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coreless motors again plus C-18 tender origin


Lawrence Wisniewski
 

I spent some time this morning trying to figure out this musical chairs game involving tenders on 318, 340, and 346.  I used on line sources mostly, confirming some stuff via Grandt's motive power books.  Sources of model photos included Google image searches and the Brasstrains.com collection.  Other photo's from Brass Trains past sales can be accessed via links on the Goggle image search results.  Thanks to the efforts of  Dale Buxton,  the use of 340's  tender on 318 in the very early 1950's was confirmed via Steve Swanson and I ran accross a photo dated 1950 that confirmed it as well.  So that piece of info is secure.  Now, what exactly happened when Key did thier first run 318?  I had heard that story of the misidentification at the Colorado museum before, and photos of the 346  release do suggest that the 318's tender was behind that engine.    However, all the photos of the 318 release that have the obvious C-19 tender show a straight sided tender body with steel sheet continued upwards around the coal bunker ala 340.  346's tender, on the other hand, shows a flanged top edge along the entire side length with no metal continuation around the coal bunker.  There are also a couple of apparent right angles in the tender profile that also suggest 340.  I couldn't find any early Colorado Railroad Museum photos that established what was on 318 when it was purchased by the museum.  Since it spent a lot of time in pieces outside, those photos may take some real work to uncover.  However, I did run across one photo of the recent cosmetic rebuild and the tender sides still have the 340 like profile.  I didn't run into any photos showing the tender present at Knot's Berry Farm and I don't know much about how they have dealt with their two C-19's over the years.  Maybe if anyone has those photos they could let us know what they show.  In conclusion, it appears to me that 340's tender was probably on the first 318 Key released and perhaps reflects plans drawn from it's 1950 configuration.  The 346 release probably has the 318 tender following the museum swap.  Both stories concerning the origin of the Great Tender Swap have true elements, but neither is the complete truth.  Maybe someone else might have information that would further our understanding. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, May 15, 2020 12:22 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

You may be right and probably are.  I stayed away from those early Key engines because it looked like they had used little kids to do the soldering on them and so on.  I need to refresh my memory and look at some old photos again.  The story about the 318 derailment problem and how it was solved does exist, but I really can't recall whether it was Norwood or Richardson that authored it.  It was part of some article or chapter written on Ouray branch lore.  Off the top of my head, Grandt's volumes on motive power do contain late Ouray branch photos of the 318 with a C-19 tender on it.  Well, another excuse to let the lawn mowing go for another day..  


-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard <mick@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Fri, May 15, 2020 6:25 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Lawrence

I think the Key tender screwup was 318/346, not 318/340. The story I heard was that the Key team turned up at the CRRM to measure the locos one day, but on the previous steaming of 346 the tender leaked, so  they'd swapped tenders with 318, and the measuring team never noticed.  So the two models were made each with the other tender - that was for the first runs, the one where the only C-18 they did was the 318, rigid frame and with the 346 tender.  One of those was the first brass loco I bought, way back in about 1978 when they first appeared. I still have it, but in deference mostly to its poor running, and that tender, it's on the shelf and likely to stay there.

Mick
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Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited


Dale Buxton
 

So La Messena's book "Rio Grande to the Pacific" shows the 340 in Montrose in 1951 with the tender it now has at Knotts Berry Farm (page173). The "315" book shows this same tender behind the 318 in 1953 on the last run to Ouray (page 420).  

So are we possibly suggesting that because the 318 ended it's service with the 340's tender behind it. That perhaps Dan Mc Key chose to model the 318 with the 340's tender? Or, are there tw0 tenders like this?

Steve has told me that there are more tenders that look like 340's last tender. There have to be at least two. Because the same tender can't be behind the 318 in Golden and the 340 in Pasadena at the same time.

I just remembered something else. While in service with the New Mexico Lumber Co. The 346 was hauling around the 271's tender for a spell.

D. Buxton


Lawrence Wisniewski
 

Oh my, what a tangled web we weave.  Here below is a summary of my reactions.

