Baldwin narrow gauge locomotives


Nigel Phillips
 

Can anybody point me to where I can find Baldwin narrow gauge diagrams with dimensions? Specifically 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives around 1890. I am looking at one of the major issues of modeling in HOn3, namely the locomotives. I'm used to scratch building and bashing, getting some frames made, and constructing an appropriately gauged chassis with a narrow gearbox and motor would seem to be the best way to go. Milled/drilled or etched, along with appropriate wheels, crankpins, rods, etc. from Alan Gibson Workshop in the UK.

I looked at using an N-scale chassis and an HO body, under scale wheels and an N-scale body with a larger smokestack, domes, cab, etc. or an overscale HO body would appear to be the most obvious issues. Plus regauging the wheels in what will be a split chassis design. Blackstone models? Way too expensive for my budget.

Reason for this? I came across the Alberta Navigation and Coal Company/Great Falls and Canada Railway recently. Lots of modeling interest. Opened in 1890, 200 miles long, 3-foot gauge, changed to standard Gauge by 1903. Lots of dual gauge tracks during the conversion. Ran by the Canadian Pacific and Great Northern respectively after a lot of politicking, financial shenanigans, and buyouts.

I have found the listing of 3 locomotives erected for the Alberta railroad in 1890 in the Baldwin records I have accessed online, plus generic illustrations of the various narrow gauge locomotives in the Baldin catalogs, I might be able to get the axle spacings and wheel diameters from what I have found so far, but blueprints or erecting diagrams with the actual dimensions would be more useful.

Any assistance appreciated.



Randy Hees
 

When researching a Baldwin locomotive, you need to look at the class number and drawing number, not the common builder’s number found on the builder’s plate attached to the smoke box.  Baldwin Class numbers look like 8-18c-17. (8 total wheels, 18 is a reference to Cylinder size, C is 4 driving wheels (assuming all non driving wheels are a lead truck, and 17 is the 17th locomotive built to that class)

 

For each locomotive or group of identical locomotives there is a specification sheet, which can be found on line at the DeGolyer Library at SMU  (The DeGolyer library will soon become your new best friend) 

 

Start at Pacificng.com’s Baldwin page http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=/ref/locobuilders/blw/index.htm  Which has a description of the Class number system and links to various pages at the DeGolyer, especially the specification sheet page https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/rwy/id/32

 

Find your locomotive’s specification sheet  The specification sheet will provide lots of information including how the locomotive was painted, about cab style, injectors, dome size…   and find the drawing number on the right side of the header of the specification sheet.

 

Drawing numbers are unique to each class organized by class…   So a 8-18c drawing 1, is not the same as a 10-22d drawing 1, but in some cases a 8-16c might be built to a 8-14c drawing…

 

The class lists also have the drawing number, but those lists are not on line (but have been microfilmed)  The class list microfilm also includes a list of basic measurements by plan.      

 

DeGolyer, the California State Railroad Museum, and the Smithsonian all have some Baldwin drawings.  We have a few up at Pacificng.

 

I have copies of all the paint information and take requests... I have the drawing index but it's on microfilm and libraries are still closed here. 


Randy Hees


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 11:18 PM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
Can anybody point me to where I can find Baldwin narrow gauge diagrams with dimensions? Specifically 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives around 1890. I am looking at one of the major issues of modeling in HOn3, namely the locomotives. I'm used to scratch building and bashing, getting some frames made, and constructing an appropriately gauged chassis with a narrow gearbox and motor would seem to be the best way to go. Milled/drilled or etched, along with appropriate wheels, crankpins, rods, etc. from Alan Gibson Workshop in the UK.

I looked at using an N-scale chassis and an HO body, under scale wheels and an N-scale body with a larger smokestack, domes, cab, etc. or an overscale HO body would appear to be the most obvious issues. Plus regauging the wheels in what will be a split chassis design. Blackstone models? Way too expensive for my budget.

Reason for this? I came across the Alberta Navigation and Coal Company/Great Falls and Canada Railway recently. Lots of modeling interest. Opened in 1890, 200 miles long, 3-foot gauge, changed to standard Gauge by 1903. Lots of dual gauge tracks during the conversion. Ran by the Canadian Pacific and Great Northern respectively after a lot of politicking, financial shenanigans, and buyouts.

I have found the listing of 3 locomotives erected for the Alberta railroad in 1890 in the Baldwin records I have accessed online, plus generic illustrations of the various narrow gauge locomotives in the Baldin catalogs, I might be able to get the axle spacings and wheel diameters from what I have found so far, but blueprints or erecting diagrams with the actual dimensions would be more useful.

