Passenger Car Roofs


Don Bergman
 

I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman


Eric Schrowang
 

Don,
I have seen alot of folks use tissue paper and diluted white glue and then use a black / grey paint.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 7:46 AM Don Bergman <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman


Climax@...
 

I like using Model Airplane "Silk Span" which in that hobby is used to cover wings and other airfoils.  I have been usng it for years.  I actually cut it up in the sizes i want, place it dry where I want it and then paint it with floquil grimy black.  The paint becomes the adhesive.  Any extra I have hanging off the sides I cut off with a fresh sharp razor blade.  I guess I works fine as when I placed my 7 car train of Labelle cars with interiors and under workings it placed 1-2-3 and I was told to not block he category by bringing back the others for a while.  hahhahaha
Dave   MMR#200

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Schrowang
Sent: May 11, 2021 7:48 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Don,
I have seen alot of folks use tissue paper and diluted white glue and then use a black / grey paint.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 7:46 AM Don Bergman <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman


tankcreek
 

I recall a response to this question made by Randy Hees on another discussion group, where he explained that most of the roofing material on the passenger cars our models represent were covered in tin, with overlapping seams, not canvas.  I don't know where the concept of passenger cars with clerestory style roofs being covered in canvas came from in our hobby, but I recall articles in Model Railroader and Craftsman going back to the 1950s talking about various methods to represent canvas-covered roofing material.  Perhaps others with additional knowledge about this can weigh in.  Applying silk span, tissue paper, masking tape or other material to represent canvas would be a lot easier than applying a material that should represent smooth sheet metal!  But, I suspect the roofs were sheet metal.
 
Dick Patton


Wayne
 

Here's a photo of the CC's coaches that shows the most roof I've been able to find.  While not very clear, seems to me a sheet metal roof would show a definite pattern of rivets throughout the roof. 
ccco187-188_StonyPt_1889.jpg

--
Wayne Taylor


john_vivian
 

Wayne:
Nice photo of CC car, just to add fyi. Attached is photo standing on the roof of restored passenger car 292 on the C&TS. I have not it was taken in Feb 2018.  Crew had just finished soldering the last of the roof panels on the clerestory. Some where I have photos of the process of fitting and seam soldering each of the panels. The curve on the bull nose end was done with longer thin panel at 90 degrees from the main rood panels.
Will post when/if i can find them.  Hope that helps.
John Vivian

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 9:29:20 AM PDT, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


Here's a photo of the CC's coaches that shows the most roof I've been able to find.  While not very clear, seems to me a sheet metal roof would show a definite pattern of rivets throughout the roof. 
ccco187-188_StonyPt_1889.jpg

--
Wayne Taylor


Mark Lewis
 

John,

Great detail photos of METAL SEAMED Roofing!

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.


On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 12:43 PM john_vivian via groups.io <john_vivian=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Wayne:
Nice photo of CC car, just to add fyi. Attached is photo standing on the roof of restored passenger car 292 on the C&TS. I have not it was taken in Feb 2018.  Crew had just finished soldering the last of the roof panels on the clerestory. Some where I have photos of the process of fitting and seam soldering each of the panels. The curve on the bull nose end was done with longer thin panel at 90 degrees from the main rood panels.
Will post when/if i can find them.  Hope that helps.
John Vivian

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 9:29:20 AM PDT, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


Here's a photo of the CC's coaches that shows the most roof I've been able to find.  While not very clear, seems to me a sheet metal roof would show a definite pattern of rivets throughout the roof. 
ccco187-188_StonyPt_1889.jpg

--
Wayne Taylor


Don Bergman
 

Thanks for all the great ideas.

I've always wondered why Canvas and if used why not bigger sheets. Fewer joints.  Seems not very durable.
If tin, how about using aluminum heat Duct tape.

Working on RGS 0260

Don Bergman


Bryian Sones
 

Could it possible that roofs were original covered in canvas and builders transitioned to tin?
Later during war when there was a shortage on metal, RRs went back to canvas to repair cars a Maybe this is where the idea came that passenger cars were covered in canvas?

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
D&RGW Sn3 and Hon3
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 11:10:26 AM PDT, Don Bergman <dbrenegade@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the great ideas.

I've always wondered why Canvas and if used why not bigger sheets. Fewer joints.  Seems not very durable.
If tin, how about using aluminum heat Duct tape.

Working on RGS 0260

Don Bergman


Eric Schrowang
 

So in doing some research on the internet it was not until the 1930s that RR car manufacturers started using steel. Before that it was wood and the roofs look like
they were coved by either tar paper or canvas.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 2:38 PM Bryian Sones via groups.io <bryian.sones=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Could it possible that roofs were original covered in canvas and builders transitioned to tin?
Later during war when there was a shortage on metal, RRs went back to canvas to repair cars a Maybe this is where the idea came that passenger cars were covered in canvas?

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
D&RGW Sn3 and Hon3
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 11:10:26 AM PDT, Don Bergman <dbrenegade@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the great ideas.

