Massive groups.pricing increase - we need a plan B.


 

As a look at the membership details for this group

https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment


show, we currently have  4706 members. Due to the disk space usage, we have to have a premium account. We currently pay around $220/year for this group, which one member has kindly paid for several years, but I had suggested to him that next time I would ask others to contribute. I don’t think getting $220/year will be difficult.

However, it seems that groups.io are going to be changing their pricing 



Premium Starting at $20/month or $220/year Up to 400 members, then $0.05/member/month or $0.55/member/year for each member above that 30GB storage Subgroups Collaboration Suite Donations Direct Add


If my arithmetic is right, that means that it will cost $220/year, plus another 0.05*(4706-400) =$215/per month. That means 

$220 + 12x 215 = $2803/year. That’s more than a 10x increase!  A look back at the history of the changes to pricing show significant increases 

1) Originally it was free to transfer from Yahoo to groups.io

2) Then a premium account was needed to transfer from Yahoo. That was $110

3) Next the price of the premium account doubled to $220/year. 

4) Now the premium membership fees look to be rising by a factor of more than 10. 

5) WTF next???

Even if we could get $2800/year, I think we should look at another solution, because we don’t know what will change next. 

I recall saying on the VNWA group once, that if I had a forum as they do for a commercial product, I would use open-source software on a server I controlled. I personally would not want my business tied to a system I have no control over. 

I can get a reasonably well specification of virtual private server (VPS) in the UK for £9/month for the first 6 months, rising to £18/month after that. (All similar services give a discount for the first few months, but the £18/year will not rise dramatically, as there are similar services, all competing with each other.) Add in the cost of a domain name, and it still comes to less than $300/year.  Others could create backups, using rsync, so if I pegged it, all the data is available elsewhere. 

Essentially what I am thinking is that some open-source software is used. The problem with most/all of the VPSs is that there block emails going out, but that restriction can be lifted, although they may insist on those annoying capchas. 

There are some people only using this as a mailing list, others making  use of the web, and we have a substantial file storage area. A wiki is very useful - see the one here 


for another group I run


I am quite keen to have a Wiki so material can be better organised.

If the prices are going to rise the way I think they are, then I am not keen to stay on here, even if the money is found. I see open-source as a better solution. I don’t know what solution is best. 

Dave 
(Group owner, who hates Windows.)


--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom


Robin Szemeti
 

Please note the important point in the mail:

*** These changes only apply to groups upgraded after Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021at 9am Pacific Time; existing premium and enterprise groups will keep their legacy pricing ***

So there is no suggestion our pricing is going to change at this time. I would suggest trying the donations feature included in the premium plan, I think you will easily have it covered.


On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 09:31, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:
As a look at the membership details for this group

https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment


show, we currently have  4706 members. Due to the disk space usage, we have to have a premium account. We currently pay around $220/year for this group, which one member has kindly paid for several years, but I had suggested to him that next time I would ask others to contribute. I don’t think getting $220/year will be difficult.

However, it seems that groups.io are going to be changing their pricing 



Premium Starting at $20/month or $220/year Up to 400 members, then $0.05/member/month or $0.55/member/year for each member above that 30GB storage Subgroups Collaboration Suite Donations Direct Add


If my arithmetic is right, that means that it will cost $220/year, plus another 0.05*(4706-400) =$215/per month. That means 

$220 + 12x 215 = $2803/year. That’s more than a 10x increase!  A look back at the history of the changes to pricing show significant increases 

1) Originally it was free to transfer from Yahoo to groups.io

2) Then a premium account was needed to transfer from Yahoo. That was $110

3) Next the price of the premium account doubled to $220/year. 

4) Now the premium membership fees look to be rising by a factor of more than 10. 

5) WTF next???

Even if we could get $2800/year, I think we should look at another solution, because we don’t know what will change next. 

I recall saying on the VNWA group once, that if I had a forum as they do for a commercial product, I would use open-source software on a server I controlled. I personally would not want my business tied to a system I have no control over. 

I can get a reasonably well specification of virtual private server (VPS) in the UK for £9/month for the first 6 months, rising to £18/month after that. (All similar services give a discount for the first few months, but the £18/year will not rise dramatically, as there are similar services, all competing with each other.) Add in the cost of a domain name, and it still comes to less than $300/year.  Others could create backups, using rsync, so if I pegged it, all the data is available elsewhere. 

Essentially what I am thinking is that some open-source software is used. The problem with most/all of the VPSs is that there block emails going out, but that restriction can be lifted, although they may insist on those annoying capchas. 

There are some people only using this as a mailing list, others making  use of the web, and we have a substantial file storage area. A wiki is very useful - see the one here 


for another group I run


I am quite keen to have a Wiki so material can be better organised.

If the prices are going to rise the way I think they are, then I am not keen to stay on here, even if the money is found. I see open-source as a better solution. I don’t know what solution is best. 

Dave 
(Group owner, who hates Windows.)


--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom


Razvan
 

> *** These changes only apply to groups upgraded after Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021at 9am Pacific Time; existing premium and enterprise groups will keep their legacy pricing ***

That's good news.

If that changes and no reasonable alternatives are found, I might be able to help. I know a thing or two about e-mailing and if it comes to that, I can create a custom solution on top of a service I have been developing for a different purpose, and I can offer it free of charge to this group.

Cheers,
Razvan

Razvan Cojocariu
Cojotech SRL
https://cojotech.com/
+4073 558 3392
On 15/01/2021 11:58, Robin Szemeti wrote:

Please note the important point in the mail:

*** These changes only apply to groups upgraded after Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021at 9am Pacific Time; existing premium and enterprise groups will keep their legacy pricing ***

So there is no suggestion our pricing is going to change at this time. I would suggest trying the donations feature included in the premium plan, I think you will easily have it covered.

On Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 09:31, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:
As a look at the membership details for this group

https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment


show, we currently have  4706 members. Due to the disk space usage, we have to have a premium account. We currently pay around $220/year for this group, which one member has kindly paid for several years, but I had suggested to him that next time I would ask others to contribute. I don’t think getting $220/year will be difficult.

However, it seems that groups.io are going to be changing their pricing 



Premium Starting at $20/month or $220/year Up to 400 members, then $0.05/member/month or $0.55/member/year for each member above that 30GB storage Subgroups Collaboration Suite Donations Direct Add


If my arithmetic is right, that means that it will cost $220/year, plus another 0.05*(4706-400) =$215/per month. That means 

$220 + 12x 215 = $2803/year. That’s more than a 10x increase!  A look back at the history of the changes to pricing show significant increases 

1) Originally it was free to transfer from Yahoo to groups.io

2) Then a premium account was needed to transfer from Yahoo. That was $110

3) Next the price of the premium account doubled to $220/year. 

4) Now the premium membership fees look to be rising by a factor of more than 10. 

5) WTF next???

Even if we could get $2800/year, I think we should look at another solution, because we don’t know what will change next. 

I recall saying on the VNWA group once, that if I had a forum as they do for a commercial product, I would use open-source software on a server I controlled. I personally would not want my business tied to a system I have no control over. 

I can get a reasonably well specification of virtual private server (VPS) in the UK for £9/month for the first 6 months, rising to £18/month after that. (All similar services give a discount for the first few months, but the £18/year will not rise dramatically, as there are similar services, all competing with each other.) Add in the cost of a domain name, and it still comes to less than $300/year.  Others could create backups, using rsync, so if I pegged it, all the data is available elsewhere. 

Essentially what I am thinking is that some open-source software is used. The problem with most/all of the VPSs is that there block emails going out, but that restriction can be lifted, although they may insist on those annoying capchas. 

There are some people only using this as a mailing list, others making  use of the web, and we have a substantial file storage area. A wiki is very useful - see the one here 


for another group I run


I am quite keen to have a Wiki so material can be better organised.

If the prices are going to rise the way I think they are, then I am not keen to stay on here, even if the money is found. I see open-source as a better solution. I don’t know what solution is best. 

Dave 
(Group owner, who hates Windows.)


