Date   
Did the tourist board record railway enthusiasts?

Alan O'Rourke
 

Noted this in:

Redman R (1972) The Railway Foundry Leeds 1839-1969   EB Wilson – Hudswell Clarke & Co Norwich: Goose & Son

 

[p.50] Ireland, at one time such a railway enthusiast’s paradise that the Tourist Board estimated that after the Second World War, some 300 visitors per year went over for its railways alone, had for its true connosisseurs – “the narrow gauge aficionados” – the giant Hudswell Clarkes of the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway.

 

Mr Redman does not mention his source or whether the tourist board was for NI or Bord Failte. But does this mean that in the late 1940s customs officers were logging railway enthusiasts at the Irish ports:

“Purpose of visit, please, sir?”

“Photographing the West Clare Railway.”

 

Or did they have some check list for spotting the spotters: tweed jacket, gabardine raincoat, camera, note book, Ian Allan ABC…..

 

Rgds Alan

 

 

Re: [00n3modellers] NCC Steam Locos

Alan O'Rourke
 

I’d be up for a set of etches for one of the locos in original condition, but not the rather ugly 2-4-4 rebuild. Just a bit daunted by the chassis with outside Walschaert’s vale gear!

Rgds Alan

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: 00n3modellers@groups.io <00n3modellers@groups.io> on behalf of Colin Rainsbury <lynbarn58@...>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 10:29:33 PM
To: 00n3modellers@groups.io <00n3modellers@groups.io>; IrishThreeFoot@groups.io <IrishThreeFoot@groups.io>
Subject: [00n3modellers] NCC Steam Locos
 
Hi Guys thank you for all your help, I now have drawings for ther S class including the S1 and S2 types. so now a show of hands for any interest to see if Allen can be pursuaded to do some etches of these three types for us.

This does not mean we can ignore the other NCC steam locos either as these will also need doing at some point.

Colin R 

NCC Steam Locos

Colin Rainsbury
 

Hi Guys thank you for all your help, I now have drawings for ther S class including the S1 and S2 types. so now a show of hands for any interest to see if Allen can be pursuaded to do some etches of these three types for us.

This does not mean we can ignore the other NCC steam locos either as these will also need doing at some point.

Colin R 

A few more drawings RE: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Alan O'Rourke
 

For the sake of completeness, three more Ian MacNab drawings:

 

BLR  2-6-0ST

Railways  4(44): 190 Dec 1943

 

WCR 2-6-2T

Railways  4(42): 158 Oct 1943

 

CBPR 2-4-2T

Railways  5(52): 123 Aug1944

 

I don;t have a full set of this magazine, so there may be few more.

 

Peter Manning in Australia has produced excellent drawings of the BLR 2-4-0Ts, 0-6-0Ts and 2-6-0ST from Beyer-Peacock GAs:

peterman@...

 

Although I am happy to be corrected, its seems that fairly good drawings of most Irish NG engines exist except:

 

1. CMLR 4-4-0Ts (other than the second Blarney): not susrprisig as all were scrapped in 1935.

 

2. CLR4-4-0Ts: much more surprising as they lasted into CIE days; two are still with us and several models / kits have e been produced.

 

Rgds Alan

 

_._,_._,_

 

Ballycastle Railway 4-4-2T RE: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Alan O'Rourke
 

For comparison, attach:

 

GA  drawing from Engineering, March 26th, 1909

 

Mr Heaven’s drawing in two parts.

 

Drawing by  Ian McNab, from Railways 4(40): 126 (Aug 1943)

Note A: indicates widening of footplate in front of cylinders.

Drawing shows loco after rebuilding by NCC in 1929

 

Rgds Alan

 

 

From: Laurence Wheeler
Sent: 12 January 2020 12:49
To: IrishThreeFoot@groups.io
Subject: Re: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

 

In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

 

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Alan O'Rourke
 

Sorry if I have missed part of this thread; have been in the Canary isles...quelle hardship, no railways other than a very short modern urban tramway, but sunny, warm and good walking.

 

Mr Heaven’s drawings are of very variable quality, but certainly not in the same league as Des Coakham’s. Some look like they were drawn on the kitchen table with an O-level geometry set; some are more professional. I am not sure of his sources: possibly official weight, rather than GA type drawings. If you are going to use any of his as the basis for a model, I suggest you check carefully with photos and known dimensions.

 

Attach:

A rather small scale scan of the S2 from Fayle H (1946) Narrow Gauge Railways of Ireland London; Greenlake

 

Article from The Locomotive Nov 15th, 1932

 

The NCC weight diags of these engines (again, probably re-drawn after the Blitz) also appear in Bill Scott’s NCC Loco book.

 

Rgds Alan

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Laurence Wheeler
Sent: 12 January 2020 12:49
To: IrishThreeFoot@groups.io
Subject: Re: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

 

In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

 

Re: Invisible green [was RE: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos]

Colin Rainsbury
 

Thanks to everyone involved, I now have access to most of the drawings or I shall have at some point, the only one giving a bit of hassle is the S1 drawing, but I think I will need to consult with photos and known details about this one.

Colin Rainsbury 


On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 15:59, Alan O'Rourke <alanorourke@...> wrote:

Then there was Stroudley’s “improved engine green,” which was yellow ochre. Two theories here:

  • Stroudley was colour-blind.
  • It was his joke that he had invented an “improvement” on the various shades of green used by most other railways: even the Midland painted its engines green until 1883. Over at Crewe, Mr Webb had pre-empted Henry Ford: “You can have your engine any colour you like as long as it’s black.”

 

In its early years the BNCR continued with the Belfast & Ballymena Railway livery of “fairly light green” lined yellow, blue and vermillion. Over the years, the shade used seems to have got darker (Dow, G (1975) Midland Style Historical Model Railway Society, p 88-90 for full details of lining etc). If anyone has The Locomotive Vol 18 for 1912, one issue apparently has an excellent colour plate of CDR 2-6-4T no 21 in lined black livery.

 

According to Bill Scott’s book on NCC locos, the BNCR used a “very dark green” livery, lined crimson, blue and yellow.  I attach a scan of a colour plate of BNCR No 62 which appeared as a frontispiece to the Railway Magazine, May 1903. But, be aware:

  • Colour reproduction in 1903 was not an exact process
  • The print is 117 years old and may have discoloured
  • There may be some distortion in scanning.

 

This looks like a dark green, lined red and cream: I am not convinced I can see any blue lining. In The Ballycastle Lines, EM Patterson calls the BNCR colour “dark laurel green.”

 

After 1903, the MR-NCC introduced the “invisible green” which seems to have been even darker and was described as often appearing almost black, but in brighter light it looked a dark, oily green. My best guess is that this might be close to colour Humbrol sold in the 1970s called “Southern Railway Olive Green.” Scan of sample of this attached, but may also be distorted by scanning. The trouble with “olive green” is that while all black olives are black, “green” ones range from bright sage green through khaki to a dark brownish-green, the colour of some frogs…..okay so maybe “frog-coloured” is not a very helpful descriptive term either.

 

The Portstewart tramway engine preserved in the Streetlife Museum of Transport, in Hull, is in NCC-MR dark green livery, so I will try and get over and match some colour cards later in the year. The other Portstewart tramway loco in Cultra (from what I can find on line) is lettered BNCR, but the livery looks like a very bright, almost emerald, green: maybe an imaginative restoration?

 

After 1924, it is easier as the NCC went over to LMS crimson for passenger engines. Mr Scott does not mention if black was used on goods engines and narrow gauge ones, but the mixed traffic moguls all went into service in crimson lake. Patterson suggests the NG engines were finished in passenger colours under the BNCR and MR-NCC; and the NG compounds were painted crimson lake as shopped in 1925-30. Unlined black was applied to all NG engines painted after the outbreak of WW2.

 

So, there we are…another shade of green to argue about alongside the CIE ones!

 

Rgds Alan

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Laurence Wheeler
Sent: 12 January 2020 12:49
To: IrishThreeFoot@groups.io
Subject: Re: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

 

In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

 

Invisible green [was RE: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos]

Alan O'Rourke
 

Then there was Stroudley’s “improved engine green,” which was yellow ochre. Two theories here:

  • Stroudley was colour-blind.
  • It was his joke that he had invented an “improvement” on the various shades of green used by most other railways: even the Midland painted its engines green until 1883. Over at Crewe, Mr Webb had pre-empted Henry Ford: “You can have your engine any colour you like as long as it’s black.”

 

In its early years the BNCR continued with the Belfast & Ballymena Railway livery of “fairly light green” lined yellow, blue and vermillion. Over the years, the shade used seems to have got darker (Dow, G (1975) Midland Style Historical Model Railway Society, p 88-90 for full details of lining etc). If anyone has The Locomotive Vol 18 for 1912, one issue apparently has an excellent colour plate of CDR 2-6-4T no 21 in lined black livery.

 

According to Bill Scott’s book on NCC locos, the BNCR used a “very dark green” livery, lined crimson, blue and yellow.  I attach a scan of a colour plate of BNCR No 62 which appeared as a frontispiece to the Railway Magazine, May 1903. But, be aware:

  • Colour reproduction in 1903 was not an exact process
  • The print is 117 years old and may have discoloured
  • There may be some distortion in scanning.

 

This looks like a dark green, lined red and cream: I am not convinced I can see any blue lining. In The Ballycastle Lines, EM Patterson calls the BNCR colour “dark laurel green.”

 

After 1903, the MR-NCC introduced the “invisible green” which seems to have been even darker and was described as often appearing almost black, but in brighter light it looked a dark, oily green. My best guess is that this might be close to colour Humbrol sold in the 1970s called “Southern Railway Olive Green.” Scan of sample of this attached, but may also be distorted by scanning. The trouble with “olive green” is that while all black olives are black, “green” ones range from bright sage green through khaki to a dark brownish-green, the colour of some frogs…..okay so maybe “frog-coloured” is not a very helpful descriptive term either.

 

The Portstewart tramway engine preserved in the Streetlife Museum of Transport, in Hull, is in NCC-MR dark green livery, so I will try and get over and match some colour cards later in the year. The other Portstewart tramway loco in Cultra (from what I can find on line) is lettered BNCR, but the livery looks like a very bright, almost emerald, green: maybe an imaginative restoration?

 

After 1924, it is easier as the NCC went over to LMS crimson for passenger engines. Mr Scott does not mention if black was used on goods engines and narrow gauge ones, but the mixed traffic moguls all went into service in crimson lake. Patterson suggests the NG engines were finished in passenger colours under the BNCR and MR-NCC; and the NG compounds were painted crimson lake as shopped in 1925-30. Unlined black was applied to all NG engines painted after the outbreak of WW2.

 

So, there we are…another shade of green to argue about alongside the CIE ones!

 

Rgds Alan

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Laurence Wheeler
Sent: 12 January 2020 12:49
To: IrishThreeFoot@groups.io
Subject: Re: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

 

In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

 

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

G HAMILTON
 

Hi,
John Campbell has completed one electric (gauge 1) S class so far and is still working on G1 live steam versions when I last spoke to him - one of which is for me :)
Regards
Gavin



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: jghamill55@...
Date: 13/01/2020 17:16 (GMT+00:00)
To: IrishThreeFoot@groups.io
Subject: Re: [IrishThreeFoot] NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

I believe that John Campbell built a number of 15mm scale S Class. He certainly has proper drawings if so.

Isle of Man Loco Fittings

elvan4472
 

I am in the process of producing a couple of Isle of Man locos in 7mm scale, is anyone aware of suitable fittings for these engines from kits and parts available for Irish 3ft prototypes, thanks?

 

David

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

jghamill55@...
 

I believe that John Campbell built a number of 15mm scale S Class. He certainly has proper drawings if so. 

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Colin Rainsbury
 

Thanks Laurence looks like another magazine to get

Colin


On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 12:48, Laurence Wheeler <laurence.wheeler35@...> wrote:
In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Laurence Wheeler
 

In a dusty file I have come across a drawing by B. Heaven of the S class compound. Somewhat in the mould of the famous Skinley drawings, but not as good.
I have uploaded two halves of this drawing to the NCC locos file as part a and b. Hope this helps. I love the description if the livery as "invisible green". Tops even some of the more silly names like "improved engine green".
The MRN article referred to was August 1965. There is also a comprehensive article in Railway World August 1986.
Laurence.

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

G HAMILTON
 

Hi Colin,
I think the magazine article I am thinking of was in 'Railway Bylines'
Regards
Gavin

On Saturday, 11 January 2020, 23:31:55 GMT, Colin Rainsbury <lynbarn58@...> wrote:


Thanks Gavin for the notes, I do have a drawing from an old MRN I think it is from the 60's for the S class as built, but I need to check it out.

