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Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Stephen Silver
 

John,  I tested a 4% grade with both of my Blackstone K27s.  Both pulled six unweighted BS cars (a mix of 6 different cars) and a caboose but only under some heavy throttle. Double heading they pulled 10.  I don't have a 4% grade but something much closer to 3% on one section of track.  We will see what happens in reality when it gets built.

Life is mostly attitude and timing


----- Forwarded Message -----

From: John Cytron <rgsjohnny@...>
To: "HOn3@groups.io" <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019, 4:21:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

I think you all have figured this incorrectly. Bob asked for the final elevation.

If the plan is ½” to the foot, then 8 inches on the plan is 16 actual feet. Think of each 1% grade as equal to 1/8th inch per foot in the real world.  (⅛” = 1/96th of a foot or slightly  more than 1%.) A 1% grade would rise 1/8th inch over 1 foot and 16 times that over 16 feet, or a rise of 16x1/8th which is 2 inches. Over 16 actual feet, the rise would be 16 times 1/8th or 2 inches. 

The calculations made by the earlier posters is correct to the scale of the drawing; that is, 0.32 inches.  So what is 0.32 inches to 0.50 inches, the scale of the drawing?. It is  0.32/0.50 or about 0.64. 0.64 is almost ⅔ and what is 2/3rds of a foot? —8 inches.  More precisely it is 0.64 times 12 inches per foot or 7.68 inches in the real world, that is, if the ½” to the foot plan were at full scale.

I still like to figure 1/8th rise in 1 foot as equal to 1%. It makes for easy figuring.

Anyway, why would you want a 4% grade as that is really rare even in narrow gauge (except for a few places like Baxter Pass on the Uintah RR and some others.Today's HOn3 locos could barely make that grade with 2 cars and a caboose.

John

Dale Buxton
 

To John Cytron,

The south side of the Baxter Pass assent was actually 7.5% not 4%. True, long ruling grades of 4% were not the norm. But, here in Colorado, they were all over the place. 9 miles of the accent to east side of Dallas Divide on the RGS were a steady 4%. Almost all of the RGS grade on the Enterprise Branch was 5% or better.  The Crystal River Coalbasin branch had about half of its 12 miles on a 4.4% grade. Several of the Branches of the DB&W exceeded 4% for several miles as did the Argentine Central and lets not forget the "Three Little Lines" out of Silverton. They all  had stretches of 4% too! And on all of these lines, these steep grades made for made for operating hardships. To duplicate these grades In HOn3 means the cars must have super-free-rolling trucks and less than NMRA recommended car weights. HOn3 locomotives just don't have the scaled down mass on their drivers which translates into the tractive effort that their full sized counterparts had.

D Buxton


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:29 PM Stephen Silver via Groups.Io <ssilver996=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
John,  I tested a 4% grade with both of my Blackstone K27s.  Both pulled six unweighted BS cars (a mix of 6 different cars) and a caboose but only under some heavy throttle. Double heading they pulled 10.  I don't have a 4% grade but something much closer to 3% on one section of track.  We will see what happens in reality when it gets built.

Life is mostly attitude and timing


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: John Cytron <rgsjohnny@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019, 4:21:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

I think you all have figured this incorrectly. Bob asked for the final elevation.

If the plan is ½” to the foot, then 8 inches on the plan is 16 actual feet. Think of each 1% grade as equal to 1/8th inch per foot in the real world.  (⅛” = 1/96th of a foot or slightly  more than 1%.) A 1% grade would rise 1/8th inch over 1 foot and 16 times that over 16 feet, or a rise of 16x1/8th which is 2 inches. Over 16 actual feet, the rise would be 16 times 1/8th or 2 inches. 

The calculations made by the earlier posters is correct to the scale of the drawing; that is, 0.32 inches.  So what is 0.32 inches to 0.50 inches, the scale of the drawing?. It is  0.32/0.50 or about 0.64. 0.64 is almost ⅔ and what is 2/3rds of a foot? —8 inches.  More precisely it is 0.64 times 12 inches per foot or 7.68 inches in the real world, that is, if the ½” to the foot plan were at full scale.

I still like to figure 1/8th rise in 1 foot as equal to 1%. It makes for easy figuring.

Anyway, why would you want a 4% grade as that is really rare even in narrow gauge (except for a few places like Baxter Pass on the Uintah RR and some others.Today's HOn3 locos could barely make that grade with 2 cars and a caboose.

John

Brian Kopp
 

Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL

Mark Rosche
 

and if you power the magnets in sequence then you would have the first HOn3 Railgun 😁👍🏻😁👍🏻

Regards,

Mark

Don‘t take life too seriously...no one gets out alive anyway....

Brian Kopp
 

Right! We will make max scale speed and then some!
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL

Russ Norris
 

One thing you could never accuse this group of is a lack of imagination. 


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:01 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/

Brian Kopp
 

Russ its art imitating life. I saw the electromagnets used at the universal studios Volcano Bay theme park in Orlando that help pull the log ride carriages "up" small segments of their water flume ride. Being an electrical engineer I initially thought it might actually scale to model railroading. Then I started thinking abut the cost and challenges and went back to drinking my Mai Tai......

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL

Russ Norris
 

I'll join you on the veranda and we can talk about the good old days while we sip our drinks and watch the sun set.  


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 7:35 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Russ its art imitating life. I saw the electromagnets used at the universal studios Volcano Bay theme park in Orlando that help pull the log ride carriages "up" small segments of their water flume ride. Being an electrical engineer I initially thought it might actually scale to model railroading. Then I started thinking abut the cost and challenges and went back to drinking my Mai Tai......

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/

asandrini
 

I built a grade checker, using scrap lumber, a 12" level and drywall screws.

