Topics

coreless motors again


Robert Veefkind
 

This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind


Dale Buxton
 

Bob,

Let me start by saying that I have the greatest of respect for your talents. You are without a doubt in my book the Kemtron C-16 kit building champion.

So are you the first and only owner o this K-27? If not do you think it might have been abused?
If the answer to both questions is no not. I think it is safe to say you have a motor with a bad coil winding segment. Just enough of one to drive DCC insane.

The Real answer to your question is not an easy or short one. So I apologize if I seem to run on and on.

Second, I'm not an electrical engineer. But I had all of this explained to me by several a model railroaders that were.

Micro/Bell armature motors, because of their design have an extremely low coefficient of drag and a extremely efficient use of Electro-magnetic force. The can run on voltages so low that a 1.5 volt lamp in series with one will not even illuminate but the motor will be turning!

So the PFM 1977 K-27 did not come with a micro or bell armature motor. It came with 16mm diameter Japanese made can motor, and a pretty good one at that. I have ten or so of theses models so I am 100% sure of my statement here. That being said, it is an imperfect world and every once in a while, a lemon gets into production. In this case your diagnosis sounds like a bad segment in one of the winding coils of the motor. I've seen this before. Not often mind you but, it can happen.  I too have seen defective can motors that would run on DC but not DCC. This is why I now bench-test my motors with their decoders and stress-test them before I put them in the models. I love ESU's little "Decoder Testor" for this!

It also sounds like the thermal sensor in the decoders were overheating while trying to protect the decoder but, finally gave up and died. The earlier thermal protection sensors in decoders of just a few years ago are not as sophisticated as the ones being produced in today's decoders. Continuing to operate a motor with a defective coil winding (even if it is a marginal defect) on DCC will eventually destroy the motor on top of just destroying decoders. This is because of the way DCC current is introduced into the motor from the decoder.

DCC from the very begging embraced "Carrier Wave Technology". In the last twenty years DCC has refined its carrier wave to include cleaner pulse wave modulation and an item called "Back EMF". Back EMF was from the very beginning developed for instrument motor control, i.e. micro-motors or more appropriately "Bell Armature Motors". However, it was quickly found that ALL kinds of motors small and large could benefit from Back EMF for a host of control features.

Before you even get to the motor in DCC systems you have the carrier wave going down the rails. Which on an O-scope looks like a bunch of square ended peaks and valleys. At the end of each peak and valley there is a pulse spike. It can't be avoided. There is just no such thing as a truly perfectly square carrier wave. These waves spikes are kind of hard on the fine magnet wire in the conventional motor windings that are used in our model train motors all by themselves. But, there is a way to filter these waves before they get to the motor

If you ever played around with the old PFM sound systems. PFM sound was a carrier wave system for sound. The Engine Tender Modules had a thing called an RF-Trap and pair of back to back capacitors with a bridge rectifier. These items in conjunction to each other filtered the carrier sound wave to the speaker and protected the motor windings. The motor windings kind of mimicked a voice coil of a speaker. If you put your ear real close to the motor windings (open frame or can) and hit the whistle lever. You could faintly hear the whistle sound reverberating in the motor windings. The RF-Trap was used to eliminate this effect and protect the motor coils from the pulse wave spikes.

When PFM Sound users started using micro-motors in a PFM sound system. It was discovered that the bell armatures amplified the sound across the bell coils simple because its shape was even more like that of the voice coil of a speaker! Another type of filter to stop this and protect the motor needed to be created. A solid state electronic version.

On early DCC systems, the information carrier wave could be heard buzzing across the coils of finer can motors and micro-motors. What was not talked about was that the pulse spikes in that carrier wave could still hurt these motors. Since these high-end motors were made in Germany and Switzerland, Märklin and ESU also German companies, got right on the problem to incorporate solid state electronics to eliminate the noisy motor syndrome and protect the delicate motor winding s of the instrument motors. All the other decoder manufacturers quickly followed suit. ESU also has a thermal sensor in there connected to an electronic circuit breaker that will only re-engage after the unit has cooled down enough to operate safely.
Sometimes the cool-down cycle can take10 or so minutes. In the mean time your are thinking that you have burned out your decoder!

I hope this helped.

D. Buxton

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:03 PM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind


Robert Veefkind
 



In a message dated 5/9/2020 7:10:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, dbtuathaddana@... writes:

you can usually tell if a model has been abused if the screws are "dished" out and this one did not-that said the valve gear hanger was offset and the valve gears hung up, but that has happened to me before and did not harm the decoder. I think the problem I have is getting too casual and not double checking every thing like before.
I printed out your mail and will try to digest some of it.
Thank you very much and lots of good stuff there. You should keep a copy of your email as you will probably get this question again. I do have a Sagami 1630 saved and I know this is a fine motor for dc and dcc      again thanks   Bob V.

So are you the first and only owner o this K-27? If not do you think it might have been abused?
If the answer to both questions is no not. I think it is safe to say you have a motor with a bad coil winding segment. Just enough of one to drive DCC insane.

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:03 PM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind

 



Mark Kasprowicz
 

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


asandrini
 

If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Dale Buxton
 

You're right Mark.

Some of those Sagami's did have clogging problems. Especially in the 10, 12 and 14mm versions! But, that was mostly after they changed the design from the original concept of the magnets. The original design had one piece magnet tube around around the armature.  These were high quality ALNICO magnets. The magnetic gauss field completely surrounded the armature windings. This is why these motors were so efficient as drives for 35mm camera speed winders. Then Sahami changed to a pair of magnets to create the magnetic field and the clogging issues started to show up at low speeds. I think the field separation between the two magnets was too great. My old AFX slot cars had the same problem. 

Anyway, at the same time Sagami stopped using  a machined aluminum casings and went to a stamped metal ones. The tolerances weren't as tight anymore. To get around the clogging effect (that I think they created by economising the manufacturing process). They stated skewing the windings.  

I don't remember when Sagami started to skew the armature frames but it seems to me it was around 1977 to 80. I only ever found a few can motors with machined aluminum casings and skewed armatures. They were VERY NICE!!! I only bought a couple of Sagami's with the stamped metal frame tubes. The early quality just wasn't there anymore. I switched to Faulhaber micro-motors and never looked back. 

D. Buxton 

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 2:47 AM Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...> wrote:
Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Dale Buxton
 

I agree Al,

You have to ask yourself this. Why does Märklin put motors of this quality in everything they sell?  Yes, the keep the price down by an economy of scale. Why are they using high end motors?

D,Buxton


On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:37 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Climax@...
 

Where are Faulharbor motors made?  Quality production or mass production?
Mule

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton
Sent: May 10, 2020 7:59 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I agree Al,

You have to ask yourself this. Why does Märklin put motors of this quality in everything they sell?  Yes, the keep the price down by an economy of scale. Why are they using high end motors?

D,Buxton


On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:37 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

Faulhaber motors come from Europe, but I'm not sure whether it's Germany, Austria, or Switzerland.  According to Eldon the Motorman, the company uses batch production that focuses only on a minimum order number reservation approach, much like the limited run philosophy of many model RR suppliers.  They also have standing order relationships with local European manufacturers, who obviously have much better communications with them than we do over here.  They furnish motors to very high end clients as well, like areospace, who have high end budgets and contracts with them.  Their products seem to be much more obtainable by Europeans.  I'm not sure if Jack at Division Point ever uses Faulhabers.  I believe Bill Peter at PBL has on some of his runs.  The Motorman knew the system and would advise me about availability, prices, and turn around times.  He was always right.  Locodoc advertises use of Faulhabers in a lot of his kits.  He never shared any ordering info with me.  I tried repeatedly to get new motors from him, but only got a grand total of one, and eventually gave up.  The used market for Faulhabers is pretty big but difficult to navigate due to the seemingly endless variety of gearheads and electronic control devices supplied with them.  You'd really need a good working knowledge of electronics to find what you need for model railroading.  Even the basic stock motors come in a variety of voltages, shaft characteristics, and other features.  The company does whatever custom work clients want and are willing to pay for.   It's definitely a headache for us model railroaders to deal with.  But, the motor's are probably the best you can get.


-----Original Message-----
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 10, 2020 8:03 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Where are Faulharbor motors made?  Quality production or mass production?
Mule

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton
Sent: May 10, 2020 7:59 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I agree Al,

You have to ask yourself this. Why does Märklin put motors of this quality in everything they sell?  Yes, the keep the price down by an economy of scale. Why are they using high end motors?

D,Buxton


On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:37 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

Also the Faulhaber msytique has lots of appeal, snob and otherwise.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 10, 2020 7:59 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I agree Al,

You have to ask yourself this. Why does Märklin put motors of this quality in everything they sell?  Yes, the keep the price down by an economy of scale. Why are they using high end motors?

D,Buxton


On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:37 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

The  small Sagami motors were used in most of Key's small hon3 imports: for sure the RGS ten wheelers, the second run C-18's, many of the C&S engines.  All Korean stuff. Don't know about standard gauge applications.  The Key stuff was really maddening.  On the one hand, most of these engines had high quality mechanisms (once Key got the Koreans to understand what their problems were) but the little Sagami's started like slot cars.  Once past their clogging point, they could be throttled back nicely, but good scale starts were beyond their capabilities.  Faulhaber 1319's can be fitted into these locomotives as replacements and the resulting improvement is absolutely breath taking.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 10, 2020 7:47 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

You're right Mark.

Some of those Sagami's did have clogging problems. Especially in the 10, 12 and 14mm versions! But, that was mostly after they changed the design from the original concept of the magnets. The original design had one piece magnet tube around around the armature.  These were high quality ALNICO magnets. The magnetic gauss field completely surrounded the armature windings. This is why these motors were so efficient as drives for 35mm camera speed winders. Then Sahami changed to a pair of magnets to create the magnetic field and the clogging issues started to show up at low speeds. I think the field separation between the two magnets was too great. My old AFX slot cars had the same problem. 