Colin

On Sat, 11 Jan 2020 at 21:52, G HAMILTON via Groups.Io <g.n.hamilton=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Colin

The original S class drawings were available from the Manchester museum, though you might have to search for order number 7511, anything that was in LMS/NCC offices at York Road was destroyed in the 1941 air raids so you can probably on to a loser, I've been seaching for drawings of the LMS/NCC brake vans used on the Ballycastle line and all I have been able to find are some, possibly apprentice drawings, done in the last days of that line and the photographs - undated - which show that the vans were modified 'over the years' and none of the photographs - that I've seen show any signs of lettering on a 'type 23' brake van. As for the Kitson 4-4-2T's I've no idea where any drawings might be found - especially after York Road had 'amended them' there are some late photographs of 113 being used on the Ballyclare Papermill trains - giben that it had a bad reputation for 'loosing it's feet, the fact that crews would not use the S2 instead tells you a lot about how bad that really was, I think I saw an article by Desmond Coakham (I think) stating that 110 was in Larne shed, still in Red Livery in 1945 but he didn't have the nerve/cheek to ask the crew of 113 to pull 110 out for photography. I have seen a photograph of S1 #42 in UTA livery in Larne shed so it looks like this livery was applied after the Larne-Ballclare line was closed.

Have Fun.
Gavin

On Saturday, 11 January 2020, 21:11:36 GMT, Colin Rainsbury <lynbarn58@...> wrote:


Hi guys I am gathering as much information about these locos with the plan to persuade a well known brass etch parts manufactures to think about doing these for us.

 

I have got the feelers out all over the place, that is if you have already come across my request for information. I am hoping that both the Manchester Museum of Science and Technology can help with the Beyer Peacock drawings and the Northern Irish Transport Museum can help with drawings of the above locos.


But if anyone has a works drawing of any of the NCC locos outside of the published books on this subject please get in touch, there are so many variations already with in the S class so having as much detail to hand is really important thanks.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Colin Rainsbury
 

Thanks Gavin for the notes, I do have a drawing from an old MRN I think it is from the 60's for the S class as built, but I need to check it out.

Colin


On Sat, 11 Jan 2020 at 21:52, G HAMILTON via Groups.Io <g.n.hamilton=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Colin

The original S class drawings were available from the Manchester museum, though you might have to search for order number 7511, anything that was in LMS/NCC offices at York Road was destroyed in the 1941 air raids so you can probably on to a loser, I've been seaching for drawings of the LMS/NCC brake vans used on the Ballycastle line and all I have been able to find are some, possibly apprentice drawings, done in the last days of that line and the photographs - undated - which show that the vans were modified 'over the years' and none of the photographs - that I've seen show any signs of lettering on a 'type 23' brake van. As for the Kitson 4-4-2T's I've no idea where any drawings might be found - especially after York Road had 'amended them' there are some late photographs of 113 being used on the Ballyclare Papermill trains - giben that it had a bad reputation for 'loosing it's feet, the fact that crews would not use the S2 instead tells you a lot about how bad that really was, I think I saw an article by Desmond Coakham (I think) stating that 110 was in Larne shed, still in Red Livery in 1945 but he didn't have the nerve/cheek to ask the crew of 113 to pull 110 out for photography. I have seen a photograph of S1 #42 in UTA livery in Larne shed so it looks like this livery was applied after the Larne-Ballclare line was closed.

Have Fun.
Gavin

On Saturday, 11 January 2020, 21:11:36 GMT, Colin Rainsbury <lynbarn58@...> wrote:


Hi guys I am gathering as much information about these locos with the plan to persuade a well known brass etch parts manufactures to think about doing these for us.

 

I have got the feelers out all over the place, that is if you have already come across my request for information. I am hoping that both the Manchester Museum of Science and Technology can help with the Beyer Peacock drawings and the Northern Irish Transport Museum can help with drawings of the above locos.