--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom


Ed Breya
 

Although it may not be an issue now, I think it will come up again. The last time this happened - I think maybe a year or two ago - I suggested trimming down the burgeoning photos section. But it was ignored.

It seems like these emergencies are triggered by using excessive disk space, so once again, I suggest getting rid of most of the photos. A casual stroll through the albums shows that most pictures are not needed anymore. Some are of course great to keep for reference, while others maybe were useful at a certain point in a repair project or such, and could be purged. The problem of course, is separating the wheat from the chaff, and according to which eyes of which beholders. I know this could get complicated, and I don't know how to easily do it, but I'm convinced it must be done. Cleaning up and organizing it would also make it more useful and easier to search.

Ed


Brooke Clarke
 

Hi David:

You might want to talk to John Ackermann.  He maintains the Time Nuts list server.
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.


Toby
 

On 2021-01-15 3:19 p.m., Ed Breya via groups.io wrote:
Although it may not be an issue now, I think it will come up again. The
I agree, but not for the same reason...

last time this happened - I think maybe a year or two ago - I suggested
trimming down the burgeoning photos section. But it was ignored.

It seems like these emergencies are triggered by using excessive disk
space, so once again, I suggest getting rid of most of the photos. A
No, they're triggered by arbitrary policy changes.

How much does 10gb of storage cost now? $150? $100?

Exactly. Almost nothing.

--T

casual stroll through the albums shows that most pictures are not needed
anymore. Some are of course great to keep for reference, while others
maybe were useful at a certain point in a repair project or such, and
could be purged. The problem of course, is separating the wheat from the
chaff, and according to which eyes of which beholders. I know this could
get complicated, and I don't know how to easily do it, but I'm convinced
it must be done. Cleaning up and organizing it would also make it more
useful and easier to search.

Ed


Liam Perkins
 

The following is from Dennis Tillman, owner of the TekScopes list and posted here as it might be relevant:

I have read a copy of the email from Mark Fletcher very carefully line by line. (although I am annoyed I did not receive a copy sent to me directly).

As I understand it these price increases DO NOT APPLY to TekScopes! There is no reason to bring the subject of price increases up again on TekScopes so please don't.

If you believe I am mistaken contact me OFF-LIST with the specific sentence in Mark's email that I misunderstood and your explanation of how I misunderstand it. If you do not already know how to contact me off list that is a good clue you haven't been paying attention. Above all else do not send a post to TekScopes asking how to contact me off-list since it completely defeats the purpose of keeping irrelevant stuff off of TekScopes.

If you see Mark's message and you panic pay attention to these critical sentences which you probably did not read or understand, take a deep breath, and do not post your misunderstanding of what Mark wrote to TekScopes.

1) "I mentioned a year ago that I was considering changing to a per-member based pricing scheme FOR NEW GROUPS."
--- TekScopes IS NOT a new group.

2) "These changes only apply to groups upgraded after Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021at 9am Pacific Time; EXISTING PREMIUM.GROUPS will keep their legacy pricing."
--- TekScopes is an EXISTING premium group.

3) "Premium groups will now have 30GB storage. EXISTING PREMIUM GROUPS will get this storage bump as well."
--- TekScopes will get the storage bump to 30GB from 20GB. This is good news. We are currently using 5.9GB of storage but it is starting to grow.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

Bill

Although it may not be an issue now, I think it will come up again. The last time this happened - I think maybe a year or two ago - I suggested trimming down the burgeoning photos section. But it was ignored.
It seems like these emergencies are triggered by using excessive disk space, so once again, I suggest getting rid of most of the photos. A casual stroll through the albums shows that most pictures are not needed anymore. Some are of course great to keep for reference, while others maybe were useful at a certain point in a repair project or such, and could be purged. The problem of course, is separating the wheat from the chaff, and according to which eyes of which beholders. I know this could get complicated, and I don't know how to easily do it, but I'm convinced it must be done. Cleaning up and organizing it would also make it more useful and easier to search.
Ed


 

n Fri, 15 Jan 2021 at 20:19, Ed Breya via groups.io <edbreya=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Although it may not be an issue now, I think it will come up again. The last time this happened - I think maybe a year or two ago - I suggested trimming down the burgeoning photos section. But it was ignored.

I think it's only a matter of time before it comes up again. I can't see groups.io are going to have two pricing structures for long.

I know the person  that paid the subscription for 4 years or so was not keen to remove anything. Given his wish, I'm inclined to go along with it. I think it's inevitable that  something would get deleted, what others wanted to keep. Disk space is pretty cheap anyway.

It seems like these emergencies are triggered by using excessive disk space, so once again, I suggest getting rid of most of the photos. A casual stroll through the albums shows that most pictures are not needed anymore. Some are of course great to keep for reference, while others maybe were useful at a certain point in a repair project or such, and could be purged. The problem of course, is separating the wheat from the chaff, and according to which eyes of which beholders. I know this could get complicated, and I don't know how to easily do it, but I'm convinced it must be done. Cleaning up and organizing it would also make it more useful and easier to search.

Ed


Keith Monahan
 

Dave,

responses in-line

On 1/15/2021 6:47 AM, Razvan wrote:
*** These changes only apply to groups upgraded after Tuesday, February 2nd, 2021at 9am Pacific Time;
existing premium and enterprise groups will keep their legacy pricing ***
That's good news.
If that changes and no reasonable alternatives are found, I might be able to help.
As can I. There's plenty of cloud providers offering fairly reasonable priced hosts. Getting a reliable, inexpensive Ubuntu box spun up in datacenters around the world is trivial. There's definitely open source solutions that could work here.

I run a mail server hosted in one of these providers. There's no problem with incoming/outgoing email. If you're really worried you can utilize an email service like Twilio's SendGrid, which is also affordable for the scale that we're talking about here.

The only non-trivial part about most of this is just having someone dedicate some time to admin'ing the box. Beyond the initial setup, it's probably a few hours a week to make sure everything is running ok, upgrade stuff, make sure backups are working, and so on.

As others have said, if our costs are under a few hundred +/- USD per year, then setup a donation portal, and I'll be happy to contribute. If it costs much more than that, then we're doing this all wrong, and we should investigate some alternatives.

I'm no expert but I'm confident that with our collective brainpower and wallets (hehe) that we should be able to solve this easily.

Keith


george edmonds
 

Hi Dave

Last year I became joint owner of a group, it was decided to cut down the file storage requirement to below 1GB in order to make it a subscription free group.

When I started looking at the entire storage I was horrified and have since reduced it from 1.5GB to under 500MB with more to go, strangely no one has complained about this.

I cannot see the point of storing files on the group that are available elsewhere, these group stored files are NOT indexed by the likes of Google, as a result they are little accessed.

George G6HIG


Carsten Bormann
 

On 2021-01-16, at 01:02, george edmonds via groups.io <G6HIG=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I cannot see the point of storing files on the group that are available elsewhere,
The point is that when they vanish from “elsewhere”, we still have them.

(Is there a storage crunch right now?
Or are we just triggering the cognitive dissonance that “waste” tends to generate?
Every library, every museum is in the business of that “waste”, and it is the basis for our civilization.)

Grüße, Carsten


george edmonds
 

Wrong

If the files are put on K04BB's site for instance they have an assured future, and they can be search engine indexed and accessed by all.

George G6HIG


John Griessen
 

On 1/15/21 3:15 PM, Keith Monahan via groups.io wrote:
The only non-trivial part about most of this is just having someone dedicate some time to admin'ing the box. Beyond the initial setup, it's probably a few hours a week to make sure everything is running ok, upgrade stuff, make sure backups are working, and so on.
My experience with Atlantic.net is a minimal server is just able to do mailman2 until recently and then it goes to the next larger size virtual server slice, which costs $7.5/month. That includes nightly rolling backups, a way to do a restore from your remote backups. I'd say the work involved once it is set up is about moderation more than fooling with the site. If something breaks, yo go back to earlier in the day or yesterday and get going again after you figured out what caused the break and avoid that. That's 5 hours work when an emergency happens. Ordinary months go by without much going on maintenance wise. I'd call the time needed for upgrades and figuring out software 5 hours per month, not week.