I've always wondered why Canvas and if used why not bigger sheets. Fewer joints.  Seems not very durable.
If tin, how about using aluminum heat Duct tape.

Working on RGS 0260

Don Bergman


Randy Hees
 

Most* D&RGW passenger cars had turne metal roofs, not canvas... made up of about 22"x30" sheets, with seams crimped and soldered

*the only exceptions that come to mind are the early arch roofed RPO cars....

Randy Hees

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:59 AM <Climax@...> wrote:
I like using Model Airplane "Silk Span" which in that hobby is used to cover wings and other airfoils.  I have been usng it for years.  I actually cut it up in the sizes i want, place it dry where I want it and then paint it with floquil grimy black.  The paint becomes the adhesive.  Any extra I have hanging off the sides I cut off with a fresh sharp razor blade.  I guess I works fine as when I placed my 7 car train of Labelle cars with interiors and under workings it placed 1-2-3 and I was told to not block he category by bringing back the others for a while.  hahhahaha
Dave   MMR#200

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Schrowang
Sent: May 11, 2021 7:48 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Don,
I have seen alot of folks use tissue paper and diluted white glue and then use a black / grey paint.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 7:46 AM Don Bergman <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman


Climax@...
 

I would use some tin foil and draw the weld lines with a dull pencil on the bottom side to push the metal up.  After that smear white glue in the weld joints to keep them from collapsing,  then glue it in place with white glue and paint.  The aluminum foil will be easy to form and press into place with a finger pressure or finger nail as well as cut with a sharp razor blade.
DAve

-----Original Message-----
From: "john_vivian via groups.io"
Sent: May 11, 2021 12:42 PM
To: "HOn3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Wayne:
Nice photo of CC car, just to add fyi. Attached is photo standing on the roof of restored passenger car 292 on the C&TS. I have not it was taken in Feb 2018.  Crew had just finished soldering the last of the roof panels on the clerestory. Some where I have photos of the process of fitting and seam soldering each of the panels. The curve on the bull nose end was done with longer thin panel at 90 degrees from the main rood panels.
Will post when/if i can find them.  Hope that helps.
John Vivian

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 9:29:20 AM PDT, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


Here's a photo of the CC's coaches that shows the most roof I've been able to find.  While not very clear, seems to me a sheet metal roof would show a definite pattern of rivets throughout the roof. 


--
Wayne Taylor


Bryian Sones
 

I would maybe try the Archer Micro Weld Lines or the Raised Panel Lines to simulate it. 

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
D&RGW Sn3 and Hon3
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 07:37:47 PM PDT, Climax@... <climax@...> wrote:


I would use some tin foil and draw the weld lines with a dull pencil on the bottom side to push the metal up.  After that smear white glue in the weld joints to keep them from collapsing,  then glue it in place with white glue and paint.  The aluminum foil will be easy to form and press into place with a finger pressure or finger nail as well as cut with a sharp razor blade.
DAve

-----Original Message-----
From: "john_vivian via groups.io"
Sent: May 11, 2021 12:42 PM
To: "HOn3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Wayne:
Nice photo of CC car, just to add fyi. Attached is photo standing on the roof of restored passenger car 292 on the C&TS. I have not it was taken in Feb 2018.  Crew had just finished soldering the last of the roof panels on the clerestory. Some where I have photos of the process of fitting and seam soldering each of the panels. The curve on the bull nose end was done with longer thin panel at 90 degrees from the main rood panels.
Will post when/if i can find them.  Hope that helps.
John Vivian

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 9:29:20 AM PDT, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


Here's a photo of the CC's coaches that shows the most roof I've been able to find.  While not very clear, seems to me a sheet metal roof would show a definite pattern of rivets throughout the roof. 
ccco187-188_StonyPt_1889.jpg

--
Wayne Taylor


John Stutz
 

Eric

In North America, all-steel passenger car construction was initially sparked by subway construction in New York, with early fleet level common carrier purchases driven by the opening of New York's Penn Station, where only steel rolling stock was allowed in the long approach tunnels.  Such cars are already illustrated in the 1909 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, on p251, with drawings of early versions on p389-90. 

Of course most passenger cares were then made of wood, some with wood bodies on a steel underframe with steel framed vestibule.   Steel passenger car construction largely supplemented, without wholly replacing, wood car construction by 1920, but over half the nation's passenger stock still had wood bodies in 1930, and perhaps as late as 1940.

New NG passenger cars built in the teens, for the ET&WNC and the Sumpter Valley (1918), used trussed steel underframes with some steel upper framing in essentially wooden bodies.  I believe that the first North American all steel NG common carrier passenger car was WP&Y #256, Lake LeBarge, built by PC&F in 1936. 

Regarding car roofs, the 1909 CBD's dictionary section has:
"...Passenger car roofs are commonly of tin, zinc, or galvanized iron or steel of about #22 W.G., painted.  For street cars, painted canvas is used."  

Both metal and canvas coverings go over a wooden sub roof. 

Regarding Roofing Canvas: "A heavy cotton cloth or duck, for covering the outside of the roofs of cars, chiefly used on street cars. 
In Great Britain it is universality used for all cars with roofs.  It is bedded on fresh thick white lead, or Smudge, which see, and then receives several coats of the same paint."

Given the strong influence of British publications on American RR modeling practice century ago, the last may explain why we traditionally model passenger car roofs as being canvas covered: We have just been copying those who went before us!

John Stutz

On May 11, 2021 12:00 PM Eric Schrowang <eschrowang@...> wrote:


So in doing some research on the internet it was not until the 1930s that RR car manufacturers started using steel. Before that it was wood and the roofs look like
they were coved by either tar paper or canvas.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 2:38 PM Bryian Sones via groups.io <bryian.sones= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Could it possible that roofs were original covered in canvas and builders transitioned to tin?
Later during war when there was a shortage on metal, RRs went back to canvas to repair cars a Maybe this is where the idea came that passenger cars were covered in canvas?

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
D&RGW Sn3 and Hon3
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, May 11, 2021, 11:10:26 AM PDT, Don Bergman < dbrenegade@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the great ideas.

I've always wondered why Canvas and if used why not bigger sheets. Fewer joints.  Seems not very durable.
If tin, how about using aluminum heat Duct tape.

Working on RGS 0260

Don Bergman




Mike Conder
 

Thanks Randy. 

So the obvious question: did those early RPO cars have canvas roofs over wood like early loco cabs?

Mike Conder

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:48 PM Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:
Most* D&RGW passenger cars had turne metal roofs, not canvas... made up of about 22"x30" sheets, with seams crimped and soldered

*the only exceptions that come to mind are the early arch roofed RPO cars....

Randy Hees

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:59 AM <Climax@...> wrote:
I like using Model Airplane "Silk Span" which in that hobby is used to cover wings and other airfoils.  I have been usng it for years.  I actually cut it up in the sizes i want, place it dry where I want it and then paint it with floquil grimy black.  The paint becomes the adhesive.  Any extra I have hanging off the sides I cut off with a fresh sharp razor blade.  I guess I works fine as when I placed my 7 car train of Labelle cars with interiors and under workings it placed 1-2-3 and I was told to not block he category by bringing back the others for a while.  hahhahaha
Dave   MMR#200

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Schrowang
Sent: May 11, 2021 7:48 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Don,
I have seen alot of folks use tissue paper and diluted white glue and then use a black / grey paint.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 7:46 AM Don Bergman <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman

--
Mike Conder


Randy Hees
 

The earliest RPO's seem to have canvas over wood...   Early Baldwin practice was metal cab roofs, including Eureka...

Randy Hees


Mike Conder
 

Thanks Randy!

There's a photo in Myrick's "RR of Arizona Vol. 3" that shows a wrecked Porter 36" 2-6-0 that was built in 1883 that definitely shows a canvas roof over a wood can roof.  Pretty neat, and I always wondered if Baldwin had a similar design. 

Mike Conder

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 3:32 PM Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:
The earliest RPO's seem to have canvas over wood...   Early Baldwin practice was metal cab roofs, including Eureka...

Randy Hees

--
Mike Conder


Dave
 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terneplate There is a little spelling error below. 
"...sheet iron or steel coated with an alloy of about four parts lead to one part tin".

On Wednesday, May 12, 2021, 10:37:54 AM CDT, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:


Thanks Randy. 

So the obvious question: did those early RPO cars have canvas roofs over wood like early loco cabs?

Mike Conder

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:48 PM Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:
Most* D&RGW passenger cars had turne metal roofs, not canvas... made up of about 22"x30" sheets, with seams crimped and soldered

*the only exceptions that come to mind are the early arch roofed RPO cars....

Randy Hees

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:59 AM <Climax@...> wrote:
I like using Model Airplane "Silk Span" which in that hobby is used to cover wings and other airfoils.  I have been usng it for years.  I actually cut it up in the sizes i want, place it dry where I want it and then paint it with floquil grimy black.  The paint becomes the adhesive.  Any extra I have hanging off the sides I cut off with a fresh sharp razor blade.  I guess I works fine as when I placed my 7 car train of Labelle cars with interiors and under workings it placed 1-2-3 and I was told to not block he category by bringing back the others for a while.  hahhahaha
Dave   MMR#200

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Schrowang
Sent: May 11, 2021 7:48 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Passenger Car Roofs

Don,
I have seen alot of folks use tissue paper and diluted white glue and then use a black / grey paint.

Eric

On Tue, May 11, 2021, 7:46 AM Don Bergman <DBRenegade@...> wrote:
I am looking for suggestion to simulate the canvas roof on my LaBelle Passenger car fleet.

Don Bergman

--
Mike Conder


tonyk537
 

roof details


tonyk537
 

HOn3 roofs.

Labelle or MRGS scribed