But if anyone has a works drawing of any of the NCC locos outside of the published books on this subject please get in touch, there are so many variations already with in the S class so having as much detail to hand is really important thanks.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

Re: NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

G HAMILTON
 

Hi Colin

The original S class drawings were available from the Manchester museum, though you might have to search for order number 7511, anything that was in LMS/NCC offices at York Road was destroyed in the 1941 air raids so you can probably on to a loser, I've been seaching for drawings of the LMS/NCC brake vans used on the Ballycastle line and all I have been able to find are some, possibly apprentice drawings, done in the last days of that line and the photographs - undated - which show that the vans were modified 'over the years' and none of the photographs - that I've seen show any signs of lettering on a 'type 23' brake van. As for the Kitson 4-4-2T's I've no idea where any drawings might be found - especially after York Road had 'amended them' there are some late photographs of 113 being used on the Ballyclare Papermill trains - giben that it had a bad reputation for 'loosing it's feet, the fact that crews would not use the S2 instead tells you a lot about how bad that really was, I think I saw an article by Desmond Coakham (I think) stating that 110 was in Larne shed, still in Red Livery in 1945 but he didn't have the nerve/cheek to ask the crew of 113 to pull 110 out for photography. I have seen a photograph of S1 #42 in UTA livery in Larne shed so it looks like this livery was applied after the Larne-Ballclare line was closed.

Have Fun.
Gavin

On Saturday, 11 January 2020, 21:11:36 GMT, Colin Rainsbury <lynbarn58@...> wrote:


Hi guys I am gathering as much information about these locos with the plan to persuade a well known brass etch parts manufactures to think about doing these for us.

 

I have got the feelers out all over the place, that is if you have already come across my request for information. I am hoping that both the Manchester Museum of Science and Technology can help with the Beyer Peacock drawings and the Northern Irish Transport Museum can help with drawings of the above locos.


But if anyone has a works drawing of any of the NCC locos outside of the published books on this subject please get in touch, there are so many variations already with in the S class so having as much detail to hand is really important thanks.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

NCC Class S and 4-4-2T locos

Colin Rainsbury
 

Hi guys I am gathering as much information about these locos with the plan to persuade a well known brass etch parts manufactures to think about doing these for us.

 

I have got the feelers out all over the place, that is if you have already come across my request for information. I am hoping that both the Manchester Museum of Science and Technology can help with the Beyer Peacock drawings and the Northern Irish Transport Museum can help with drawings of the above locos.


But if anyone has a works drawing of any of the NCC locos outside of the published books on this subject please get in touch, there are so many variations already with in the S class so having as much detail to hand is really important thanks.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Colin Rainsbury

Re: County Donegal Railway steel trust bridges

Alan Gee (alan.gee@jatr.co.uk)
 

Hello Andy,
thank you for the offer of pictures of the truss bridge on the Ballyshannon line. If you cannot find my address, email me your email address off line at alan.gee@... and I will email my home address details to you.
Kind regards
Alan

Re: County Donegal Railway steel trust bridges

Andrew Cundick
 

Hi Alan I've got a couple of the Donegal bridge i think it was the only one on the branch,its the same design as those used on the Derry line albeit slightly longer theres a good shot of the one at Strabane crossing the GN in the 2COMPANION" book and a couple in the Michael Bunch books of a couple of Derry examples.The main difference is the Donegal one is longer and has a footpath canterlevered off one side.Can't post the photos but if can find your address i'll send you a couple of copies.                                                                   |On the subject of the Aire Valley Brake,the nearest things to that on the Donegal were the two West Donegal brake vans No'1 & 2,however once past the fact it has 4 wheels and duckets thats about the end of it.For  the record they became No's 209 and 210,209 was converted to a goods van in 1921.210 went to the loco dept in 1916 as a Breakdown van in 1916 and was then rebuilt as goods van in 1927,it was further modified with centre doors at Dundalk in august 1946.Andy.

On 04 January 2020 at 16:27 "Alan Gee (alan.gee@...)" <alan.gee@...> wrote:

Has any member got a photograph they could post of any of the steel trust bridges particularly those found on the Ballyshannon branch line. I can find in various publications pictures of the larger CDR metal bridges but I have not found one picture of the single span bridges like the one on the Ballyshannon line close to it's junction at Donegal. Would these be somewhat like half a two span Inver steel trust bridge which there are pictures off.
Kind regards
Alan Gee

Re: Christmas Question

rwlacknz
 

Thank you, Gavin. This drawing may well have been the inspiration. The model differs quite a lot in detail, but it's much closer than the prototype you found :)

Sorry the pics below are a bit muddy - we're over 1300 miles from Australia but the afternoon sky is an eerie yellow.

Best wishes,

Bob