Topics

K-36 and K-37

Earl Knoob
 

The Brown Book shows the PFM K-37 coming out in 1960.  PFM's first attempt at D&RGW HOn3 was the K-28.  the first run came out in 1954, continuing through 1956.  I bought one of these as a collector's item for real cheap back in 1980's.  I has a Lindsay motor in it.  Most detail parts are turnings.  Pretty crude but state of the art in 1956.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 9:02 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] K-36 and K-37
 
I think that is correct

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 20:48 Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:
My mistake on the engine. After further review the fabricated injector, open frame motor and unique rear frame makes it an early PFM K37. Some consider it 'rare'. Not $650 rare in my mind.

Wasn't this one of the first Hon3 rod engines imported from Japan.

Dusty Burman

Dusty
 

As I recall some of those early hon3 engines had unplated solid brass drivers.

Dusty 

Dale Buxton
 

I've seen an early PFM K-28 and can confirm that the one I saw had solid, un-plated drivers, But even the early 70's PFM K-28 that I once owned had solid drivers. I remember that when the Westside "Coreless Powered" K-28's came out. One of the big advertising points was that they had spoked drivers.

Dale

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 10:17 PM Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:
As I recall some of those early hon3 engines had unplated solid brass drivers.

Dusty 

Mick Moignard
 

I have one of those early K-28s. I think mine is early 60s. Mixture of castings and turnings for detail, some good, some a great deal less than good.  Ran ok, but it got remotored, retailed, new cab interior and a whole pile of TLC to make what I thought then was an acceptable 478, tho still with solid drivers and chequerplate running boards.  Then I saw a Westside, which just had a lot less flaws and became 476.  That old 478 is on the shelf now.  I still get it down occasionally, but only occasionally.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.

Brian Kopp
 

Mick is your early PFM K-28  from their smaller mid 50s production runs or their bigger mid-60s runs? I am curious how the WMC and PFM models stack up against each other when they were made at about the same time. They seem to have both made K-28s in the mid 60s and with near the same production quantities and estimated prices ( $350 in the 2009 Brass Guide), I am wondering if they were very different from each other in quality when made near the same time.

Speaking of the Brass Guide, and looking at K-28s for example, there is a clear trend in prices (newer is more expensive). Since this bucks the general trend with antiques.....am I to assume that model quality has improved that significantly over 50 years? From a 1956 PFM/United at $350 to an early 2000s DP/BOO-RIM at $1450? In the hands of a master modeler could a 1956 PFM/United be rebuilt to the point where it could stand side by side with the DP/BOO-RIM?

Still learning......

Brian Kopp
904-206-3453
brian@...


On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 4:14 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

I have one of those early K-28s. I think mine is early 60s. Mixture of castings and turnings for detail, some good, some a great deal less than good.  Ran ok, but it got remotored, retailed, new cab interior and a whole pile of TLC to make what I thought then was an acceptable 478, tho still with solid drivers and chequerplate running boards.  Then I saw a Westside, which just had a lot less flaws and became 476.  That old 478 is on the shelf now.  I still get it down occasionally, but only occasionally.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.

Dusty
 

Given enough time and money anything is possible. Right?

Was Dung Heep an early builder for PFM? Just kidding.

For the time they were amazing models that fueled Hon3 modelers' visions.

Dusty Burman 

Lee Gustafson
 

Does anyone remember the builder Daiyoung ( sp? ) 


-----Original Message-----
From: Dusty <dustburm@q.com>
To: HOn3 <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, May 26, 2019 11:13 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] K-36 and K-37

Given enough time and money anything is possible. Right?

Was Dung Heep an early builder for PFM? Just kidding.

For the time they were amazing models that fueled Hon3 modelers' visions.

Dusty Burman 

Ric Case
 

I think I do! 

Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On May 26, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Lee Gustafson via Groups.Io <bagustaf@...> wrote:

Does anyone remember the builder Daiyoung ( sp? ) 


-----Original Message-----
From: Dusty <dustburm@q.com>
To: HOn3 <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, May 26, 2019 11:13 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] K-36 and K-37

Given enough time and money anything is possible. Right?

Was Dung Heep an early builder for PFM? Just kidding.

For the time they were amazing models that fueled Hon3 modelers' visions.

Dusty Burman 

Dave Trimble
 

Regarding the size of the K-37, several suggested that a standard gauge clearance gauge was necessary because of the size of the standard gauge C-41 from which they was made.

Well I was able to obtain a Westside K-37 made by Nakamura. 

On my layout, I have several tunnel portals constructed using the NMRA HOn3 standards gauge. The actual portal width is 1/16” wider than the gauge and about 1” deep (before widening out within the tunnels. 

There was was no interference problem and the widest part of the locomotive was due to the cab awnings.

note: if Blackstone ever makes their K-36 AND uses the K-27 cab awnings comparable to the large one used on the K-27s, that may become me the governing HOn3 clearance.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I want the tunnel portals to be as small as practical so that they do not dominate the scene. 

Mick Moignard
 

Brian

It’s probably a mid-60 one.  There is no real comparison to the Westside, the Westside is a far better model
- spoked drivers
- finer motion rods
- better castings - and more of them
- properly done running boards, no unprototypical chequer plate
- much better drive, and while the Namiki motor isn’t up to much, it’s a 10 minute job to change it for a Mashima, at least while one can still get a Mashima.
- detailed cab interior
The Westside isn’t perfect. It’s modelled on the 1960 or early 70s locos as they were then with the power reverser and the tender coal boards.  Easy to fix tho. Personally I think the PSC 1994 MSM-made model (don’t confuse with PSC reruns of the Westside in the 80s) is the best K-28 model made. Better than the 2001 Division Point. Almost as rare but cheaper when you do find one.


Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.

Dale Buxton
 

   Daiyoung  made the NJ brass D&RGW M-67. Nice looking model but not a great runner. Quite thin brass used in the boiler.

Dale

On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 1:36 PM Lee Gustafson via Groups.Io <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Does anyone remember the builder Daiyoung ( sp? ) 


-----Original Message-----
From: Dusty <dustburm@q.com>
To: HOn3 <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, May 26, 2019 11:13 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] K-36 and K-37

Given enough time and money anything is possible. Right?

Was Dung Heep an early builder for PFM? Just kidding.

For the time they were amazing models that fueled Hon3 modelers' visions.

Dusty Burman 

Brian Kopp
 

Thanks Mick (and Dale and everyone else too) for the insights on details of the brass locos. There is so much to learn, but that is the fun of it for me. I only have one K-28, a PFM I bought in 1999 at Peach Creek Shops in Maryland for $425 (too much back in 1999?). But I would like to buy another one or two and be a smarter buyer this time.....

here is a picture of the PFM K-28


Brian Kopp
904-206-3453
brian@...


On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 3:04 AM Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

Brian

It’s probably a mid-60 one.  There is no real comparison to the Westside, the Westside is a far better model
- spoked drivers
- finer motion rods
- better castings - and more of them
- properly done running boards, no unprototypical chequer plate
- much better drive, and while the Namiki motor isn’t up to much, it’s a 10 minute job to change it for a Mashima, at least while one can still get a Mashima.
- detailed cab interior
The Westside isn’t perfect. It’s modelled on the 1960 or early 70s locos as they were then with the power reverser and the tender coal boards.  Easy to fix tho. Personally I think the PSC 1994 MSM-made model (don’t confuse with PSC reruns of the Westside in the 80s) is the best K-28 model made. Better than the 2001 Division Point. Almost as rare but cheaper when you do find one.


Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.

Jim Spencer
 

Mick, I happen to own both a 1994 PSC K-28 and a couple of the Westside K-28s.  While I agree that the detail on the PSC is much greater (brake shoes, for instance), I think the Westside is little more proportionately correct.  I located a folio sheet on the K-28s (from John Norwood's "Rio Grande Narrow Gauge"). 
The overall boiler diameter is supposed to be 64 3/4".  Measuring both models with a caliper is quite difficult in terms of missing the handrails, etc.  But the Westside appears to be about 69" and the PSC about 67" - both too large - though the PSC wins on that account. 
The more important dimension is the overall height of the boiler.  Extrapolating the folio sheet shows 9.2' off the top of the rails.  Again, both models much are too tall.  The Westside wins on that account by being around 9.9' where the PSC is right at about 10'.
I don't have a Division Point K-28, but my understanding when this model came out was that it was the first K-28 model to get the overall height and boiler diameter correct. (Maybe someone else who has one can confirm that).
Another important thing that hasn't been brought up is the cab corners.  All the newer models mentioned above have the correct rounded corners.  The older PFMs don't and appear to be fabricated out of separate flat pieces and soldered at 90º.

Jim Spencer
 

Though this is an HOn3 site, since it was brought up, here is what I know about these NJ Brass M-67/78 models: 

They have two serious discrepancies:  1) the cylinders are too short, and 2) the tender is too tall and too short. 

On the tender, I wonder whether the builder went out and accidentally measured an M-75 tender that is taller and shorter.  Some were still on the railroad during the late 1970s and used for various MOW purposes.  When Berlyn came out with their versions, they actually offered correct tenders separately in order to correct the NJ Brass problem. .....but then the Berlyns had their own serious problems with an incorrect pilot, grossly oversized main rods, and overly large number boards - all correctable.  Interestingly the M-67/78 4-8-2s were among the most numerous standard gauge D&RGW locomotives, yet they have never been done correctly. 

Again, not narrow gauge.

Earl Knoob
 

Remember, when looking at a folio and comparing it to a model,  the boiler diameter in the folio is the diameter of the pressure vessel.  To that is added the boiler lagging (insulation) and the jacket.  That easily adds 3-4+" to the diameter of the boiler.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 11:24 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] K-36 and K-37
 
Mick, I happen to own both a 1994 PSC K-28 and a couple of the Westside K-28s.  While I agree that the detail on the PSC is much greater (brake shoes, for instance), I think the Westside is little more proportionately correct.  I located a folio sheet on the K-28s (from John Norwood's "Rio Grande Narrow Gauge"). 
The overall boiler diameter is supposed to be 64 3/4".  Measuring both models with a caliper is quite difficult in terms of missing the handrails, etc.  But the Westside appears to be about 69" and the PSC about 67" - both too large - though the PSC wins on that account. 
The more important dimension is the overall height of the boiler.  Extrapolating the folio sheet shows 9.2' off the top of the rails.  Again, both models much are too tall.  The Westside wins on that account by being around 9.9' where the PSC is right at about 10'.
I don't have a Division Point K-28, but my understanding when this model came out was that it was the first K-28 model to get the overall height and boiler diameter correct. (Maybe someone else who has one can confirm that).
Another important thing that hasn't been brought up is the cab corners.  All the newer models mentioned above have the correct rounded corners.  The older PFMs don't and appear to be fabricated out of separate flat pieces and soldered at 90º.

Jim Spencer
 

I’ll go back and check. But my recollection of the folio sheet is it showed the boiler plus the lagging.