Any assistance appreciated.



Nigel Phillips
 

Thanks Randy.

The Degoyler website I have already looked at, what a great collection. If they have the diagrams I am good to go. Very interesting how Baldwin coded their builds. Quite instructive in fact. The order specification  sheet has lots of information, but as I am leaning towards generating etches a diagram is essential. Numbers located at top rhs. No brakes on the engine, but on the tender trucks. And an unflanged middle driver on a Mogul. Good to know as this level of detail is not clear from old photographs.

I just received an email that the milling service I was hoping to use for the frames is no longer available, lack of demand. Might try the old way of brass sheet tack soldered, drills and files. I

Nigel





On Monday, March 1, 2021, Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:

When researching a Baldwin locomotive, you need to look at the class number and drawing number, not the common builder’s number found on the builder’s plate attached to the smoke box.  Baldwin Class numbers look like 8-18c-17. (8 total wheels, 18 is a reference to Cylinder size, C is 4 driving wheels (assuming all non driving wheels are a lead truck, and 17 is the 17th locomotive built to that class)

 

For each locomotive or group of identical locomotives there is a specification sheet, which can be found on line at the DeGolyer Library at SMU  (The DeGolyer library will soon become your new best friend) 

 

Start at Pacificng.com’s Baldwin page http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=/ref/locobuilders/blw/index.htm  Which has a description of the Class number system and links to various pages at the DeGolyer, especially the specification sheet page https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/rwy/id/32

 

Find your locomotive’s specification sheet  The specification sheet will provide lots of information including how the locomotive was painted, about cab style, injectors, dome size…   and find the drawing number on the right side of the header of the specification sheet.

 

Drawing numbers are unique to each class organized by class…   So a 8-18c drawing 1, is not the same as a 10-22d drawing 1, but in some cases a 8-16c might be built to a 8-14c drawing…

 

The class lists also have the drawing number, but those lists are not on line (but have been microfilmed)  The class list microfilm also includes a list of basic measurements by plan.      

 

DeGolyer, the California State Railroad Museum, and the Smithsonian all have some Baldwin drawings.  We have a few up at Pacificng.

 

I have copies of all the paint information and take requests... I have the drawing index but it's on microfilm and libraries are still closed here. 


Randy Hees


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 11:18 PM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
Can anybody point me to where I can find Baldwin narrow gauge diagrams with dimensions? Specifically 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives around 1890. I am looking at one of the major issues of modeling in HOn3, namely the locomotives. I'm used to scratch building and bashing, getting some frames made, and constructing an appropriately gauged chassis with a narrow gearbox and motor would seem to be the best way to go. Milled/drilled or etched, along with appropriate wheels, crankpins, rods, etc. from Alan Gibson Workshop in the UK.

I looked at using an N-scale chassis and an HO body, under scale wheels and an N-scale body with a larger smokestack, domes, cab, etc. or an overscale HO body would appear to be the most obvious issues. Plus regauging the wheels in what will be a split chassis design. Blackstone models? Way too expensive for my budget.

Reason for this? I came across the Alberta Navigation and Coal Company/Great Falls and Canada Railway recently. Lots of modeling interest. Opened in 1890, 200 miles long, 3-foot gauge, changed to standard Gauge by 1903. Lots of dual gauge tracks during the conversion. Ran by the Canadian Pacific and Great Northern respectively after a lot of politicking, financial shenanigans, and buyouts.

I have found the listing of 3 locomotives erected for the Alberta railroad in 1890 in the Baldwin records I have accessed online, plus generic illustrations of the various narrow gauge locomotives in the Baldin catalogs, I might be able to get the axle spacings and wheel diameters from what I have found so far, but blueprints or erecting diagrams with the actual dimensions would be more useful.

Any assistance appreciated.



Randy Hees
 

I just got word that our local library reopened.   I will take my micro film and find the table of measurements by drawing number...  Do you have the class and drawing numbers handy?

Randy

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 2:40 PM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
Thanks Randy.

The Degoyler website I have already looked at, what a great collection. If they have the diagrams I am good to go. Very interesting how Baldwin coded their builds. Quite instructive in fact. The order specification  sheet has lots of information, but as I am leaning towards generating etches a diagram is essential. Numbers located at top rhs. No brakes on the engine, but on the tender trucks. And an unflanged middle driver on a Mogul. Good to know as this level of detail is not clear from old photographs.

I just received an email that the milling service I was hoping to use for the frames is no longer available, lack of demand. Might try the old way of brass sheet tack soldered, drills and files. I

Nigel





On Monday, March 1, 2021, Randy Hees <randyhees@...> wrote:

When researching a Baldwin locomotive, you need to look at the class number and drawing number, not the common builder’s number found on the builder’s plate attached to the smoke box.  Baldwin Class numbers look like 8-18c-17. (8 total wheels, 18 is a reference to Cylinder size, C is 4 driving wheels (assuming all non driving wheels are a lead truck, and 17 is the 17th locomotive built to that class)

 

For each locomotive or group of identical locomotives there is a specification sheet, which can be found on line at the DeGolyer Library at SMU  (The DeGolyer library will soon become your new best friend) 

 

Start at Pacificng.com’s Baldwin page http://www.pacificng.com/template.php?page=/ref/locobuilders/blw/index.htm  Which has a description of the Class number system and links to various pages at the DeGolyer, especially the specification sheet page https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/rwy/id/32

 

Find your locomotive’s specification sheet  The specification sheet will provide lots of information including how the locomotive was painted, about cab style, injectors, dome size…   and find the drawing number on the right side of the header of the specification sheet.

 

Drawing numbers are unique to each class organized by class…   So a 8-18c drawing 1, is not the same as a 10-22d drawing 1, but in some cases a 8-16c might be built to a 8-14c drawing…

 

The class lists also have the drawing number, but those lists are not on line (but have been microfilmed)  The class list microfilm also includes a list of basic measurements by plan.      

 

DeGolyer, the California State Railroad Museum, and the Smithsonian all have some Baldwin drawings.  We have a few up at Pacificng.

 

I have copies of all the paint information and take requests... I have the drawing index but it's on microfilm and libraries are still closed here. 


Randy Hees


On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 11:18 PM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
Can anybody point me to where I can find Baldwin narrow gauge diagrams with dimensions? Specifically 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives around 1890. I am looking at one of the major issues of modeling in HOn3, namely the locomotives. I'm used to scratch building and bashing, getting some frames made, and constructing an appropriately gauged chassis with a narrow gearbox and motor would seem to be the best way to go. Milled/drilled or etched, along with appropriate wheels, crankpins, rods, etc. from Alan Gibson Workshop in the UK.

I looked at using an N-scale chassis and an HO body, under scale wheels and an N-scale body with a larger smokestack, domes, cab, etc. or an overscale HO body would appear to be the most obvious issues. Plus regauging the wheels in what will be a split chassis design. Blackstone models? Way too expensive for my budget.

Reason for this? I came across the Alberta Navigation and Coal Company/Great Falls and Canada Railway recently. Lots of modeling interest. Opened in 1890, 200 miles long, 3-foot gauge, changed to standard Gauge by 1903. Lots of dual gauge tracks during the conversion. Ran by the Canadian Pacific and Great Northern respectively after a lot of politicking, financial shenanigans, and buyouts.

I have found the listing of 3 locomotives erected for the Alberta railroad in 1890 in the Baldwin records I have accessed online, plus generic illustrations of the various narrow gauge locomotives in the Baldin catalogs, I might be able to get the axle spacings and wheel diameters from what I have found so far, but blueprints or erecting diagrams with the actual dimensions would be more useful.

Any assistance appreciated.



John Stutz
 

Nigel

RE: Alberta Ry & coal 2-8-0s

On looking through my 1991 edition of the DeGolyer Library's listing of available BLW Erecting Card drawings, I fail to find anything for the AR&C or the H&C.  However they do have a side elevation and cross sections for 10-26-E, drawing 9, #188 of 1891 and built as the Cauca railroad's #4, listed as collection index# 675A-10.  The basic locomotive: boiler, frames and motion work, should be identical to the AR&C and H&C engines.  Minor items like cab, running boards, sand box, stack, brake apparatus & etc. may differ, but can be corrected from photographs.  The BLW specifications book's entry may show what was changed. 

BLW erecting cards were made to show how the locomotives were to be assembled, and are profusely dimensioned, except for the boiler, which arrived complete on the erecting floor.   They are not quite up to the obsessive completeness of British style general arrangement drawings, but far more so than anything you will find in a modeling magazine. 

John Stutz


John Stutz
 

Nigel

RE: NWC&N and AR&C 2-6-0s

The North Western Coal & Navigation 2-6-0s of 1885 comprised two different designs: class 8-18-D, drawing 7, #61-63, delivered in March 1885, and 8-18-D, drawing 9, #66-68, delivered in Oct & Nov 1885.  I suspect this has been a source of much confusion, due to assuming that all six were the same design.  Photographs suggest that drawing 7 has a straight boiler, and drawing 9 has a wagon top boiler.

Class 8-18-D drawing 7 was widely built, as: #53 for Florida Southern 1/82, #54 for R.G.Peters 4/83, #59 for Olympia & Chehales Valley 5/84, #64 for Charlotte(?), Colombia & Augusta 10/85, #69 for Americus, Preston & Lumpkin 1/87, #70 for Surry, Sussex & Southampton #4 of 10/88, #74 for Surry, Sussex & Southampton #6 of 9/91, and #82 and #85 for Luis Redor 11/92 and 9/93 respectively. 

The only other example of 10-18-D drawing 9 was delivered to the Pajaro Valley in 7/91.  I attach a photo, from Shaw, Fisher & Harlan's "Oil Lamps and Iron Ponies" (1949), of what they identify as this engine.  The PV had 5 later Moguls, but they are listed in class 8-20-D  drawing 20, indicating 13" cylinders. More recent sources may have better information.

None of the above appear in DeGolyer's 1991 list of BLW erection drawings.  However Surry, Sussex & Southampton #6 of 9/91 has been preserved and is operated at the Midwest Central Railroad Museum in Mt Pleasent Iowa.  So you have a, possibly much altered, example of the 8-18-D drawing 7 design available.  See < ">https://www.mcrr.org/PAGES/six.html>.  H.T.Crittenden's history or the Surry, Sussex & Southampton, titled "The Comp'ny" (1967), has a few photographs of #4 and #6.

The larger Alberta Railway and Coal 2-6-0s of 1890 were class 8-22-D, drawing 10, #140-43.  The other examples are: #27 & 28 for South Pacific Coast 11 & 12 of 6/81, # 64 and # 108 for Champerico & N. Co. of Guatemala in 9/82 and 3/84 respectively, #75 for North Pacific Coast in 1/83, and 135 for Michoncan Ry & Mining Co in 8/89.   The SPC pair are very well known, and I enclose a pair of Southern Pacific (successor to SPC) engine diagrams.  The 1894 version is out of a set of drawings that accompanied Bruce MacGreggor's "Narrow Gauge Portrait of the South Pacific Coast", while the circa 1920 version is from Robert Bader's  recent "Southern Pacific Narrow Gauge - Locomotives and Freight Equipment", showing SP 11 & 12 before their conversion to 4-6-0s.   

So you can find good information for modeling two of the three designs, despite the quite sparse information available for your actual prototypes.

John Stutz


Nigel Phillips
 

Checked out the Smithsonian website They have some downloadable engineering diagrams some of which appear to be 3' gauge and D&RG. 1870s-1880s, 2-6-0, 2-8-0, 4-6-0. Google [Baldwin locomotive smithsonian] and that should get you there.


On Friday, February 26, 2021, Nigel Phillips via groups.io <nigelp18000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Can anybody point me to where I can find Baldwin narrow gauge diagrams with dimensions? Specifically 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives around 1890. I am looking at one of the major issues of modeling in HOn3, namely the locomotives. I'm used to scratch building and bashing, getting some frames made, and constructing an appropriately gauged chassis with a narrow gearbox and motor would seem to be the best way to go. Milled/drilled or etched, along with appropriate wheels, crankpins, rods, etc. from Alan Gibson Workshop in the UK.

I looked at using an N-scale chassis and an HO body, under scale wheels and an N-scale body with a larger smokestack, domes, cab, etc. or an overscale HO body would appear to be the most obvious issues. Plus regauging the wheels in what will be a split chassis design. Blackstone models? Way too expensive for my budget.

Reason for this? I came across the Alberta Navigation and Coal Company/Great Falls and Canada Railway recently. Lots of modeling interest. Opened in 1890, 200 miles long, 3-foot gauge, changed to standard Gauge by 1903. Lots of dual gauge tracks during the conversion. Ran by the Canadian Pacific and Great Northern respectively after a lot of politicking, financial shenanigans, and buyouts.

I have found the listing of 3 locomotives erected for the Alberta railroad in 1890 in the Baldwin records I have accessed online, plus generic illustrations of the various narrow gauge locomotives in the Baldin catalogs, I might be able to get the axle spacings and wheel diameters from what I have found so far, but blueprints or erecting diagrams with the actual dimensions would be more useful.

Any assistance appreciated.