1. It's been approximately 44 years since these two loco's have seen the light of day in HO scale and who knows how many tender swaps have occurred by those (mis)fortuate enough to own both at the same time. I imagine many of these locos have changed hands many times given their quality.   I wouldn't be surprised if the Balboa C-19 was a transplant donor here and there.  I can't recall any photographic advertisements Key released on these two back then.  Just those line drawings.  Is there any way to secure the true appearance of these guys when they were first released?  (This response is just a too transparent attempt on my part to get out of any more research because I know relevant photos are somewhere up in my library.  However, it's three flights up and gravity is no longer a friend,)

2.  Maybe it's time to get out my bag of 'medicinal',roll a j and head out back to discuss this matter with my Gray Squirrel confidants as the weather is far more conductive to  play rather than work.  Hum.  Tempting.

3.  Muttering dark curses on General Palmer for burdening us with the mysteries of his little railroad has never worked for me in the past.  Besides, I'm not far from his eventual destination, and he might not be very forgiving should we happen to run into each other. 
 
4.  Perhaps I should return to the rules, standards, and customs applicable to honest scholarship that I learned, preached, and actually practiced back in the days of maintaining a paycheck driven lifestyle.  Use it or lose it, buba.  Serves me right.

5. Then there was that really nice E-mail earlier complementing us on our dedication and knowledge.  Shame on me.  Damn, I guess I'll head on up and see what I can find..  First stop is RG to the Pacific. Always loved those early standard gauge photos anyway.  I'll let you all know if I find anymore useful stuff.  Thinking face


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 16, 2020 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again plus C-18 tender origin

So La Messena's book "Rio Grande to the Pacific" shows the 340 in Montrose in 1951 with the tender it now has at Knotts Berry Farm (page173). The "315" book shows this same tender behind the 318 in 1953 on the last run to Ouray (page 420).  

So are we possibly suggesting that because the 318 ended it's service with the 340's tender behind it. That perhaps Dan Mc Key chose to model the 318 with the 340's tender? Or, are there tw0 tenders like this?

Steve has told me that there are more tenders that look like 340's last tender. There have to be at least two. Because the same tender can't be behind the 318 in Golden and the 340 in Pasadena at the same time.

I just remembered something else. While in service with the New Mexico Lumber Co. The 346 was hauling around the 271's tender for a spell.

D. Buxton


tonyk537
 

From information collected from Steve Swanson and Jeff Johnson. 

345 tender currently at CRRM behind 318

 

Wide winged tender no beading on wing.  In Hon3 Key used their version of this tender on a run of the  #318s and on their #346

 

Loco 345  1934-Aug 1940  On the C&S with this tender

Loco 340   Late 1940-late 1950

Loco 318   late 1950 – present.   More water cpy for Ouray run. Was behind the 318 when it was at the museum in Alamosa  and went to Golden with it. Used behind 346 at museum in the 50s when the 346 tender was being repaired.

 

 

316 tender  Currently behind RGS 42 in Durango

 

Taller flare top tender.  Key did a horrible job of modeling this tender on their Hon3

C-17.

 

Loco 316 early 1930’s – May 1939

Loco 315 May 1939 – approx March 1941  Appears to have been overhauled

Loco 317 1941 -1948  Had the small flying RG on it approx July 1941 – April 1946

Loco 42  1949   Pictured behind 42 with flying RG

 

318 Tender  Currently behind 340 at Knotts

 

Flare top tender with mismatched trucks.  Very similar to #223s tender and the tender used on RGS 42 most of her life.  Key made a beautiful version of this tender on the late version of the 318 with the small box.

 

Loco 318  until late 1950

Loco 340   late 1950 - present.  340 not used on RG with this tender, just stored.

 

346 tender  currently behind #346 at the CRRM

 

Larger flared tender.  Key put it behind runs of the #318 and behind their #40.

 

Shows evidence of wreck like square stock beading instead of 1/2 round. 


tonyk537
 

Wow!  Copy pasted that.  Sorry it was such big print.

Tony Kassin


Lawrence Wisniewski
 

Dale: When the smoke from this thread finally clears, what emerges is the following: 

Tenders were swapped between 318 and 340 in mid 1950 at Montrose.  These tenders then followed their new locomotives to their future homes, the 340 to Knotts in CA and the 318 to the CRRM in Golden.  The original Key issue of 318 was accurate for the post 1950 period. Most models of 340 in HOn3 and Sn3 carry the pre 1950 tender that actually was traced back to 345 in the mid 30's and was assigned to loco 340 in 1940 according to Swanson.  C&S photos of the 345 wearing a beartrap clearly show this tender .
As far as I can tell from photos at my disposal, the 346 kept it's tender through out it's service on the C&S, D&RGW, the lumber road out of Dolores (with the temporary switch with 271 as noted) , and most of the time at the CRRM.  There were some temporary switches with the former 340 now 318 tender at the CRRM. I am not sure exactly what tender was behind the 346 when Key released it back in the 70's.  I've seen photos of two and possibly three different tenders, all described as releases from Key, not previous owner generated swaps.  While the history of the various HOn3 models will always be somewhat murky, the data is available for a pretty secure chronology of what the prototype did.  Which model is accurate depends on the time period you are modeling.  By the way, Knotts is located down Orange County way not in Pasadena.  Bob Richardson's written comments on the Montrose switch can be found in his Rio Grande: Chasing the Narrow Gauge, Vol.II p.193.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 16, 2020 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again plus C-18 tender origin

So La Messena's book "Rio Grande to the Pacific" shows the 340 in Montrose in 1951 with the tender it now has at Knotts Berry Farm (page173). The "315" book shows this same tender behind the 318 in 1953 on the last run to Ouray (page 420).  

So are we possibly suggesting that because the 318 ended it's service with the 340's tender behind it. That perhaps Dan Mc Key chose to model the 318 with the 340's tender? Or, are there tw0 tenders like this?

Steve has told me that there are more tenders that look like 340's last tender. There have to be at least two. Because the same tender can't be behind the 318 in Golden and the 340 in Pasadena at the same time.

I just remembered something else. While in service with the New Mexico Lumber Co. The 346 was hauling around the 271's tender for a spell.

D. Buxton


Lawrence Wisniewski
 

It took me a while to make sense out of this list until I realized that the tender most often associated with 340 actually traveled behind 345 in the 30's.  I rarely look that closely at tenders, and after spending the last few years modeling C&S equipment, never noticed what was behind the 345.  Duh.  Anyhow, your new data now pretty much solves the protoype origin of tender promiscuity among these C class locos.  
Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: tonyk537 via groups.io <Tonyk375@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 17, 2020 1:03 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again plus C-18 tender origin

From information collected from Steve Swanson and Jeff Johnson. 

345 tender currently at CRRM behind 318
 
Wide winged tender no beading on wing.  In Hon3 Key used their version of this tender on a run of the  #318s and on their #346
 
Loco 345  1934-Aug 1940  On the C&S with this tender
Loco 340   Late 1940-late 1950
Loco 318   late 1950 – present.   More water cpy for Ouray run. Was behind the 318 when it was at the museum in Alamosa  and went to Golden with it. Used behind 346 at museum in the 50s when the 346 tender was being repaired.
 
 
316 tender  Currently behind RGS 42 in Durango
 
Taller flare top tender.  Key did a horrible job of modeling this tender on their Hon3
C-17.
 
Loco 316 early 1930’s – May 1939
Loco 315 May 1939 – approx March 1941  Appears to have been overhauled
Loco 317 1941 -1948  Had the small flying RG on it approx July 1941 – April 1946
Loco 42  1949   Pictured behind 42 with flying RG
 
318 Tender  Currently behind 340 at Knotts
 
Flare top tender with mismatched trucks.  Very similar to #223s tender and the tender used on RGS 42 most of her life.  Key made a beautiful version of this tender on the late version of the 318 with the small box.
 
Loco 318  until late 1950
Loco 340   late 1950 - present.  340 not used on RG with this tender, just stored.
 
346 tender  currently behind #346 at the CRRM
 
Larger flared tender.  Key put it behind runs of the #318 and behind their #40.
 
Shows evidence of wreck like square stock beading instead of 1/2 round.