3 - 12 1/4 inch long 1"x 2"s

Lay one flat and the other 2 on their sides on each side of the flat piece.

At exactly 12"" from one end, drill a pilot hole and insert a 1" drywall screw up from the flat bottom( the top shouldbe the channel side). Make sure the screw is centered between the sides. The pilot hole should be tapered enough so the flat head screws in and is flat with the bottom of the wood.

Place the checker on a level surface and place the level between the sides of the checker (so it will not fall off, sides were added later in its development because of falling).

Of you you know the grade you want or need, calculate the rise per foot and back the screw out that amount.

Setting you checker on the subroadbed. The level should remain level throughout the grade.  

I have double stacked helixes on my railroad and the checker was very valuable in keeping things consistent. 

Al





Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

Brian Kopp
 

BTW, (and seriously) if any of you know how to survey a railroad grade and live near Roaring Camp, the conductor on the Redwood Forest steam train mentioned when we were there in June that they would love someone to measure the really steep grade on one of the switchbacks. They were claiming "about 10%" and "one of the steepest grades in north America".

I suggested they talk to a local college/university that teaches surveying and offer to let the students survey the line as a senior design project. I am not sure if they have done anything on it.....
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL

Dusty
 

Back in 1984 +- I needed to set parameters and design my kidney shaped helix. I had first established a layout room foot print. My grade and passing track parameters included ten cars plus a caboose pulled by Westside or PFM k27s. I knew the 'diameter' of my 'helix'. I used a seven foot long test track and a level. I used whatever to shim up the test track to hit the max grade my test train could pull. Next I used a piece of wood with my dumb 2' level attached loosely with rubber bands. I shimmed up the level to be used to determine the rise per 2 feet. I again used my handy Public School education to calculate the curve compensation (WAG method) for the grade. Given the length of the 'helix' and the rise I needed to achieve I arrived at 2.5 percent. Of course the level laid on the curve is a shorter distance than the actual road bed so the curves are less steep than the straight sections. I laid the first lap with the level and the rest measured on the risers (to preserve any errors). I tested as I went and my 'back yard' engineering held up.

When the Blackstone K27s arrived they were a bit 'slippery' compared to the Westside engines. I can't recall the weight comparison? At the time I wondered if the wheel plating or the tread profile or the weight made the difference? 

My lame assed strategy (as usual) is to mock up and vary the variables. Go ahead, live dangerously. Spike a couple of pieces of flex track down on a 1x4, get out some equipment, run it and take measurements.

In the mean time, Later this afternoon I may go over to Apache Reclaimation to check out their stock of surplus Rail Gun components.

Dusty Burman 
The disaster.....

Russ Norris
 

Well, let's think about this.  A 10% grade simply means the rails rise 10% over a given distance, right?  So a rise of 10% over 1000 feet would be 100 feet -- pretty steep.  Multiply that by 5 and you get a rise of a little over 500 feet in a mile!  Chuffed, chuff!  


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:38 AM Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:
Back in 1984 +- I needed to set parameters and design my kidney shaped helix. I had first established a layout room foot print. My grade and passing track parameters included ten cars plus a caboose pulled by Westside or PFM k27s. I knew the 'diameter' of my 'helix'. I used a seven foot long test track and a level. I used whatever to shim up the test track to hit the max grade my test train could pull. Next I used a piece of wood with my dumb 2' level attached loosely with rubber bands. I shimmed up the level to be used to determine the rise per 2 feet. I again used my handy Public School education to calculate the curve compensation (WAG method) for the grade. Given the length of the 'helix' and the rise I needed to achieve I arrived at 2.5 percent. Of course the level laid on the curve is a shorter distance than the actual road bed so the curves are less steep than the straight sections. I laid the first lap with the level and the rest measured on the risers (to preserve any errors). I tested as I went and my 'back yard' engineering held up.

When the Blackstone K27s arrived they were a bit 'slippery' compared to the Westside engines. I can't recall the weight comparison? At the time I wondered if the wheel plating or the tread profile or the weight made the difference? 

My lame assed strategy (as usual) is to mock up and vary the variables. Go ahead, live dangerously. Spike a couple of pieces of flex track down on a 1x4, get out some equipment, run it and take measurements.

In the mean time, Later this afternoon I may go over to Apache Reclaimation to check out their stock of surplus Rail Gun components.

Dusty Burman 
The disaster.....


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/

Dale Buxton
 

Sure you could do that. Liniare electric motors are designed to do just that. All you would need is several thousand dollars for a custom built system. Interesting idea though. If anybody implements a system like this, it will probably be the Germans. They already have the operating vehicle/road system. This would just be another quantum step. 

 In another way to look at this... I have a track inspection car made out of plexiglass that I put a 1 1/2" X 7/8" X 1/8" Neodymium magnet on top of to pick up stray spikes and iron filings. Before I even started, I knew that this particular magnet was massive overkill for the designed purpose. But, it was what I had at the time. This magnet is so powerful that it is attracted to every single tini rail spike head and every screw under the track, homasote and 1/2" plywood within the field of the magnets influence! Its magnetic gauss is just that powerful! When the car is pulled by any HOn3 2-8-0, once the car passes over a screw beneath its field of influence. The poor little loco can't overcome the pull of the magnet to whatever it is being attracted to. The loco just sits and spins its wheels. LOL! I have to use a regauged HO diesel to pull it. 

What if you put a magnet like this under the layout on a secondary line that was a mirror image to the track above it? Maybe like a monorail system moving the Neodymium magnet just below the sub-roadbed. From what I've seen, it takes very little iron to attract these super-magnets. So in theory, this could be used to assist the locomotives up the garde.  

D Buxton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 5:01 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL