars’, as an example, had an underframe of four 8in x 3in longitudinal timbers running the full length of the cars between headstocks. These were connected by various cross members and steel rods supporting drawgear etc. Thus cane wagons built using ‘Old Carriage Underframes’ could mean just reusing parts of some or all of these longitudinal timbers and cross pieces? My suspicion now is it was perhaps more of a ‘book entry’ to show the re-use of parts and a way of accounting for the costs of building the cane wagon.


I then wondered about the length of the cane wagon built using carriage underframe (LCT) compared to some carriage types used a possible donors. The LCT was 24ft 6in over buffers and the only coaching stock in the 1969 General Appendix that were anywhere near as short as that was 37ft prison van bogie, 40ft 9.25in Laboratory Test Car (No. L550) and education cars such as Education Cars; Lecture Room 23ft 8 in (Nos 1489, 1492, 1495,1498), Mobile Workshop 43ft 9 in (Nos 1491, 1494, 1497, 1500) and Mobile Workshop 43ft 9in (Nos 1490, 1493, 1496, 1499). Even an LFX was 52 ft 2.5in. Maybe they chopped one car frame to get two cane wagons?


The LCT wagon plan has 24ft 6in over buffers, 20ft 10 body, 3ft 6 in wheels on a 4wheel, not bogie, arrangement. The LCT plan has the text ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ and EE Lucy’s signature so before he retired age of 71 in February 1932


The 1936 Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons etc shows only four LCTs in traffic, 23 CT wagons and two BCT (bogie) and the 1962 NSWGR ‘Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons etc reveals there were 22 CT and 11 BCT in traffic and no LCTs listed in 1962 but the LCT was listed as a vehicle type without quantities in the 1969 General Appendix.


I copied that carriage frame description from P.6 of Wayne Dempsey’s story in Australian Railway History September 2014. The Endnotes show the source as ‘Coaching stock of the NSW railways’, volume 2  by David Cooke [et al], Eveleigh Press.


I think chasing up company details and wagon data helps illustrate how the traffic on long closed lines was handled. In this case we are referring to sugar cane stalks from Crabbes Creek to Condong Mill which was a distance of 27.92 km or 17 miles 28 chains. Peter Neve has supplied 1967 images at Crabbes Ck with loco 5163 with a 4 wheeler cane wagon immediately behind the tender and bogie wagons as well. David Mewes has advised his records show only bogie NSWGR cane wagons at Condong in 1969. So a possible wagon type change between 1967 and 1969?

In the pre Crabbes Creek (1921) era, the NSWGR had high volumes of cane traffic (around 15,000 tons at least annually late 1890s) from between Bangalow and Lismore as well as the Mullumbimby areas before the change from cane to dairy especially once Norco was established. That meant cane wagons were part of the NSWGR fleet at least as far back as 1894 when the Lismore Mullumbimby (15 May 1894) Murwillumbah Condong line (24 December 1894) opened.



Peter Cokley


From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2018 5:37 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

On 05/03/2018 00:21, 'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA] wrote:

But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

I can't see how it would be practical to "swap bogie gear for 4-wheel', as they are so different.

But maybe some old 4-wheel passenger cars were still knocking around? I don't know about Australia, but some 4-wheel passenger cars were still about in the UK in 1945, and 'modern' 4-wheelers were still running around in Germany until well after the war; in fact some new steel bodies were built on the steel frames of wooden bodied 4-wheelers that were destroyed by fire in the bombing, as a way of getting the railways back in action.

Brian Rumary

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