tsunami 2


Robert Veefkind
 


good afternoon fellow users
 
I don't run stuff to often but I found after a layoff for a month or 2 my steamers seem to lose their memory. My K-37 had some sounds but the engine would not move and no steam sounds. Reset the on/off a bunch and no help. Complete reset cv 8 =8 but no difference. Another modeler said to reset 16 17 & 30 to 0  no help. Contacted Soundtraxx but no answer yet. Any one else have/had this problem ?    Bob Veefkind


Dale Buxton
 

Bob,
I've experienced this peculiarity too and I only have it with Tsunami II decoders with Keep-Alive Circuits installed. I have installed Tsunami II's in a highly modified Westside C-16 and 4 Blackstone Economy Boxcars set as Sound Cars. I've experienced this with every single one of these decoders. The problem only affects the Tsunami II's sound out-put. The problem might be with the consisting of my sound cars to the C-16. So. I always start by deleting all the consists stored in the DCC system.

First I have to ask this. What DCC system are you using? I am wondering if this might have something to do with one or more DCC systems out there.  

I run a NCE 5 amp system.

The only cure I've found that seems (most of the time) to fix this is to take the loco or sound car off of the track completely and let it sit for a while with no power whatsoever to it. Since I first encountered this peculiarity, I've never let them sit for less than a half-hour before re-tying to start them up again.

So this is my theory and it is only that. I think the problem has something to do with "In-Rush Track Voltage at System Start-Up. I've read in the NCE and SoundTraxx manuals that there is an In-Rush of Voltage at System Start-Up. I have an electronic voltage meter from American Hobby Distributors called a RRAMP/Meter. The nominal track voltage on an NCE system is 13.9 volts. But at start-up it will jump to as much as 14.1 volts (than I have purposely observed).

This in-rush of track voltage is because the NCE system detects a need for more voltage than the usual nominal track voltage of 13.9 volts in order to power up the "Keep-Alive Units". I only have the 5 Tsunami II's w/Keep-Alive, so I have to wonder if even more Tsunami II's w/Keep-Alive would prolong the duration of this Start-Up voltage in-rush. I've never formally asked this question of NCE or Sound Traxx.

My cure leads me to believe that there is some sort of voltage peak or thermal electronic circuit breaker (or maybe even both?) in the Tsunami II's that is there to protect the sound circuitry. In my theory the Keep-Alive must somehow be wired into the Tsunami II in between the ECB and the Sound Circuit. So when this ECB in the Tsunami II sound circuit detects a higher in-bound voltage than ECB's design limits, the ECB limits what is ultimately getting to the sound circuitry. The ECB must also have a thermal protector and a memory state of the ECB trip threshold being exceeded. I kind of wonder if this memory component to its trip-off state remains at shut-off of power and any power from the Keep-Alive keeps this memory state alive until all of the power is drained from the Keep-Alive.

None of my TCS or Loksound decoders with Keep-Alive (like) circuits exhibit this peculiarity. But allowing the Tsunami II to either cool down or drain completely of any residual power seems to end the problem.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 12:18 PM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

good afternoon fellow users
 
I don't run stuff to often but I found after a layoff for a month or 2 my steamers seem to lose their memory. My K-37 had some sounds but the engine would not move and no steam sounds. Reset the on/off a bunch and no help. Complete reset cv 8 =8 but no difference. Another modeler said to reset 16 17 & 30 to 0  no help. Contacted Soundtraxx but no answer yet. Any one else have/had this problem ?    Bob Veefkind


Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited

I've not heard of this happening though perhaps putting the question to the Soundtraxx list might shed more light.

As for inrush that's a current thing, not voltage. I am not sure how your  RRAMP meter is connected Dale, but you do not mention the current reading because that's the one that shows the inrush on start up, the difference of 0.2 volts is insignificant. Inrush is created by a number of stay alive devices starting to charge their capacitors at the same time which tricks the system into thinking it's seeing a short because the demand is so high and so sudden. That said stay alive units have a simple circuit to slow the charge current going into them but which allows the stay alive to discharge immediately when track power is not detected.

If you wire the RRAMP meter in series with the NCE output and not just across it, the inrush will be very apparent and much more than magnitudes of 0.2 in 14.

The stay alive is connected to the decoders' +ve and -ve DC rails. I think some of the early sound decoders seperated the motor circuit from the lights and sound but that no longer holds true.

Mark K


bob.meckley@...
 

Bob:
         A similar problem can occur with a NCE 5 Amp Power Pro if the internal battery goes dead. Replace the battery and things may go back to normal. I have all my decoder CV's in JMRI Decoder Pro files. I once used the Programming Track option to reset a loco and managed to reset all my locos to 003. Reset all one by one using Decoder Pro. Don't have a programming track on your layout as I have.

Bob Meckley


Dale Buxton
 

Mark

My Ramp/Meter is wired in as per the instructions and is working just fine. My start up current peak is about 0.23 milliamps. I do not get the 14+ volt reading at start up every time. Only occasionally. The SoundTraxx PDF for Sound Cars goes into this inrush current thing in great detail. So I have tried to obey the warnings in a like manner. I have only had this problem with Tsunami II decoders with Keep-Alive circuits attached. It might have something to do with consisting the sound cars with the locomotive and leaving them that way at system power off without freeing them from the consist prior to system shutdown. I just don't know. But every once in a while something confuses these decoders at startup and they don't work properly until they are cleared in some way. Either by removing power to them completely. Or clearing the previous consist record. Or re-selecting the locomove. or all of the above.  But, I have experienced exactly the same problem that Robert described. 

Tam Valley Depot has created a "Dumb Booster" to  separate the track power bus from the accessory's bus. As I understand the literature on the subject. Havinall all your accessory decoders on the track bus can also cause a current in-rush at system startup. It would seem as more and more items are added to the DCC world. More and more better ways to wire them need to be created.

Dale Buxton

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 1:09 AM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
I've not heard of this happening though perhaps putting the qjuestion to the Soundtraxx list might shed more light.

As for inrush that's a current thing, not voltage. I am not sure how your  RRAMP meter is connected Dale, but you do not mention the current reading because that's the one that shows the initial inrush on start up, the difference of 0.2 volts is insignificant. Inrush is created by a number of stay alive devices starting to charge their capacitors at the same time which tricks the system into thinking it's seeing a short because the demand is so high and so sudden. That said stay alive units have a simple circuit to slow the charge current going into them but which allows the stay alive to discharge fully when track power is not detected.

If you wire the RRAMP meter in series with the NCE output and not just across it, the inrush will be very apparent and much more than magnitudes of 0.2 in 14.

The stay alive is connected to the decoders' +ve and -ve DC rails. I think some of the early sound decoders seperated the motor circuit from the lights and sound but that no longer holds true.

Mark K


Climax@...
 

Mark and Dale:
I have been using separate power systems for my NCE systems ever since I started.  In other words I have separate systems that control track power, for the 37 tortoise switch machines, and for accessories like LED's, sound, and action devices such as turn tables.  By doing this I eliminated stray signals or the chance to taking out everything at once.  I use two of the NCE boosters for the track and switch machines and an old MRC 2400 and 1100 transformers for LEDs and TT power.  Seems to work well and allows me to trouble shoot things easliy.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton
Sent: May 17, 2021 7:51 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] tsunami 2

Mark

My Ramp/Meter is wired in as per the instructions and is working just fine. My start up current peak is about 0.23 milliamps. I do not get the 14+ volt reading at start up every time. Only occasionally. The SoundTraxx PDF for Sound Cars goes into this inrush current thing in great detail. So I have tried to obey the warnings in a like manner. I have only had this problem with Tsunami II decoders with Keep-Alive circuits attached. It might have something to do with consisting the sound cars with the locomotive and leaving them that way at system power off without freeing them from the consist prior to system shutdown. I just don't know. But every once in a while something confuses these decoders at startup and they don't work properly until they are cleared in some way. Either by removing power to them completely. Or clearing the previous consist record. Or re-selecting the locomove. or all of the above.  But, I have experienced exactly the same problem that Robert described. 

Tam Valley Depot has created a "Dumb Booster" to  separate the track power bus from the accessory's bus. As I understand the literature on the subject. Havinall all your accessory decoders on the track bus can also cause a current in-rush at system startup. It would seem as more and more items are added to the DCC world. More and more better ways to wire them need to be created.

Dale Buxton

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 1:09 AM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
I've not heard of this happening though perhaps putting the qjuestion to the Soundtraxx list might shed more light.

As for inrush that's a current thing, not voltage. I am not sure how your  RRAMP meter is connected Dale, but you do not mention the current reading because that's the one that shows the initial inrush on start up, the difference of 0.2 volts is insignificant. Inrush is created by a number of stay alive devices starting to charge their capacitors at the same time which tricks the system into thinking it's seeing a short because the demand is so high and so sudden. That said stay alive units have a simple circuit to slow the charge current going into them but which allows the stay alive to discharge fully when track power is not detected.

If you wire the RRAMP meter in series with the NCE output and not just across it, the inrush will be very apparent and much more than magnitudes of 0.2 in 14.

The stay alive is connected to the decoders' +ve and -ve DC rails. I think some of the early sound decoders seperated the motor circuit from the lights and sound but that no longer holds true.

Mark K