Topics

Wheelset question


Brian Kopp
 
Edited

I had a chat with the San Juan Model Company yesterday and found out they are not planning to reproduce the Grandt Line 5132 wheelsets. They are looking at doing truck frames though so that's good.

I know NWSL makes a Grandt truck frame compatible wheelset, the 37343-4 for about $25 or ($15 unassembled as the 97343-4).

I went looking through my inventory and of course I don't have any on hand. I was wondering if anybody had any thoughts on modified a Grandt Line truck frame to take another wheelset that has similar wheel thickness and axle length. One wheelset that comes to mind is the kadee 718. I did some rough caliper measurements and found the following:

Grandt line 5132
axle length 0.59"
wheel thickness including flange 0.075"
blunt axle length outside wheel 0.025
blunt axle tip diameter 0.038"

Sorry here is the Kadee info for comparison:

Kadee 718
axle length 0.637"
wheel thickness including flange 0.075"
pointed axle length outside wheel 0.0575"
pointed axle diameter (at wheel) 0.050"

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


 

It's too bad there is no tool for HOn3 like Micro Marks Truck Tuner.  It has 60 degree (NMRA standard) cutting ends to ream the hole in the truck.  I believe the Grandt Line side frames are one piece with the bolster.  You would need something small to get between the sideframes.

Bruce Dunlevy




 


Dale Buxton
 

Well, somebody made them because, I bought one on Ebay. But I could never find out who made them!

Dale Buxton

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 18:43 Bruce Dunlevy <bdunlevy@...> wrote:
It's too bad there is no tool for HOn3 like Micro Marks Truck Tuner.  It has 60 degree (NMRA standard) cutting ends to ream the hole in the truck.  I believe the Grandt Line side frames are one piece with the bolster.  You would need something small to get between the sideframes.

Bruce Dunlevy




 


Climax@...
 

I believe in the machines world those are called centering cutters.  They are used in lathe and milling operations to cut a true center and are all cut with a 60 degree angle.  They come in multiple sizes.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Dunlevy
Sent: Apr 28, 2020 8:43 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Wheelset question

It's too bad there is no tool for HOn3 like Micro Marks Truck Tuner.  It has 60 degree (NMRA standard) cutting ends to ream the hole in the truck.  I believe the Grandt Line side frames are one piece with the bolster.  You would need something small to get between the sideframes.

Bruce Dunlevy




 


Brian Kopp
 

So is the purpose of the 60 degree angle to match the pointed axle tip shape exactly so the rolling contact surface is the whole cone? If the hole were shaped with a shallower cone then less of the axle tip would contact the frame cone and I guess that is a bad thing at some point? (no pun intended).

The reason I ask is that a typical drill bit is much shallower than 60 degrees and I wondered what would happen if I drilled a bit out of the Grandt Line frame with a regular drill bit.... assuming I could get it in there straight by cutting the drill bit off short or flexing the frame.....

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Jim Marlett
 

No. The journal is a minimum of 60º and the axle tip is a maximum of 50º. The objective is to have only the point of the axle touching the journal so that friction is minimized.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Apr 29, 2020, at 2:35 PM, Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:

So is the purpose of the 60 degree angle to match the pointed axle tip shape exactly so the rolling contact surface is the whole cone? If the hole were shaped with a shallower cone then less of the axle tip would contact the frame cone and I guess that is a bad thing at some point? (no pun intended).

The reason I ask is that a typical drill bit is much shallower than 60 degrees and I wondered what would happen if I drilled a bit out of the Grandt Line frame with a regular drill bit.... assuming I could get it in there straight by cutting the drill bit off short or flexing the frame.....

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Brian Kopp
 

Ok thanks Jim. That means a drill bit might work....
.
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Dusty
 

The Grandt 5132 wheel sets appear to be the same as the Grandt passenger truck wheel sets. If you had Grandt frieght truck castings you would need to trim the 5132 axels to the correct length. In the past I had experimented with the NWSL very narrow wheel sets in Grandt trucks. They looked amazing on code 40 track. My conclusion was that this combination didn't function very well with Shinohara switches. I sent the NWSL wheel sets to my friend Al Sohl out on Long Island so I no longer have an example in hand.

Unless there are major new developments Blackstone looks like the best hope for a number of truck prototypes in hon3.

Dusty Burman


Ric Case
 

Dusty unfortunately Blackstone is no longer supplying any trucks of any kind! As they have not introduced anything new for a number of years, and it doesn’t look good for anything in the near future, I don’t think you will have any luck finding trucks at any hobby shop. 
I have posted quite a few times looking for EBT Vulcan trucks for my railroad! Was lucky found 10 pair a couple of years ago and that was it. I purchased 125 cars and 70 plus trucks when they were available, still need around 70 sets of Vulcan trucks. Any body have spares for sale? 
I have a truck reamer for hon3 like the ones offered for standard gauge . It works pretty good with most of the trucks and Nwsl wheel sets!
I’ve had it for years!
A friend had them made by the guy who supplied the original standard gauge ones. 
Good luck with your searches 

Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On Apr 29, 2020, at 6:06 PM, Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:

The Grandt 5132 wheel sets appear to be the same as the Grandt passenger truck wheel sets. If you had Grandt frieght truck castings you would need to trim the 5132 axels to the correct length. In the past I had experimented with the NWSL very narrow wheel sets in Grandt trucks. They looked amazing on code 40 track. My conclusion was that this combination didn't function very well with Shinohara switches. I sent the NWSL wheel sets to my friend Al Sohl out on Long Island so I no longer have an example in hand.

Unless there are major new developments Blackstone looks like the best hope for a number of truck prototypes in hon3.

Dusty Burman


 

Ric,

I was wondering about the Kadee Vulcan trucks and if you tried those.  I ordered a set of Kadee's for a D&RGW 6500 flat car to see what they are like.  You might look at Western Rails as they have a 3D printed Vulcan truck which uses Kadee wheelsets.


Bruce Dunlevy






 


Dusty
 

Bruce,

The Kadee Vulcan trucks have 26" wheels which I believe are too large. I think the Blackstone EBT Vulcan trucks have 24" wheels. The side frames are different as well. The Kadee have more of an arch. I could be mistaken. Help, anyone.

Dusty Burman 


Ric Case
 

Dusty the 2 inch difference under a car at arms length is definitely not a great problem, the rolling abilities of the trucks I have is my greatest problem!  

Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On Apr 29, 2020, at 7:34 PM, Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:

Bruce,

The Kadee Vulcan trucks have 26" wheels which I believe are too large. I think the Blackstone EBT Vulcan trucks have 24" wheels. The side frames are different as well. The Kadee have more of an arch. I could be mistaken. Help, anyone.

Dusty Burman 


Jim Marlett
 

Again, I don’t think so. I think the angles need to be in the same ball park, but 10º or a little more different. The tip of a drill bit is way too shallow. I think it would allow the wheels to slip too far up into the side frames unless the axles were exactly the right width. That would be kind of hard to control I would think. Also, to get the angle of the hole just right would require that the drill be aligned straight with the opposite journal, which would be tricky with a drill bit and a one piece side frame and bolster. That’s why the tools are pointed on both ends and do two journals at once. If you can figure out how to do it, then charge on!

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Apr 29, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:

Ok thanks Jim. That means a drill bit might work....
.
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Mike Smith
 

I know drill bits are hard to cut, but could one be cut to the length of an axel?   Then slipped into the side frame?  It would have to be reversed for the other side of the truck.    Just a thought...... 


On Wednesday, April 29, 2020, 08:29:29 PM MST, Jim Marlett <jmarlett@...> wrote:


Again, I don’t think so. I think the angles need to be in the same ball park, but 10º or a little more different. The tip of a drill bit is way too shallow. I think it would allow the wheels to slip too far up into the side frames unless the axles were exactly the right width. That would be kind of hard to control I would think. Also, to get the angle of the hole just right would require that the drill be aligned straight with the opposite journal, which would be tricky with a drill bit and a one piece side frame and bolster. That’s why the tools are pointed on both ends and do two journals at once. If you can figure out how to do it, then charge on!

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Apr 29, 2020, at 4:58 PM, Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:

Ok thanks Jim. That means a drill bit might work....
.
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


kevin b
 

I know drill bits are hard to cut, but could one be cut to the length of an axel? Then slipped into the side frame? It would have to be reversed for the other side of the truck. Just a thought......


well, they break like going out of style if you're not careful, so,,,, why couldn't one be cut?
i'd say use a Dremel with a cutting disc, you know the stone type that ALSO break like no tomorrow.....

if it were me, i'd make the cut then round over the end of the bit there to some extent so it sorta fits up in the other axle pocket.
that way it would help keep itself "true" to the other side.
I can see this process ending up with mis-aligned holes if one isn't mindful of that ahead of time.
that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

thanks.
Kevin.



Brian Kopp
 

All good points guys. Thanks. I like the idea of using a drill bit to make a one-sided cutting tool that fits where the axle goes. Reversing it to get the other side. Chamfering/rounding the flat end would make it easier to insert.

Jim your point is well taken that the shallower drill bit would allow a wheelset to "rattle around" in the journal more if it is just a bit short...

I may have to "sacrifice" a drill bit and one of those new San Juan /Grandt 3'7" frames when they come out just to see if it is possible..... I will report back.

Thanks again guys. As always, this forum makes me a better HOn3 modeller....


Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Jim Marlett
 

It might be a bear to do, but I think a more successful plan would be to take some out of the middle of an HO standard gauge tool and splice it back together to HOn3 size. Or cut an N scale tool in the middle and splice it back together to HOn3 size. If brass or whatever tubing could be found that was the right size or a piece of plastic drilled to fit, I think it could be done and I think it would be much easier than modifying a drill bit.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Apr 30, 2020, at 8:39 AM, Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:

All good points guys. Thanks. I like the idea of using a drill bit to make a one-sided cutting tool that fits where the axle goes. Reversing it to get the other side. Chamfering/rounding the flat end would make it easier to insert.

Jim your point is well taken that the shallower drill bit would allow a wheelset to "rattle around" in the journal more if it is just a bit short...

I may have to "sacrifice" a drill bit and one of those new San Juan /Grandt 3'7" frames when they come out just to see if it is possible..... I will report back.

Thanks again guys. As always, this forum makes me a better HOn3 modeller....


Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Climax@...
 

What are you trying to do?  The wheel sets need a specific angle cut for the axle needles to ride in.  Central Valley Trucks had that angle down pat and is why those early trucks worked so well.  Kato did the same thing but with updated materials and they worked extremely well.  Recutting bearing surfaces is not for the timid.  You cannot have any tilt in the recut or you will end up with lopsided bearings and in worse shape than you started with.  The preferred cutter is the doubled eneded center crill, which is not really a drill, but for machining parts on a lathe.  It must be of the correct length to fit between the truck frames and turned by hand.  It only takes, depending on the material being cut, 1 to 3 turns to clean up a bearing.  If you remove top much material the bearing surface is above center line and lowers the car a tad, plus it gets sloppy.  My best advise is to get the proper tool for the job, use it as it says, and be happy with that or buy new trucks.
Drill bits are not cut, they are ground and are much harder than nails.  after you cut it is's still the wrong angle anyway so it needs to be reground on a drill sharpener or by a skilled machinest.
Dave  MMR200

-----Original Message-----
From: "kevin b via groups.io"
Sent: Apr 30, 2020 8:15 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Wheelset question

I know drill bits are hard to cut, but could one be cut to the length of an axel? Then slipped into the side frame? It would have to be reversed for the other side of the truck. Just a thought......


well, they break like going out of style if you're not careful, so,,,, why couldn't one be cut?
i'd say use a Dremel with a cutting disc, you know the stone type that ALSO break like no tomorrow.....

if it were me, i'd make the cut then round over the end of the bit there to some extent so it sorta fits up in the other axle pocket.
that way it would help keep itself "true" to the other side.
I can see this process ending up with mis-aligned holes if one isn't mindful of that ahead of time.
that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

thanks.
Kevin.



lloyd lehrer
 

The std ga. ones that I have seen all only cut on one end and must be flipped to the other side in order to cut both journals. They are sharp on both ends and are just 5 thous. longer than the intermountains that are my routine choice of replacement wheel sets. 

I can see using one single ended but what length would you want for a double ended? 2 thous. over length?

lloyd lehrer, (310)951-9097


On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 7:59 AM <Climax@...> wrote:
What are you trying to do?  The wheel sets need a specific angle cut for the axle needles to ride in.  Central Valley Trucks had that angle down pat and is why those early trucks worked so well.  Kato did the same thing but with updated materials and they worked extremely well.  Recutting bearing surfaces is not for the timid.  You cannot have any tilt in the recut or you will end up with lopsided bearings and in worse shape than you started with.  The preferred cutter is the doubled eneded center crill, which is not really a drill, but for machining parts on a lathe.  It must be of the correct length to fit between the truck frames and turned by hand.  It only takes, depending on the material being cut, 1 to 3 turns to clean up a bearing.  If you remove top much material the bearing surface is above center line and lowers the car a tad, plus it gets sloppy.  My best advise is to get the proper tool for the job, use it as it says, and be happy with that or buy new trucks.
Drill bits are not cut, they are ground and are much harder than nails.  after you cut it is's still the wrong angle anyway so it needs to be reground on a drill sharpener or by a skilled machinest.
Dave  MMR200

-----Original Message-----
From: "kevin b via groups.io"
Sent: Apr 30, 2020 8:15 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Wheelset question

I know drill bits are hard to cut, but could one be cut to the length of an axel? Then slipped into the side frame? It would have to be reversed for the other side of the truck. Just a thought......


well, they break like going out of style if you're not careful, so,,,, why couldn't one be cut?
i'd say use a Dremel with a cutting disc, you know the stone type that ALSO break like no tomorrow.....

if it were me, i'd make the cut then round over the end of the bit there to some extent so it sorta fits up in the other axle pocket.
that way it would help keep itself "true" to the other side.
I can see this process ending up with mis-aligned holes if one isn't mindful of that ahead of time.
that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

thanks.
Kevin.



--
lloyd lehrer


Ric Case
 

Brian these are what I generally use for tuning trucks  !

Ric Case
EBT Modeler
Hamilton Ohio
1-513-375-7694

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:15 AM kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I know drill bits are hard to cut, but could one be cut to the length of an axel? Then slipped into the side frame? It would have to be reversed for the other side of the truck. Just a thought......


well, they break like going out of style if you're not careful, so,,,, why couldn't one be cut?
i'd say use a Dremel with a cutting disc, you know the stone type that ALSO break like no tomorrow.....

if it were me, i'd make the cut then round over the end of the bit there to some extent so it sorta fits up in the other axle pocket.
that way it would help keep itself "true" to the other side.
I can see this process ending up with mis-aligned holes if one isn't mindful of that ahead of time.
that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

thanks.
Kevin.