Anyway, at the same time Sagami stopped using  a machined aluminum casings and went to a stamped metal ones. The tolerances weren't as tight anymore. To get around the clogging effect (that I think they created by economising the manufacturing process). They stated skewing the windings.  

I don't remember when Sagami started to skew the armature frames but it seems to me it was around 1977 to 80. I only ever found a few can motors with machined aluminum casings and skewed armatures. They were VERY NICE!!! I only bought a couple of Sagami's with the stamped metal frame tubes. The early quality just wasn't there anymore. I switched to Faulhaber micro-motors and never looked back. 

D. Buxton 

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 2:47 AM Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...> wrote:
Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

I second the comments on small Machimas .  Very good motors.  Don,t know if they have Faulhaber longjivity or not.   I did run into a few that weren't so good in 1980,s PBL imports..  I've never found a bad Faulhaber.  


-----Original Message-----
From: asandrini <asandrini@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 10, 2020 7:36 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


asandrini
 

Germany.




Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Climax@...
Date: 5/10/20 5:03 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Where are Faulharbor motors made?  Quality production or mass production?
Mule

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton
Sent: May 10, 2020 7:59 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I agree Al,

You have to ask yourself this. Why does Märklin put motors of this quality in everything they sell?  Yes, the keep the price down by an economy of scale. Why are they using high end motors?

D,Buxton


On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 5:37 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
If you want slow speeds and money is not a problem, nothing is better that a Faulharbor motor with a 4:1 gearhead.  I have them in my HOn30 brass 0-4-0's.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
Date: 5/10/20 1:47 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Those Sagamis were not as good as they were cracked up to be mainly because they were very 'coggie' which shows up at low speeds. If you can get hold of a suitable Mashima that would be better and of course there are the Chinese six pole cubes that appear on ebay for about $2-3. They are good at low speed, have good torque and run smooth. They come in 12, 15 and 18 mm versions. Ex car wing mirror motors.

Mark K


 

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy

 


Robert Veefkind
 

Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Climax@...
 

Gremlins found!

-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert Veefkind via groups.io"
Sent: May 11, 2020 1:37 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Dale Buxton
 

Bob,

Well, that would do it!

This is a coincidence of timing. Saturday I did and TCS WOW sound install on a Colorado Midland 300 class 2-8-0. Long ago I had put whimpy springs under the wheel bearings. I wanted the model to equalize and travel better. Then I put the project away. Now 30+ years later I've returned to the project. I'm trying to make a D&RG C-39 or C-41 class 2-8-0. So, I had cut the bronze coil springs I used about in half. Well, the springs under the rear drivers were in there so loose that the drivers traveled too far up and the insides of the driver flanges were rubbing on the bottom of the sloped part of the firebox next to the frame. The insulated driver was intermittently shorting out when it touched the bottom of the firebox. Fortunately, I found this out before I put the decoder in! I too put my model in a foam cradle and found that one of the springs had disappeared. I replaced springs on this driver set with stiffer steel versions and the upwards travel problem and short went away.

I as well have experienced the joys of driver springs popping out while working on the drive train of a PFM K-27.

D. Buxton 


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:38 AM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Ric Case
 

Gents I have found with the light copper spring you can loose the springs to vaporization. Short period of high current draw can melt the springs! 
I have two or three locos that have lost more than half their springs over the years.
I usually replace them with steel springs cut down to fit!
Just info to think about.

Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On May 11, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:


Bob,

Well, that would do it!

This is a coincidence of timing. Saturday I did and TCS WOW sound install on a Colorado Midland 300 class 2-8-0. Long ago I had put whimpy springs under the wheel bearings. I wanted the model to equalize and travel better. Then I put the project away. Now 30+ years later I've returned to the project. I'm trying to make a D&RG C-39 or C-41 class 2-8-0. So, I had cut the bronze coil springs I used about in half. Well, the springs under the rear drivers were in there so loose that the drivers traveled too far up and the insides of the driver flanges were rubbing on the bottom of the sloped part of the firebox next to the frame. The insulated driver was intermittently shorting out when it touched the bottom of the firebox. Fortunately, I found this out before I put the decoder in! I too put my model in a foam cradle and found that one of the springs had disappeared. I replaced springs on this driver set with stiffer steel versions and the upwards travel problem and short went away.

I as well have experienced the joys of driver springs popping out while working on the drive train of a PFM K-27.

D. Buxton 

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:38 AM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Robert Veefkind
 



In a message dated 5/11/2020 7:52:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, ebtmodeler@... writes:

Gents I have found with the light copper spring you can loose the springs to vaporization. Short period of high current draw can melt the springs! 
I have two or three locos that have lost more than half their springs over the years.
I usually replace them with steel springs cut down to fit!
Just info to think about.

I have a stash of NWSL springs around here somewhere
Where did you find these springs you cut down ?    and any secrets to keeping them in place while you fit the drivers in   Bob V.




Jim Spencer
 

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.