Topics

Evolution of the K-27


ftgcss
 

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott


Mark Lewis
 

Scott:

You might want to look into the K27 photo book produced by Tim Mulina at BHI Publications.

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.


On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 3:09 PM ftgcss <ftgc@...> wrote:
Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott


Robert Veefkind
 



In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind


waynecohen49@...
 

Look for a copy of “The Mudhens” by Dennis O’Berry too.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:55 PM Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Wayne Cohen


Doug Cummings
 

You will find it was done over a period of time and gradually as the locomotives were shopped over a period of several years
DEC



Look for a copy of “The Mudhens” by Dennis O’Berry too.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:55 PM Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Wayne Cohen


ftgcss
 

So is it safe to say that by the late 1920s most of the fleet had been converted to cylinder pistons and Walschaerts valve gear?  The reason I'm asking is that I'm thinking of changing the period of the RGS I'm modeling from 1940 to the late 1920s.  The K-27s I have all have cylinder pistons and Walschaerts valve gear (and to be honest I'm not all that crazy about the slide valve versions).

Thanks for the information and I'll look into picking up one of the books,
Scott


sydney schofield
 

Blackstone models has a believable story at:  Blackstone Models





Seb J
 

Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé


Ed Tibbetts
 

Model Railroader did a 2 part series on the K27. March and June 1973. I have it as 11 .pdf’s if you want give me your email address.
Ed T.


Earl Knoob
 

In a nutshell:

454, 456, 458, 461 received piston valve conversions in the late 1910's retaining Stephenson Valve Gear and saturated steam.  To connect with the existing valve gear, the valve chests are inboard of the cylinder centerlines.
452, 453, 455, 459, 463, 464 converted to superheat, piston valves, Walscheart Valve Gear 1925-26.
454, 456, 458, 461 converted to Walscheart Gear and superheated at same time frame.
462 converted to piston valves and Walschaert Valve Gear, but not superheated in 1930.
450, 451, 457, 460 were never converted and remained slide valve saturated steam.  All were out of service by mid-1930's except 460 which stayed active until 1938-9.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Seb J <sebastien.jubault@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 12:46 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Evolution of the K-27
 
Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Link to that thread :

Sebastien

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé


ftgcss
 

Ed,

Thanks for the offer.  You can send them to ftgc AT comcast DOT net.

Scott


ftgcss
 

Earl and Seb,

Thanks, that was just the information I was looking for.  It's amazing what a wealth of information there is here on these forums.  Thanks again all.

Scott


Mark Kasprowicz
 

Ed Knoob,

Prefect. Thanks for the precis. Priceless.

Mark K


Mark Kasprowicz
 

That was Brewster.


Jeff Reynolds
 

I believe the 460 was the only K-27 that was never converted to walschaerts valve gear. The 462 had no super heater. After contuous shopping, no two K-27's wound up having the same arrangement of parts.
jefe


Earl Knoob
 

450, 451 and 457 along with 460 were never converted to piston valves and Walschaerts Valve Gear.  They were converted to single expansion slide valves around 1908 retaining their Stephenson Valve Gear.  In the latter 1930's they were seen parted out on the Alamosa deadline.  460 was the last one in service.  462 got its running gear overhaul completed, but the boiler was never superheated.  As it was the last one through the shop in 1930 (a few years after the previous conversions), one could assume the running gear work was completed, the project was stopped and the unmodified boiler placed back on the running gear.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Jeff Reynolds <jefe4x4@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 12:55 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Evolution of the K-27
 
I believe the 460 was the only K-27 that was never converted to walschaerts valve gear. The 462 had no super heater. After contuous shopping, no two K-27's wound up having the same arrangement of parts.
jefe


John Stutz
 

Thanks for the link Sebastien

The discussion was so informative that I had to update my copy of O'Berry's "Mudhens"!

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,378057,page=1

John Stutz

On April 1, 2020 at 1:46 AM Seb J <sebastien.jubault@...> wrote:

Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Link to that thread :

Sebastien

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust= aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé

 


Mike Conder
 

SO I have a question about an earlier evolution of these locos: conversion from compound to slide valve, and when the slope-back tenders were replaced.  I thought they were coincident, but I've seen a few photos of slide valve K-27's still with slope-back tenders, but never the other way around.

Anybody know more?

Mike Conder

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:45 PM John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Thanks for the link Sebastien

The discussion was so informative that I had to update my copy of O'Berry's "Mudhens"!

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,378057,page=1

John Stutz

On April 1, 2020 at 1:46 AM Seb J <sebastien.jubault@...> wrote:

Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Link to that thread :

Sebastien

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust= aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé

 


John Stutz
 

Mike

Recapitulating:  The D&RG class 125s, later D&RGW K-27s, were built in 1903 with saturated steam boilers and Vauclain compound cylinders worked by inside Stevenson valve gear and inside piston valves.  D&RG experienced the usual problems with this combination, and began converting them to simple expansion cylinders with traditional slide valves, retaining the Stevenson gear, with conversion of 458 completed ~12/ 06 [ O'Berry p12].  O'Berry states that 456 was the last compound in 1912, and not listed as simple until 4/16.  

There were (at least) two slide valve versions, the early one retaining the Vauclan cylinder's 4-bar crosshead and guides, and a latter one with the same 2-bar crosshead used on piston valve cylinders.  The 464 still had  the 4-bar version on 6/6/23 [O'Berry p48].

As you have noted regarding tender cistern revisions, from sloped to square backed, these lagged the single expansion conversions in an unknown number of cases, perhaps all.  O'Berry's p89 shows 459 with a slope back 6/8/17.  I suspect this change waited until the old cisterns were deemed unpatchable, and required complete replacement.

The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob's AEF data book, with entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.

I find it interesting that while piston valves were tried as early a 1918, none of the K-27s received Walscharts valve gear until the K-36s arrived in 9/25, while the K-28s had been in service since 10/23.  And super heating the K-27s ran from 12/25 to 12/28, beginning only after after two years experience with the K-28's.  It looks like D&RGW had serious reservations about both the Walscharts gear and super heating.  Of course the D&RG was pretty near flat broke in this time frame, so that could account for the delays, since super heating requires replacing both tube sheets, a major alteration.  

In this table  PV denotes piston valve cylinders, and WG denotes Walscharts outside valve gear.   The notation "pv 1918+" denotes early undated installation of inboard piston valve cylinders for use with Stevenson inside valve gear, per a drawing dated 1918. 

engine    simpled       PV&WG     superheated

450      12/08-9/09    ----------------------------

451        9/09-1/12    ----------------------------

452      12/08-9/09    11/30/25    <    6/27/28

453        9/09-1/12      9/30/26    =    9/30/26

454        9/09-1/12    pv 1918+        12/31/28

455      12/08-9/09    12/31/25    =   12/31/25

456         by  4/16       pv 1918+       12/31/28

457             ?           ------------------------------

458          12/06         pv 1918+         9/30/27

459       9/09-1/12      8/15/27     =    8/15/27

460       9/09-1/12     -----------------------------

461     12/08-9/09     pv 1918+         2/28/27

462       9/09-1/12      8/31/29          ----------

463     12/08-9/09      6/30/27     =    6/30/27

464       9/09-1/12      9/30/25     <    6/27/28


Then there is the air pump conversions, from one to two single phase pumps, then to the cross compound pumps,  And the not necessarily simultaneous shift from an air tank under cab plus a tank on tender, to twin tanks under raised running boards.  See O'Berry's photos of 460, for cross compound pump plus tender mounted tank version.  And then there is 463 on 6/6/23 with slide valves, twin pumps, a tank under the left running board, and one on the tender. O'Berry has some dates for doubling the pumps.

John Stutz


Bill Lugg
 

I'm not a D&RG guy so bear with me...

You mention the recommendation by Mr' Hess to replace scrapped locomotives with OF 2-6-6-2s.  Was this recommendation followed?  I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of one of these beasts.

Thanks
Bill Lugg


On 4/2/20 2:27 AM, John Stutz wrote:
...
The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob <https://sitemailxchange.gate.com/appsuite/ui#>'s AEF data book, with entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.
...