Topics

KADEE 705 couplers WAS_Any narrow gauge news from the NMRA National Convention

Dale Buxton
 

?I hate to burst Kadee's bubble. While the 705 will indeed go anywhere that a 714 will go. There are two problems. I just spent the last hour or so experimenting with this.

1. As I mentioned before, the little centering spring really needs to be in it's designed slot with about 1/32" of horizontal play. It is all but impossible to get that idy-biddy spring in the back of the coupler shank and behind the pivot post in a Kadee 714 coupler box or 714 clone coupler box ( like the one on a Blackstone car ) . If you by some chance of magic get in it in there. It will be completely compressed and the centering action is lost!

2.  The 705 coupler's shank thickness is only .041". A Kadee 714's shank thickness is .057". The 705's shank is way thinner!  The Kadee 714 coupler boxes inside height at the pivot post is .067". This gives the 705 coupler  .026" of vertical play and no spring torsion pushing against it to hold it on the vertical plane. It sticks out there, drooping down to a 15 to 20 degree angle and flops around unable to mate with any other coupler. This fix of coarse, is to add about .025" of shim washers to the pivot post to get the thing to sit level in the coupler box. More work and expense I didn't want.

And once again the Sergent Sharon type coupler was purpose designed to fit in  the Kadee 714 box and is clones with no vertical play. Yes I am a proponent of Sharon couplers. But, I am also will to try new things. This new coupler design of Kadee's is turning out to be more work that I want to deal with.

Why in the world did they make the 705's shank thickness so much thinner than the 714's??? Why did the make the pivot post such a unique and generally uncombatable design with what is already on the market?

It's both baffling and disappointing for this modeler. 

Dale B 

NarrowMinded1
 

Dale,

Re: Shank thickness/droop: Can't you just glue a strip of styrene to the coupler box or lid? I'm not concerned abput losing the automatic centering, which is unprototyipical anyway, as m pluch as the droop and causing coupler height issues.
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ

Dale Buxton
 

Nathan,

I agree about self-centering couplers not being prototypical. I use Sergent couplers and they don't self center and they work just fine for me. But, there are people in our HOn3 community who's entire coupling experience is ruined without a self-centering coupler.

 I have found that you simply can't please everyone on the coupler issue in HOn3. I for one dislike just about everything about Kadee 714's. This dislike goes back almost 50 years. I dislike the box they go in, the space it needs, the split shank, the slinky effect in a train of cars and the fact that they make you butcher a locomotive pilot to get one in there! It has not helped that they were the only automatic coupler show in town for most of those 50 years.

As to your plastic shim idea. Yeah sure why not. except... The 714 coupler box is made of an engineering plastic. Celcon I think. These plastics resist cements and glues. So what would you glut it with? It's said that Dr. Mike's has a version of CA that will glue to Delrin. This might include Celcon. But, I have no experience with their products. It would probably be far easier to glue the shim to the bottom of the coupler shank. Or shim it with washers like I said before. 

So the quest for HOn3 coupler nirvana goes on. I Just happen to like to experiment and hopefully help others in the process. But, observations, actual facts and conclusions are important parts of successful experimentation.   

Dale B

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:19 AM NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:
Dale,

Re: Shank thickness/droop: Can't you just glue a strip of styrene to the coupler box or lid? I'm not concerned abput losing the automatic centering, which is unprototyipical anyway, as m pluch as the droop and causing coupler height issues.
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ

Doug Cummings
 

Generally speaking in the real world (prototype) it was the switchman or whoever was doing the switching work who would center the coupler to align it for coupling. 

I never saw a coupler that would center itself. Often whoever was doing the uncoupling could/would realign the coupler. 

D.E.C.


From: "Dale Buxton" <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2019 12:19:52 PM
Subject: Re: [HOn3] KADEE 705 couplers WAS_Any narrow gauge news from the NMRA National Convention

Nathan,
I agree about self-centering couplers not being prototypical. I use Sergent couplers and they don't self center and they work just fine for me. But, there are people in our HOn3 community who's entire coupling experience is ruined without a self-centering coupler.

 I have found that you simply can't please everyone on the coupler issue in HOn3. I for one dislike just about everything about Kadee 714's. This dislike goes back almost 50 years. I dislike the box they go in, the space it needs, the split shank, the slinky effect in a train of cars and the fact that they make you butcher a locomotive pilot to get one in there! It has not helped that they were the only automatic coupler show in town for most of those 50 years.

As to your plastic shim idea. Yeah sure why not. except... The 714 coupler box is made of an engineering plastic. Celcon I think. These plastics resist cements and glues. So what would you glut it with? It's said that Dr. Mike's has a version of CA that will glue to Delrin. This might include Celcon. But, I have no experience with their products. It would probably be far easier to glue the shim to the bottom of the coupler shank. Or shim it with washers like I said before. 

So the quest for HOn3 coupler nirvana goes on. I Just happen to like to experiment and hopefully help others in the process. But, observations, actual facts and conclusions are important parts of successful experimentation.   

Dale B

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:19 AM NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:
Dale,

Re: Shank thickness/droop: Can't you just glue a strip of styrene to the coupler box or lid? I'm not concerned abput losing the automatic centering, which is unprototyipical anyway, as m pluch as the droop and causing coupler height issues.
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ


Labo44
 

Kadee HOn3 #705 Coupler
------------------------
My conclusions after many tests

The Coupler #705 can only be used with its housing.
Any installation in a different housing is almost impossible because of the centering system.

I installed the coupler on two vehicles by adjusting perfectly the height of the coupler and the uncoupling rod.

705/705 tests
The coupling can only be perfectly aligned.
Uncoupling on a permanent magnet is very difficult, if not impossible !
Uncoupling on an electromagnetic uncoupler is just as difficult !
The horizontal part of the uncoupling pin is too short and the spring of the knuckle is too hard !
Once uncoupled, delayed uncoupling is random, knuckles do not open enough.

705/714 tests
The coupling is possible with a small misalignment.
Uncoupling on a permanent magnet or an electromagnetic uncoupler is impossible,
the uncoupling rod of the 714 pulls the two couplers on the same side !

In summary, I continue with the good old #714 that works perfectly, although it is less realistic than the #705.

Let's hope Kadee does not stop production of #714 ...

Sincerely, ~JES~

Dale Buxton
 

YES! Absolutely! I've watched train crews make up trains in Chama doing just this! The switchman puts his brake club in the draft gear area and aligns the coupler and its still being done today. However, in the prototype world there is an ongoing world wide quest to design a coupler that self aligns and has air and electrical contacts integral with the coupler head. No one has a design that has been standardized and adopted outside of the places of origin yet. But the day is coming. 

Dale B

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 2:15 PM Doug Cummings <dougcummings@...> wrote:
Generally speaking in the real world (prototype) it was the switchman or whoever was doing the switching work who would center the coupler to align it for coupling. 

I never saw a coupler that would center itself. Often whoever was doing the uncoupling could/would realign the coupler. 

D.E.C.


From: "Dale Buxton" <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2019 12:19:52 PM
Subject: Re: [HOn3] KADEE 705 couplers WAS_Any narrow gauge news from the NMRA National Convention

Nathan,
I agree about self-centering couplers not being prototypical. I use Sergent couplers and they don't self center and they work just fine for me. But, there are people in our HOn3 community who's entire coupling experience is ruined without a self-centering coupler.

 I have found that you simply can't please everyone on the coupler issue in HOn3. I for one dislike just about everything about Kadee 714's. This dislike goes back almost 50 years. I dislike the box they go in, the space it needs, the split shank, the slinky effect in a train of cars and the fact that they make you butcher a locomotive pilot to get one in there! It has not helped that they were the only automatic coupler show in town for most of those 50 years.

As to your plastic shim idea. Yeah sure why not. except... The 714 coupler box is made of an engineering plastic. Celcon I think. These plastics resist cements and glues. So what would you glut it with? It's said that Dr. Mike's has a version of CA that will glue to Delrin. This might include Celcon. But, I have no experience with their products. It would probably be far easier to glue the shim to the bottom of the coupler shank. Or shim it with washers like I said before. 

So the quest for HOn3 coupler nirvana goes on. I Just happen to like to experiment and hopefully help others in the process. But, observations, actual facts and conclusions are important parts of successful experimentation.   

Dale B

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:19 AM NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:
Dale,

Re: Shank thickness/droop: Can't you just glue a strip of styrene to the coupler box or lid? I'm not concerned abput losing the automatic centering, which is unprototyipical anyway, as m pluch as the droop and causing coupler height issues.
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ


NarrowMinded1
 

Hi Dale,

I have BS, Rail Line, C&BT, and E&B Valley/MRGS equipment and a couple brass pieces and, AFAIK, they all have cast on, not Kadee, coupler boxes or, in the case of brass; none at all. I purchased 3 packs of the #705's and plan to experiment with them upon their arrival. I will post the results here. What size washer did you use to correct the coupler droop?
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ

Climax@...
 

I use the blue Viag-RA size to correct the coupler droop myself.

-----Original Message-----
From: NarrowMinded1
Sent: Jul 21, 2019 10:35 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] KADEE 705 couplers WAS_Any narrow gauge news from the NMRA National Convention

Hi Dale,

I have BS, Rail Line, C&BT, and E&B Valley/MRGS equipment and a couple brass pieces and, AFAIK, they all have cast on, not Kadee, coupler boxes or, in the case of brass; none at all. I purchased 3 packs of the #705's and plan to experiment with them upon their arrival. I will post the results here. What size washer did you use to correct the coupler droop?
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ

Mike Van Hove
 

Sounds like the right cure, to me.

Mike Van Hove

On Jul 21, 2019, at 11:56 AM, Climax@... wrote:

I use the blue Viag-RA size to correct the coupler droop myself.

-----Original Message-----
From: NarrowMinded1
Sent: Jul 21, 2019 10:35 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] KADEE 705 couplers WAS_Any narrow gauge news from the NMRA National Convention

Hi Dale,

I have BS, Rail Line, C&BT, and E&B Valley/MRGS equipment and a couple brass pieces and, AFAIK, they all have cast on, not Kadee, coupler boxes or, in the case of brass; none at all. I purchased 3 packs of the #705's and plan to experiment with them upon their arrival. I will post the results here. What size washer did you use to correct the coupler droop?
--
Nathan Kline
Tiadaghton Valley Railroad & Coal Co.
McConnellsburg, PA
--------------------------------------------------
Web: https://www.tiadaghtonvalleyrr.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TiadaghtonValleyRailroad/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVJMoICFWw9Muse6xm8moiQ

kevin b
 


I use the blue Viag-RA size to correct the coupler droop myself.


you know there is a home brew version of that. miracle grow and fix a flat......