Topics

Conoco narrow gauge tank cars


Robert Veefkind
 

Good day gentle modelers

After re-reading Grandts pictorial and Dr. Sloans N.G. freight cars, I am convinced modeling them (tank cars) is a hobby in itself. They were built with various frames different trucks and brake systems.Even on a wood frame with truss rods. The lettering changed over the years too. Most of you are aware of these things I know.
Dry transfer lettering to me is much preferred. I still have a bunch of CDS dry transfers but they are dried out and all suggestions to restore them did not work.I wonder what the shelf life is?
I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind
 


Bill Lugg
 

Regarding the frame, what are the chances one could be modeled and 3D printed?  It seems like a cavity could be provided for weight, or the weight could go in the tank, for that matter.

Just a thought.
Bill Lugg

On 7/15/20 1:08 PM, Robert Veefkind via groups.io wrote:
Good day gentle modelers

After re-reading Grandts pictorial and Dr. Sloans N.G. freight cars, I am convinced modeling them (tank cars) is a hobby in itself. They were built with various frames different trucks and brake systems.Even on a wood frame with truss rods. The lettering changed over the years too. Most of you are aware of these things I know.
Dry transfer lettering to me is much preferred. I still have a bunch of CDS dry transfers but they are dried out and all suggestions to restore them did not work.I wonder what the shelf life is?
I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind


kevin b
 


I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind

hello Bob, and all other interested parties:

personally, i think the thing to do for the MDC tank car is make a frame for it.
i have a spin casting machine, i can get a mold made.
i am not a machinist and therefore can't make a master pattern myself.

in my opinion, the MDC frame is about 2x thicker (top to bottom) than it needs to be.

so, now where to get a master pattern.....

Kevin.
 
hello Bob.


lloyd lehrer
 

kevin, just order one kit from Precision scale. 
lloyd lehrer, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA (310)951-9097


On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:49 PM kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind

hello Bob, and all other interested parties:

personally, i think the thing to do for the MDC tank car is make a frame for it.
i have a spin casting machine, i can get a mold made.
i am not a machinist and therefore can't make a master pattern myself.

in my opinion, the MDC frame is about 2x thicker (top to bottom) than it needs to be.

so, now where to get a master pattern.....

Kevin.
 
hello Bob.


--
lloyd lehrer


kevin b
 

i'll have to give that some thought, although I think maybe i'd rather not copy someone elses product without permission.
thanks.
Kevin.

On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 01:29:10 AM CDT, lloyd lehrer <lloydlehrer@...> wrote:


kevin, just order one kit from Precision scale. 
lloyd lehrer, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA (310)951-9097


On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:49 PM kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind

hello Bob, and all other interested parties:

personally, i think the thing to do for the MDC tank car is make a frame for it.
i have a spin casting machine, i can get a mold made.
i am not a machinist and therefore can't make a master pattern myself.

in my opinion, the MDC frame is about 2x thicker (top to bottom) than it needs to be.

so, now where to get a master pattern.....

Kevin.
 
hello Bob.


--
lloyd lehrer


Bill Lugg
 

Also, if I recall correctly, a mold master needs to be made a little oversized to account for shrinkage during the casting process.

Bill Lugg

On 7/16/20 3:02 AM, kevin b via groups.io wrote:
i'll have to give that some thought, although I think maybe i'd rather not copy someone elses product without permission.
thanks.
Kevin.

On Thursday, July 16, 2020, 01:29:10 AM CDT, lloyd lehrer <@lloydlehrer> wrote:


kevin, just order one kit from Precision scale.
lloyd lehrer, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA (310)951-9097


On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:49 PM kevin b via groups.io <http://groups.io> <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:yahoo.com@groups.io>> wrote:


I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame
proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind

hello Bob, and all other interested parties:

personally, i think the thing to do for the MDC tank car is make a
frame for it.
i have a spin casting machine, i can get a mold made.
i am not a machinist and therefore can't make a master pattern myself.

in my opinion, the MDC frame is about 2x thicker (top to bottom)
than it needs to be.

so, now where to get a master pattern.....