Some one has to learn the ins and outs of mailman3 though. DNS and mail sending can be done on Amazon (AWS SES and route 53). I wonder if any mailman3 users are offering services yet... Probably cheaper than anyone else learning how to do it all.

I kind of bogged down with mailman2 and stopped doing it. The anti spam requirements for email now are a lot of work. (That's why you send through verified AWS SES (simple email service) instead of DIY postfix server...

I'll ask on the mailman3 list if anyone offers service.


 

On 1/15/21 7:02 PM, george edmonds via groups.io wrote:
I cannot see the point of storing files on the group that are available elsewhere, these group stored files are NOT indexed by the likes of Google, as a result they are little accessed.
Replication is a good thing, indexed or not. But in this case, the groups.io people know that and are clearly getting greedy. It happens to every service eventually...usually not long after they have all of your data.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


 

On 1/15/21 7:55 PM, george edmonds via groups.io wrote:
If the files are put on K04BB's site for instance they have an assured future, and they can be search engine indexed and accessed by all.
The takeaway here is that it is NON-COMMERCIAL. When a business is involved, there is risk. I keep hoping that people will learn that eventually.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


 

On 1/15/21 8:02 PM, John Griessen wrote:
Some one has to learn the ins and outs of mailman3 though.  DNS and mail sending can be done on Amazon (AWS SES and route 53).  I wonder if any mailman3 users are offering services yet...  Probably cheaper than anyone else learning how to do it all.
I kind of bogged down with mailman2 and stopped doing it.  The anti spam requirements for email now are a lot of work.  (That's why you send through verified AWS SES (simple email service) instead of DIY postfix server...
I run several small- to mid-sized lists (~200 recipients or less each, total maybe 2000 recipients), using Mailman3. I have no significant difficulties, and the maintenance requirements are minimal...an hour or so every 6-8 months. I've run these services since 1993. (starting with Majordomo and sendmail5!)

I'm not sure it's necessarily fair to call any such servers "DIY", as, well, someone had to build Amazon's mail servers too. Some are commercial, some aren't, and some are built by professionals, and some aren't. There's not much correlation between the two.

It's important to avoid commercial services whenever possible. Many people don't care, preferring the "easier" route of just letting some corporation like Amazon handle it. So, what happens when you're 100% dependent upon Amazon, and they either shut down the service or start charging too much for it? You get screwed.

Most of the commercial services are run so poorly that there's really no compelling reason to use them. Amazon and groups.io are two (rare) exceptions to that, at least for now.

The mailing list itself is really the easy part. The hard part is all of the "group" crap that people all flock to. The files, pictures, etc sections of the mailing list's web interface. People use them because it's "easier" (see a common theme here?) than running a web server. Some time goes by, then the data is at risk. A little time spent learning about how things work and how to properly use the Internet would alleviate this problem, but people are allergic to work anymore so that won't fly.

One thing I'd considered discussing with Dave Kirkby, but haven't brought it up yet, and may not at all, is hosting this list with Mailman3 with an instance of Nextcloud set up next to it for the files/pictures/etc. I'm not sure I'd want to do that much administration, because people tend not to clean up after themselves, but at least it wouldn't be subject to greed and corporate whim.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


 

The following is from Dennis Tillman, owner of the TekScopes list and posted here as it might be relevant:...

groups.io is certainly very interested in this discussion - sort of lackmus test to see how far they can go?

cheers
Martin


John Griessen
 

On 1/15/21 7:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm not sure I'd want to do that much administration, because people tend not to clean up after themselves, but at least it wouldn't be subject to greed and corporate whim.
             -Dave
Maybe we can start discussion of admin sharing and how that would happen and get results... I'd sign up for some tasks, but not any task that I do 100% forever, only sharing and handing off some of the time.

I'm going to learn to use mailman3 sometime soonish...just not this month.

--
John Griessen -- building lab gear for biologists
Austin TX blog.kitmatic.com


John Ackermann N8UR
 

FWIW...

I run the time-nuts and several other febo.com mailing lists, along with 10 or so lists for tapr.org, all on Mailman. time-nuts just celebrated its 20th anniversary and has over 2000 subscribers.

For nearly 30 years I ran my own server with smtp/imap/dns/lists (first majordomo, then Mailman, with sendmail and a bit of uucp thrown in). About 2 years ago I gave up on that and moved my personal email to gmail and all the lists over to emwd.com, a small ISP in the U.S. that hosts Mailman with an owner who's been part of the Mailman development community for years (I still run my own web server on a virtual machine).

There were several reasons, but a primary one is that maintaining a secure and functional email environment is a lot harder than it used to be. Mailman itself takes up very little admin time once you have the parameters tweaked. But dealing with blacklists, DMARC, SPF, spammers, joe-jobs, AOL, etc. is a different matter.

I'm sure that someone who is actively maintaining a busy SMTP email environment could do all that stuff in their sleep, but as a part-time hacker, even with decades of experience, it was becoming double-plus unfun.

So my caution for a non-pro who's thinking about this is to look beyond just the Mailman configuration and management, and consider all the related stuff that comes with it.

73,
John
----

On 1/16/21 11:59 AM, John Griessen wrote:
On 1/15/21 7:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm not sure I'd want to do that much administration, because people tend not to clean up after themselves, but at least it wouldn't be subject to greed and corporate whim.

              -Dave
Maybe we can start discussion of admin sharing and how that would happen and get results... I'd sign up for some tasks, but not any task that I do 100% forever, only sharing and handing off some of the time.
I'm going to learn to use mailman3 sometime soonish...just not this month.


 

Well, I don't think it's actually being actively considered right now. Who knows what the future holds, but we do know this: corporate service providers get greedy after a time, and then we have to move. It's like playing whack-a-mole. The only way to avoid it completely is to avoid the corporate interests.

I've been running mail servers commercially for a very long time, and while I agree that the set of problems is very different than it was before so many idiots glommed onto the network, it's really not all that awful. For a list this large (nearly 5,000 recipients) there would be challenges, but it's by no means a huge job. For me it'd be some tuning-related changes to an existing set of (commercial) mail servers and setting up a new list, not a big deal. Nobody is suggesting a hobbyist in a basement take on a list of this size. We both know that wouldn't fly for very long.

By far the larger issue for this list is the other "groups" functionality that people can't seem to keep themselves from using. Files are one thing, but...databases? Why is that even there? Oh, right, it's called "vendor lock-in".

-Dave

On 1/16/21 3:49 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
FWIW...
I run the time-nuts and several other febo.com mailing lists, along with 10 or so lists for tapr.org, all on Mailman.  time-nuts just celebrated its 20th anniversary and has over 2000 subscribers.
For nearly 30 years I ran my own server with smtp/imap/dns/lists (first majordomo, then Mailman, with sendmail and a bit of uucp thrown in). About 2 years ago I gave up on that and moved my personal email to gmail and all the lists over to emwd.com, a small ISP in the U.S. that hosts Mailman with an owner who's been part of the Mailman development community for years (I still run my own web server on a virtual machine).
There were several reasons, but a primary one is that maintaining a secure and functional email environment is a lot harder than it used to be.  Mailman itself takes up very little admin time once you have the parameters tweaked.  But dealing with blacklists, DMARC, SPF, spammers, joe-jobs, AOL, etc. is a different matter.
I'm sure that someone who is actively maintaining a busy SMTP email environment could do all that stuff in their sleep, but as a part-time hacker, even with decades of experience, it was becoming double-plus unfun.
So my caution for a non-pro who's thinking about this is to look beyond just the Mailman configuration and management, and consider all the related stuff that comes with it.
73,
John
----
On 1/16/21 11:59 AM, John Griessen wrote:
On 1/15/21 7:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I'm not sure I'd want to do that much administration, because people tend not to clean up after themselves, but at least it wouldn't be subject to greed and corporate whim.

              -Dave
Maybe we can start discussion of admin sharing and how that would happen and get results... I'd sign up for some tasks, but not any task that I do 100% forever, only sharing and handing off some of the time.

I'm going to learn to use mailman3 sometime soonish...just not this month.
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA