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RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question


Mark Rosche
 

So this is incorrect?



Regards,

Mark

Don‘t take life too seriously...no one gets out alive anyway....

On 2. Oct 2020, at 18:00, Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

The issue with the DP 461 is that both models are wrong.  

The RGS version doesn’t have the prominent pipe that ran up the RH side of the tender and terminated in a shutoff valve.  Nobody has ever modelled this correctly, not DP, not Blackstone, not PSC in the 1992 run. PSC did attempt it on the mid80s detail update they did on the Westside K27, the two cab version, but they bent the pipe over into the top of the tender instead of terminating it at the shutoff valve.  BTW everyone whose done RGS 20 has also got the same error; late on it also had a pipe up the rear half of the RH side of the tender that ended in a shutoff valve. NG Pictorial V1 p39 shows 461s tender, and the RGS 20 Quick pic book shows the valve on RGS20s tender.

The D&RGW version of 461 has the wrong steps at the tender front.  There was a period when the tender had some strap steps at the front, see NG Pictorial V11 pages 96 and 97.  See also on P97 that it has a tiny Flying Rio Grande on the cab, instead of D&RGW. I have seen these strap steps on one model, PBLs hybrid 461, but on their RGS version, which should have had the traditional steps. And that Sn3 RGS 461 is still missing the pipe up the RH side.

Ah well.  And don’t get me started on the DP 36/37 errors, including a completely wrong tender on 492.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M,T but it always ends WTF.


Mick Moignard
 

Mark

Yes, it’s wrong.  The rearward pipe does not go into the tank. The Pruitt drawing in Silver San Juan is wrong.

I’ll send some photos...

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M,T but it always ends WTF.


Mick Moignard
 

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
My second attempt model

Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!


Mark Rosche
 

Mick,

Many thanks for the info and pics!!!!

Regards,

Mark

Don‘t take life too seriously...no one gets out alive anyway....

On 3. Oct 2020, at 15:31, Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!


John Stutz
 

Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
My second attempt model

Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


Mick Moignard
 

John

No idea why it was there unless it was some sort of bleed valve, but both 20 and 461 had them and they’re rarely if ever modelled.

Mick

______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

On 3 Oct 2020, at 19:27, john.stutz@... wrote:

 Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


Climax@...
 

Could it be used to drain condensation or water from an airline in the winter so it did not freeze up?

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard
Sent: Oct 3, 2020 2:41 PM
To: john.stutz@...
Cc: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question

John

No idea why it was there unless it was some sort of bleed valve, but both 20 and 461 had them and they’re rarely if ever modelled.

Mick

______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

On 3 Oct 2020, at 19:27, john.stutz@... wrote:

 Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


bassb04011
 

I don't think 20 had the 2nd pipe until very late (post 1948 at least).
Brian


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Climax@... <Climax@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:21 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Could it be used to drain condensation or water from an airline in the winter so it did not freeze up?

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard
Sent: Oct 3, 2020 2:41 PM
To: john.stutz@...
Cc: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question

John

No idea why it was there unless it was some sort of bleed valve, but both 20 and 461 had them and they’re rarely if ever modelled.

Mick

______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

On 3 Oct 2020, at 19:27, john.stutz@... wrote:

 Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


Dale Buxton
 

It's a "Dump Valve".  This is what the late Dave Garcia told me it was. When he worked for the Southern Pacific, He was the guy you wanted to talk to in the air brakes. So he would have known. This was a pretty standard item after the more modern air brake systems started to be applied to the D&RGW and RGS locomotives. It usually is accompanied by another pipe with a retainer valve at the end and sometimes even a third pipe with a pipe union with a plug in the end or a set of two elbows back to back that are plugged after the last elbow. What the purpose of the third pipe is, I have no idea. Perhaps an auxiliary air line tap point maybe? I was working on the 3D computer model for printing of this pipe cluster for Dave when he died earlier this year. I think for printing purposes though, pipes are simply too small of tha diameter for the current printers to make. In any case, these hardly ever got modeled correctly by the old importers. 

You have to remember that the tender that the 20 had behind it up until it's recent rebuilding came from one of the other RGS ten wheelers. Forget which one. The 20 had this air-line pipe custer arrangement on the  first tender it had on the RGS. But it was on the engineers side of the tender close to the water area and it didn't go much above the deck rivet line.

This oddly located "Dump Valve" was probably put by the air tank because it was an easier access point for the brakeman than for him to hang off the side of the tender to throw it open.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 1:24 PM bassb04011 <fishingmaine@...> wrote:
I don't think 20 had the 2nd pipe until very late (post 1948 at least).
Brian


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Climax@... <Climax@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:21 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Could it be used to drain condensation or water from an airline in the winter so it did not freeze up?

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard
Sent: Oct 3, 2020 2:41 PM
To: john.stutz@...
Cc: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question

John

No idea why it was there unless it was some sort of bleed valve, but both 20 and 461 had them and they’re rarely if ever modelled.

Mick

______________________________________
Mick Moignard
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

On 3 Oct 2020, at 19:27, john.stutz@... wrote:

 Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


Mick Moignard
 

RGS 20 got the tender, cab and some other parts from 25 in the 1944 rebuild from the 1943 wreck. 25 was taken out of service around 1940 and slowly lost parts for some years; see the various photos in volumes of  RGS Story, specifically V12 P72/3.  The pipe on the 20's tender was not there in May 1947; various photos of 20 used on a fantrip show that, but it was there by 1950.  I've never seen a photo of 461 in RGS livery without the pipe up the RH tender side.

Mick
______________________________________________________________________
Mick Moignard
Specialising in DCC Sound
p: +44 7774 652504
e:
mick@...
skype: mickmoignard
The week may start M,T but it always ends up WTF!


John Stutz
 

Thanks Dale

"Dump Valve" is the key: as in "dumping the air". If you look at any of the air brake systems based on the Quick Action triple valve of 1886+ (H and later K triples), you will find a small dump valve on the bottom of the air tank. This is a check valve which can be opened by pulling on a rigid wire(~1/8" and very rarely modeled), with one extending to each side of the underframe. Opening this would release any condensed water in the tank, but the main purpose was to release the brake when the air tank/cylinder application air pressure was too high for the train line pressure to release the brake. With cars, this requires a man on the ground, presumably while the train is stopped. Putting it at tender top level allowed access while the train is moving, and on the car most likely to suffer the problem.

As to why: Trainline air pressure provides the power for each car's brake, while pressure variations control each brake's actions. In theory. Which worked quite well for the initial applications to short trains, where pressure could be held nearly uniform throughout. With longer trains, and when making up trains, application and release could be less certain, due to pressure fluctuations over the trainline's length. Thus the air brake test required, when making up trains, with inspectors on the ground and checking every car to ensure that all the brakes apply AND release properly. Since pressure fluctuations are greatest at the engine, if the tender has an ordinary freight car brake, it is most subject to control problems. Thus the accessible dump valve.

Note that this is distinct from the retainer valve. A dump valve is connected to the air reservoir. A retainer is piped to the triple valve's exhaust port, and when activated prevents the cylinder pressure being completely exhausted when the brake is released.

I hope this makes sense. Dave would have made it clearer, but ...

John Stutz

On October 5, 2020 at 4:52 AM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:

It's a "Dump Valve".  This is what the late Dave Garcia told me it was. When he worked for the Southern Pacific, He was the guy you wanted to talk to in the air brakes. So he would have known. This was a pretty standard item after the more modern air brake systems started to be applied to the D&RGW and RGS locomotives. It usually is accompanied by another pipe with a retainer valve at the end and sometimes even a third pipe with a pipe union with a plug in the end or a set of two elbows back to back that are plugged after the last elbow. What the purpose of the third pipe is, I have no idea. Perhaps an auxiliary air line tap point maybe? I was working on the 3D computer model for printing of this pipe cluster for Dave when he died earlier this year. I think for printing purposes though, pipes are simply too small of tha diameter for the current printers to make. In any case, these hardly ever got modeled correctly by the old importers. 

You have to remember that the tender that the 20 had behind it up until it's recent rebuilding came from one of the other RGS ten wheelers. Forget which one. The 20 had this air-line pipe custer arrangement on the  first tender it had on the RGS. But it was on the engineers side of the tender close to the water area and it didn't go much above the deck rivet line.

This oddly located "Dump Valve" was probably put by the air tank because it was an easier access point for the brakeman than for him to hang off the side of the tender to throw it open.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 1:24 PM bassb04011 < fishingmaine@...> wrote:
I don't think 20 had the 2nd pipe until very late (post 1948 at least).
Brian


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Climax@... <Climax@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 3:21 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Could it be used to drain condensation or water from an airline in the winter so it did not freeze up?

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard
Sent: Oct 3, 2020 2:41 PM
To: john.stutz@...
Cc: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question

John

No idea why it was there unless it was some sort of bleed valve, but both 20 and 461 had them and they’re rarely if ever modelled.

Mick

______________________________________
Mick Moignard
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

On 3 Oct 2020, at 19:27, john.stutz@... wrote:

 Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard < mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
<image0.jpeg>

My second attempt model
<image1.jpeg>


Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


 


LARRY KLOSE
 

I was looking in the RGS Story Vol. 12 (which is mostly a survey of roster and Real Estate) for something else so I looked at # 20.  Multiple pictures from the excursions in 1947 and others about that time show no second pipe-just one going directly into the air tank with no valve on it. So maybe it was a later ICC requirement or something like that.

 

Did the dump valve have the same function as those in caboose cupolas?

 

Larry


LARRY KLOSE
 

Then I looked at my PBL locos: #20, first run, excursion paint job, has 2 right side, vertical pipes, no valve, back dropping fromthe air tank and two pipes at the front with a valve on one.  #454 and 461 Hybrids, two pipes with valve at right front side of tender, nothing at rear.  Same with my brass 452 ('89 run).   #42: first run, early 40's with the two pipes with one valve on front, and one air line running along top of tender side to air tank. 

I'm crushed, my locos may be inaccurate.<G>



Mark Kasprowicz
 

A few years back I drove steam trains on the Wolsztyn line in Poland. Each of the locomotives had a brake dump operated by a wire inside the cab. It was situated by the cab side on the drivers side. It was used to release the train brake when it was slow to release.

Mark K
Oxon England


John Stutz
 

Mark

This use of dump is new to me.  In North America, dumping the air on a car means to release air form the car's air reservoir.  Dumping the air on a train means to release essentially all air from the train line, which immediately triggers emergency braking. 

From your description, dumping air to release the brakes, the Wolsztyn line is using a straight air brake. 

John

On October 5, 2020 a t 11:12 PM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

A few years back I drove steam trains on the Wolsztyn line in Poland. Each of the locomotives had a brake dump operated by a wire inside the cab. It was situated by the cab side on the drivers side. It was used to release the train brake when it was slow to release.

Mark K
Oxon England


claneon30
 

In talking to the Museum’s CMO Jeff Taylor, they found any number of parts from No. 22 as well.

All the best,

Chris Lane - Editor On30 Annual
chrislaneon30@...

On Oct 5, 2020, at 8:00 AM, Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

RGS 20 got the tender, cab and some other parts from 25 in the 1944 rebuild from the 1943 wreck. 25 was taken out of service around 1940 and slowly lost parts for some years; see the various photos in volumes of  RGS Story, specifically V12 P72/3.  The pipe on the 20's tender was not there in May 1947; various photos of 20 used on a fantrip show that, but it was there by 1950.  I've never seen a photo of 461 in RGS livery without the pipe up the RH tender side.

Mick
______________________________________________________________________
Mick Moignard
Specialising in DCC Sound
p: +44 7774 652504
e:
mick@...
skype: mickmoignard
The week may start M,T but it always ends up WTF!


Earl Knoob
 

The semi-official term for releasing the air from the aux reservoir under the car is called "bleeding the car off".  It is used when a car with the brakes charged is uncoupled and the brake hoses part, setting the brakes.  In order to release the brakes without hooking the hoses back up (switching without air brakes is pretty common), you have to pull on the "bleed off rod" to release the remaining air out of the aux reservoir and brake cylinder. 


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of John Stutz <john.stutz@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 1:46 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Mark

This use of dump is new to me.  In North America, dumping the air on a car means to release air form the car's air reservoir.  Dumping the air on a train means to release essentially all air from the train line, which immediately triggers emergency braking. 

From your description, dumping air to release the brakes, the Wolsztyn line is using a straight air brake. 

John
On October 5, 2020 a t 11:12 PM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

A few years back I drove steam trains on the Wolsztyn line in Poland. Each of the locomotives had a brake dump operated by a wire inside the cab. It was situated by the cab side on the drivers side. It was used to release the train brake when it was slow to release.

Mark K
Oxon England


Earl Knoob
 

The valve in question is an emergency brake valve or "dump valve".  The head end brakemen on RGS trains frequently rode on the tops of the tenders.  The RGS even made a small "doghouse" shelter for use on K-27 which had larger tenders.  The pipe went down to the brake pipe under the tender.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of John Stutz <john.stutz@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 12:27 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>; Mick Moignard <mick@...>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Mick

Now I am curious: You have plug valve on a pipe adjacent to an air tank. Presumably it has something to do with the air brake system. So what is on the other end of that pipe? And what is the valve used for?

John Stutz

On October 3, 2020 at 6:31 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

QuickPic RGS 20 P 60
My second attempt model

Mick
______________________________________
Mick Moignard
mick@...
p:+44 7774 652504
skype: mickmoignard

The week may start M, T, but it always ends WTF!

 

 


John Stutz
 

Thanks Earl

You are quite correct, on both counts, although one only needs to close the angle cocks to uncouple and switch cars wile the brake reservoir is charged.

John

On October 7, 2020 at 7:22 PM Earl Knoob <earlk489@...> wrote:

The semi-official term for releasing the air from the aux reservoir under the car is called "bleeding the car off".  It is used when a car with the brakes charged is uncoupled and the brake hoses part, setting the brakes.  In order to release the brakes without hooking the hoses back up (switching without air brakes is pretty common), you have to pull on the "bleed off rod" to release the remaining air out of the aux reservoir and brake cylinder. 
 


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of John Stutz <john.stutz@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 1:46 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Mark

This use of dump is new to me.  In North America, dumping the air on a car means to release air form the car's air reservoir.  Dumping the air on a train means to release essentially all air from the train line, which immediately triggers emergency braking. 

From your description, dumping air to release the brakes, the Wolsztyn line is using a straight air brake. 

John
On October 5, 2020 a t 11:12 PM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

A few years back I drove steam trains on the Wolsztyn line in Poland. Each of the locomotives had a brake dump operated by a wire inside the cab. It was situated by the cab side on the drivers side. It was used to release the train brake when it was slow to release.

Mark K
Oxon England

 


Climax@...
 


I always thought that the lack of air pressure set the brakes.  If a line rupture they cylinders would empty and as it did the brakes came on slowly.  Am I wrong?  If a car is set on a siding and some nitwit came along and released the air the brakes should set no matter what, unless someone is smart enough to burn the brake wheel to release them or does that only set them?
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Oct 8, 2020 2:07 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question

Thanks Earl

You are quite correct, on both counts, although one only needs to close the angle cocks to uncouple and switch cars wile the brake reservoir is charged.

John
On October 7, 2020 at 7:22 PM Earl Knoob <earlk489@...> wrote:

The semi-official term for releasing the air from the aux reservoir under the car is called "bleeding the car off".  It is used when a car with the brakes charged is uncoupled and the brake hoses part, setting the brakes.  In order to release the brakes without hooking the hoses back up (switching without air brakes is pretty common), you have to pull on the "bleed off rod" to release the remaining air out of the aux reservoir and brake cylinder. 
 


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of John Stutz <john.stutz@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 1:46 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question
 
Mark

This use of dump is new to me.  In North America, dumping the air on a car means to release air form the car's air reservoir.  Dumping the air on a train means to release essentially all air from the train line, which immediately triggers emergency braking. 

From your description, dumping air to release the brakes, the Wolsztyn line is using a straight air brake. 

John
On October 5, 2020 a t 11:12 PM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

A few years back I drove steam trains on the Wolsztyn line in Poland. Each of the locomotives had a brake dump operated by a wire inside the cab. It was situated by the cab side on the drivers side. It was used to release the train brake when it was slow to release.

Mark K
Oxon England