Kevin.
hello Bob.


--
lloyd lehrer


kevin b
 



Also, if I recall correctly, a mold master needs to be made a little
oversized to account for shrinkage during the casting process.

Bill Lugg


Hello Bill.

to be done correctly, about 4% over size master to make a dead on casting.
however, if this tank frame idea comes together, 4% under or over probably won't make  much difference, as has been stated, it's a bakers dozen of early frames on those cars anyhow.

thanks.
Kevin.


John Stutz
 

Robert

A few years ago I bought an HO scale frame forfor UTLX prototype of the MDC tank cars form Shapeways. I believe that it is still being offered.
However My reading of the Grandt Pictorial is that the relatively high center of gravity of these cars was enough of a problem to preclude running them on 3' gauge trucks. Although that seems questionable, since a tank on flatcar is carried almost as high, and the converted UTLX Van Dyke (Gramps) tanks were only a few inches lower.

On July 15, 2020 at 12:08 PM "Robert Veefkind via groups.io" <snookdust@...> wrote:

Good day gentle modelers

After re-reading Grandts pictorial and Dr. Sloans N.G. freight cars, I am convinced modeling them (tank cars) is a hobby in itself. They were built with various frames different trucks and brake systems.Even on a wood frame with truss rods. The lettering changed over the years too. Most of you are aware of these things I know.
Dry transfer lettering to me is much preferred. I still have a bunch of CDS dry transfers but they are dried out and all suggestions to restore them did not work.I wonder what the shelf life is?
I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind
 

 


John Stutz
 

Keven and Robert

The MDC old timer tank frame is a very oversize version of that used under the UTLX X-3(?) tanks, successors to the Van Dyke frameless tank cars. A drawing of the 6,000 gallon, center sill framed car, is in the 1906 Car Builders Dictionary (available online) as figures 494-96. This frame consists of two 15" channels, with a top cover plate 19 7/8" wide. An accurate HO scale frame is available from Shapeways, but I do not recall the vendor's name.

A drawing of the 10,000 gallon UTLX Van dyke immediately precedes the above one, and give a good idea of how the 6,000 gallon version looked when new.

About 25 years ago someone offered a fairly crude narrow frame conversion kit for the MDC old timer tanks. This was basically just an injection molded rectangle of styrene channels, with bolsters and coupler mounting pads. It should be straightforward to duplicate this, using Evergreen styrene channel stock. Follow the drawings in Sloan, add decal rivets, and you can improve on it. I would screw the coupler pockets directly onto the tank, since the whole point of building narrow frame cars was to set the tank shell as low as possible while still clearing the coupler draft gear.

John Stutz

On July 15, 2020 at 5:49 PM "kevin b via groups.io" <arcatruck13@...> wrote:


I tried to mill down the MDC zamac frame to narrow frame proportions with little luck. Bob Veefkind

hello Bob, and all other interested parties:

personally, i think the thing to do for the MDC tank car is make a frame for it.
i have a spin casting machine, i can get a mold made.
i am not a machinist and therefore can't make a master pattern myself.

in my opinion, the MDC frame is about 2x thicker (top to bottom) than it needs to be.

so, now where to get a master pattern.....

Kevin.
 
hello Bob.

 

 


Brian Kopp
 

Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/T6Y3BXVEP/mdc-26-ft-tank-car-frame-1-87?optionId=42389275&li=user-wishlist

I can recommend three resources to review for NG tank cars:
Grandt NGP Volume 4
Sloan 100+10 years of DRGW NG freight cars
Slim Gauge Cars Second Edition has more drawings to complement Sloan

Sloan has a nice narrative on the Union Tank and Conoco cars, and a  bit on the Texaco cars.

Sloan says UTLX cars on the DRGW NG were rebuilts from old tank cars. UTLX had 2 styles: narrow frame and frameless, with the narrow frame at 4' 10".

Sloan also says it was Conoco who had all sorts of frame styles including flat cars, wood underframes and 4 styles of steel underframes. The tanks and domes came in various lengths and diameters too.  Grandt has a photo of derailed and flipped COLX 8 from 1913 in Telluride. You can see the really narrow steel underframe that sloan says was 18" wide. (like the MDC frame style). COLX cars became CONX cars in the 20s.


--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Robert Veefkind
 

 
 
In a message dated 7/18/2020 1:44:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, kc5lpa1@... writes:
 

sure beats an hour milling the mdc frame plus 20 minutes vacuuming
I looked for that on shapeways but did not find it----thanks


kevin b
 

Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.
looks pretty good, i especially like the center saddle on the print.
but,  it looks like it's very close to the original in size, which makes it too big for narrow gauge, at least in my opinion.
i'm likely to buy one anyhow however.
just to have it in hand for 100% inspection and so on.
by any chance, does anyone on here know the person who did the computer file for the piece?
might be he'd do another one but downsized.
i still want the thing made from metal though, that puts the weight on the car to begin with, and nice and low etc.

thanks.
kevin.




Bill Lugg
 

If you have a Shapeways account (free) you can establish a conversation with the designer and ask him the question you asked here re a scaled down/NG version.  FWIW, it looks like his design might lend itself to inserting some weight in the voids between the frame members, which might achieve your goals sufficiently...especially if you used some heavy metal like plutonium...just kidding.  :o)

HTH
Bill Lugg

On 7/18/20 5:18 PM, kevin b via groups.io wrote:
Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/T6Y3BXVEP/mdc-26-ft-tank-car-frame-1-87?optionId=42389275&li=user-wishlist

thanks for the post on that.
i checked it out.
looks pretty good, i especially like the center saddle on the print.
but,  it looks like it's very close to the original in size, which makes it too big for narrow gauge, at least in my opinion.
i'm likely to buy one anyhow however.
just to have it in hand for 100% inspection and so on.
by any chance, does anyone on here know the person who did the computer file for the piece?
might be he'd do another one but downsized.
i still want the thing made from metal though, that puts the weight on the car to begin with, and nice and low etc.

thanks.
kevin.




kevin b
 


If you have a Shapeways account (free) you can establish a conversation
with the designer and ask him the question you asked here re a scaled
down/NG version. 

roger that bill.

i already posted the question to him is his was the same size as the original.
he has yet to reply.

 FWIW, it looks like his design might lend itself to 
inserting some weight in the voids between the frame members, 

most likely, the scaled down version would not allow room for enough weight. 'course, i'd have to have one in hand and so on, which is a problem, since he hasn't made one.....

especially if you used some heavy metal like plutonium...just kidding.  :o)

er, yea, plutonium, i'll stop off at  wal mart on my way home tomorrow and pick some up. lol.... hell, who knows, they might even have it.Emoji

HTH
Bill Lugg

Kevin.


John Stutz
 

Kevin

I purchased one of these a few years ago. While I have not put a micrometer to it, I believe it is about as close to scale as the technology allows, especially since the designer states that he was working mostly from the 1906 CBD drawing for the frame of the 6,000 gallon UTLX car. This the frame that MDC widened to fit in standard Kadee HO couplers.

Note that since this frame is scale size, it is too narrow to take Kadee 714 couplers. Probably also too narrow for the new Kadee HOn3 couplers. It should work with Micro Trains 1015 or 1016 couplers, like the PSC frameless VanDyke /Gramps tank kits which also have scale width coupler mountings. Or go with Sargent's scale Sharron version of the MCB couplers.

Shapeways does do metals. I doubt that they can get the level of detail you want, or anywhere near what is achieved here. But PSC has advertised doing custom investment casting, may still do so, and might be able to do these. As I understand it, the limiting factor for lost plastic casting is the requirement that the plastic burn out cleanly, I believe that styrene and Delren do so, but I have no ideas if this is achievable with Shapeway's fine detail plastic.

John Stutz

On July 18, 2020 at 4:18 PM "kevin b via groups.io" <arcatruck13@...> wrote:

Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.
looks pretty good, i especially like the center saddle on the print.
but,  it looks like it's very close to the original in size, which makes it too big for narrow gauge, at least in my opinion.
i'm likely to buy one anyhow however.
just to have it in hand for 100% inspection and so on.
by any chance, does anyone on here know the person who did the computer file for the piece?
might be he'd do another one but downsized.
i still want the thing made from metal though, that puts the weight on the car to begin with, and nice and low etc.

thanks.
kevin.




 

 


Dale Buxton
 

John Stutz said. "I have no ideas if this is achievable with Shapeway's fine detail plastic." 

Shapeways Fine Detail Plastic Is for all intents and purposes is not usable for the lost wax process. Some folks have tried and mostly failed. You CAN NOT acquire a usable burn-out with the stuff. Too much crud is left behind. This is why FormLabs developed a special Wax Bearing Resin for the jewelry industry printers.  Shapeways does not use any FormLabs Printers. They are too slow for their business model. Also, Shapeways wax printed masters for Lost Wax casting will not print this fine of detail. Plus, it costs a fortune to have them cast pretty much anything. I would bet this tank frame would cost around $80.00 or much higher (probably MUCH, MUCH HIGHER!) printed in wax and cast in brass and it would not look near as good as Fine Detail Plastic version. 

Dale Buxton     

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:59 AM John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Kevin

I purchased one of these a few years ago. While I have not put a micrometer to it, I believe it is about as close to scale as the technology allows, especially since the designer states that he was working mostly from the 1906 CBD drawing for the frame of the 6,000 gallon UTLX car. This the frame that MDC widened to fit in standard Kadee HO couplers.

Note that since this frame is scale size, it is too narrow to take Kadee 714 couplers. Probably also too narrow for the new Kadee HOn3 couplers. It should work with Micro Trains 1015 or 1016 couplers, like the PSC frameless VanDyke /Gramps tank kits which also have scale width coupler mountings. Or go with Sargent's scale Sharron version of the MCB couplers.

Shapeways does do metals. I doubt that they can get the level of detail you want, or anywhere near what is achieved here. But PSC has advertised doing custom investment casting, may still do so, and might be able to do these. As I understand it, the limiting factor for lost plastic casting is the requirement that the plastic burn out cleanly, I believe that styrene and Delren do so, but I have no ideas if this is achievable with Shapeway's fine detail plastic.

John Stutz

On July 18, 2020 at 4:18 PM "kevin b via groups.io" <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.
looks pretty good, i especially like the center saddle on the print.
but,  it looks like it's very close to the original in size, which makes it too big for narrow gauge, at least in my opinion.
i'm likely to buy one anyhow however.
just to have it in hand for 100% inspection and so on.
by any chance, does anyone on here know the person who did the computer file for the piece?
might be he'd do another one but downsized.
i still want the thing made from metal though, that puts the weight on the car to begin with, and nice and low etc.

thanks.
kevin.




 

 


kevin b
 



Hello John.
Re:

I purchased one of these a few years ago. While I have not put a micrometer to it, I believe it is about as close to scale as the technology allows, especially since the designer states that he was working mostly from the 1906 CBD drawing for the frame of the 6,000 gallon UTLX car. This the frame that MDC widened to fit in standard Kadee HO couplers.

thank you very much for your post.
i will be ordering one of the shapeways frames.
once i get it in hand, i'll check it out etc.
might be  that solves the problem.

thanks again.
Kevin.


John Stutz
 

Thanks Dale

About what I expected.

John

On July 22, 2020 at 1:33 AM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:

John Stutz said. "I have no ideas if this is achievable with Shapeway's fine detail plastic." 

Shapeways Fine Detail Plastic Is for all intents and purposes is not usable for the lost wax process. Some folks have tried and mostly failed. You CAN NOT acquire a usable burn-out with the stuff. Too much crud is left behind. This is why FormLabs developed a special Wax Bearing Resin for the jewelry industry printers.  Shapeways does not use any FormLabs Printers. They are too slow for their business model. Also, Shapeways wax printed masters for Lost Wax casting will not print this fine of detail. Plus, it costs a fortune to have them cast pretty much anything. I would bet this tank frame would cost around $80.00 or much higher (probably MUCH, MUCH HIGHER!) printed in wax and cast in brass and it would not look near as good as Fine Detail Plastic version. 

Dale Buxton     

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:59 AM John Stutz < john.stutz@...> wrote:
Kevin

I purchased one of these a few years ago. While I have not put a micrometer to it, I believe it is about as close to scale as the technology allows, especially since the designer states that he was working mostly from the 1906 CBD drawing for the frame of the 6,000 gallon UTLX car. This the frame that MDC widened to fit in standard Kadee HO couplers.

Note that since this frame is scale size, it is too narrow to take Kadee 714 couplers. Probably also too narrow for the new Kadee HOn3 couplers. It should work with Micro Trains 1015 or 1016 couplers, like the PSC frameless VanDyke /Gramps tank kits which also have scale width coupler mountings. Or go with Sargent's scale Sharron version of the MCB couplers.

Shapeways does do metals. I doubt that they can get the level of detail you want, or anywhere near what is achieved here. But PSC has advertised doing custom investment casting, may still do so, and might be able to do these. As I understand it, the limiting factor for lost plastic casting is the requirement that the plastic burn out cleanly, I believe that styrene and Delren do so, but I have no ideas if this is achievable with Shapeway's fine detail plastic.

John Stutz

On July 18, 2020 at 4:18 PM "kevin b via groups.io" <arcatruck13= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Here s the shapeways MDC narrow frame.
looks pretty good, i especially like the center saddle on the print.
but,  it looks like it's very close to the original in size, which makes it too big for narrow gauge, at least in my opinion.
i'm likely to buy one anyhow however.
just to have it in hand for 100% inspection and so on.
by any chance, does anyone on here know the person who did the computer file for the piece?
might be he'd do another one but downsized.
i still want the thing made from metal though, that puts the weight on the car to begin with, and nice and low etc.

thanks.
kevin.




 

 


 


Robert Veefkind
 

 
 
In a message dated 7/22/2020 2:59:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, john.stutz@... writes:
 
Kevin

I purchased one of these a few years ago. While I have not put a micrometer to it, I believe it is about as close to scale as the technology allows, especially since the designer states that he was working mostly from the 1906 CBD drawing for the frame of the 6,000 gallon UTLX car. This the frame that MDC widened to fit in standard Kadee HO couplers.

Note that since this frame is scale size, it is too narrow to take Kadee 714 couplers. Probably also too narrow for the new Kadee HOn3 couplers. It should work with Micro Trains 1015 or 1016 couplers, like the PSC frameless VanDyke /Gramps tank kits which also have scale width coupler mountings. Or go with Sargent's scale Sharron version of the MCB couplers.
gauge, at least in my opinion.
Hello John
I cut down 2 MDC frames to scale size using my Sherline mill - lots of work though. They measure 2 feet wide and I cut them down to 1 1/2 foot thick. The UTLX narrow frame tanks are about 4 foot wide, so there is little resemblance there. The COLX tank frames look about right-about 2 foot wide. Did any of this type tank survive WW2 and if so how lettered?   Bob Veefkind
 

 
 


kevin b
 


I cut down 2 MDC frames to scale size using my Sherline mill - lots of work though. They measure 2 feet wide and I cut them down to 1 1/2 foot thick. The UTLX narrow frame tanks are about 4 foot wide, so there is little resemblance there. The COLX tank frames look about right-about 2 foot wide. Did any of this type tank survive WW2 and if so how lettered?   Bob Veefkind

hello Bob.
you are in luck.
i've been hot on the trail for one of these cars already.
pic attached:

i am told the build date on that car was 1907.

it is sitting at the Mid Continent Railway Museum in North Freedom Wisconsin.
i think, but i may be wrong, it is on std. gauge trucks.

as soon as i can, i'm gonna go to that museum and give it the once over.

Kevin.
aka. YUKON.