Alberta Navigation and Coal/Great Falls and Canada Railway


Nigel Phillips
 

Came across this 200-mile long 3 foot gauge railway in Montana/Alberta that ran from 1890 to around 1903 before becoming standard gauge (with a lot of dual gauge track during the transition). Quite a few more narrow gauge miles around Lethbridge, AB. The standard gauge was operated by the Great Northern and the Canadian Pacific after a lot of political maneuvering and financial skullduggery. Lots of interesting modeling interests, including a transborder depot that bisected the international boundary.

The starting locomotives were Baldwins, the first 3 erected in 1890 (and in the Baldwin records). 4-4-0's, then on to 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives. Quite a few photographs of the locomotives are around but most lack suitable datum points to guesstimate dimensions. I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? Specifically the Moguls. Trawling through the available information online I have some possible wheel diameters (dependent on the cylinder dimensions), but a diagram with the major dimensions is what I am really looking for. Rather than going down the regauging route, which I'm very familiar with as I model EM gauge (16.5 to 18.2mm), I think it's more feasible to have some frames cut and etched and proceed from there with the bodywork. Wheels and cut-down axles from Alan Gibson Works in the UK, along with a narrow gearbox and motor suitable for DCC operation. Built a few of these in OO/4mm scale, so nothing new there.

I looked briefly at regauging an N-scale chassis and using 3D printed add-ons for the boiler, cab, and tender but I'm not convinced that an N-scale body is a good match for the body, and the same applies to the wheels.

Any assitance appreciated.


kevin b
 



i have a friend who may know about a book or books to assist you.
i'll contact him and see what he may know.
will replay asap.

as for using N gauge anything on an HO model, the problem is whatever you want to use, is in N gauge.
for instance: wheels, way too little, too narrow, spokes way too puny, and on and on.
not saying a N scale motor etc won't work, but you'd have to up size the drivers at the very least, but i don't see that working because the diameters would be too big and not clear each other due to axle spacing.

i HOPE you solve the problem, because i too want to scratch build some locos.
p.s.c lists a set of drivers for a C-16. a 4 axle set, 2 with flanges, 2 without, one axle geared, and one lead truck wheel set.
they are not exactly cheap though, last time i looked the set was close to 90 bucks.

'course, there are still some HOn3 MDC kits out there, on ebay and so on, but they're running roughly a c note each.
but, if it's all there, you get a complete 2-8-0 that way.

more later.
Kevin.




Came across this 200-mile long 3 foot gauge railway in Montana/Alberta that ran from 1890 to around 1903 before becoming standard gauge (with a lot of dual gauge track during the transition). Quite a few more narrow gauge miles around Lethbridge, AB. The standard gauge was operated by the Great Northern and the Canadian Pacific after a lot of political maneuvering and financial skullduggery. Lots of interesting modeling interests, including a transborder depot that bisected the international boundary.

The starting locomotives were Baldwins, the first 3 erected in 1890 (and in the Baldwin records). 4-4-0's, then on to 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives. Quite a few photographs of the locomotives are around but most lack suitable datum points to guesstimate dimensions. I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? Specifically the Moguls. Trawling through the available information online I have some possible wheel diameters (dependent on the cylinder dimensions), but a diagram with the major dimensions is what I am really looking for. Rather than going down the regauging route, which I'm very familiar with as I model EM gauge (16.5 to 18.2mm), I think it's more feasible to have some frames cut and etched and proceed from there with the bodywork. Wheels and cut-down axles from Alan Gibson Works in the UK, along with a narrow gearbox and motor suitable for DCC operation. Built a few of these in OO/4mm scale, so nothing new there.

I looked briefly at regauging an N-scale chassis and using 3D printed add-ons for the boiler, cab, and tender but I'm not convinced that an N-scale body is a good match for the body, and the same applies to the wheels.

Any assitance appreciated.


Nigel Phillips
 

Thanks, Kevin,

The Southern Methodist University (SMU) has an impressive database of Balwin records and documents. These include the order books with an index by the purchaser or by class. I came across this through PacificNG.org

The SMU site is https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/rwy/id/32   The later C16 locomotives built by Baldwinshould be in there.

The lines I am interested in had 3 orders in 1890 for a 2.6.0 and two 0-6-0 locomotives. The order book gives customer-specific dimensions such as cylinder sizes, wheel diameters, etc. Diagrams are also available which have to be ordered. Going through the order books is tedious work, all handwritten in cursive.

The sources I use in the UK for wheels, axles, etc. are as follows:

Alan Gibson Workshop  -  alangibsonworkshop.com
Markits  -  markits.com

I have had a look at the P.S.C. offering, but as this is designed for the D&RG C16 it may not suit the later 2-8-0 locomotives built by Baldwin for the Alberta/Great Falls line. It's also HOn30, not HOn3, which would mean drifting out the axles and replacing them with longer ones. AGW wheels, crankpins, and rods come to around $70.00, enough for an 8-coupled engine. Driving gear and narrow gearbox come to around $20-$50 depending on the source. Markits has TT axles, gearboxes, etc. HOn3 gauge, and instant quartering with this design. UK scratch modeling has a slightly different philosophy, motor (± flywheel) with worm driving a brass gear directly in a gearbox that locates on the driving axle. Both AGW and Markits wheels are normally RP25 compliant. Something from NWSL would be the alternative, although the product range is reduced.

No mill or lathe since downsizing. If AGW agrees to do the frame millings (I am in the process of asking), they are made available to others who want them. Around $15 each for the engine or tender. Otherwise, it's an etch in N/S, which will be expensive for the first sheet (but lots of space for other things). Home etching is less precise but more expensive than commercial etching for a limited run. Commercially, up to 12 x 12 inch etching costs around $50 for the setup, around $50 for the etch, depending on how much half etching is done (front or back). That's a lot of etching, enough for lots of pieces. If anybody knows of an etching service that does model railroad one-offs here in the US please let me know. I also know of one company in the UK that will take a works diagram and generate the etches for a custom build.

Anybody interested in having something etched let me know and I'll see if it can be done at the same time. Layered vector graphics, I use CorelDraw.

Sorry for the 2 previous posts, didn't realize there was a delay.





On Monday, March 1, 2021, kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


i have a friend who may know about a book or books to assist you.
i'll contact him and see what he may know.
will replay asap.

as for using N gauge anything on an HO model, the problem is whatever you want to use, is in N gauge.
for instance: wheels, way too little, too narrow, spokes way too puny, and on and on.
not saying a N scale motor etc won't work, but you'd have to up size the drivers at the very least, but i don't see that working because the diameters would be too big and not clear each other due to axle spacing.

i HOPE you solve the problem, because i too want to scratch build some locos.
p.s.c lists a set of drivers for a C-16. a 4 axle set, 2 with flanges, 2 without, one axle geared, and one lead truck wheel set.
they are not exactly cheap though, last time i looked the set was close to 90 bucks.

'course, there are still some HOn3 MDC kits out there, on ebay and so on, but they're running roughly a c note each.
but, if it's all there, you get a complete 2-8-0 that way.

more later.
Kevin.




Came across this 200-mile long 3 foot gauge railway in Montana/Alberta that ran from 1890 to around 1903 before becoming standard gauge (with a lot of dual gauge track during the transition). Quite a few more narrow gauge miles around Lethbridge, AB. The standard gauge was operated by the Great Northern and the Canadian Pacific after a lot of political maneuvering and financial skullduggery. Lots of interesting modeling interests, including a transborder depot that bisected the international boundary.

The starting locomotives were Baldwins, the first 3 erected in 1890 (and in the Baldwin records). 4-4-0's, then on to 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives. Quite a few photographs of the locomotives are around but most lack suitable datum points to guesstimate dimensions. I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? Specifically the Moguls. Trawling through the available information online I have some possible wheel diameters (dependent on the cylinder dimensions), but a diagram with the major dimensions is what I am really looking for. Rather than going down the regauging route, which I'm very familiar with as I model EM gauge (16.5 to 18.2mm), I think it's more feasible to have some frames cut and etched and proceed from there with the bodywork. Wheels and cut-down axles from Alan Gibson Works in the UK, along with a narrow gearbox and motor suitable for DCC operation. Built a few of these in OO/4mm scale, so nothing new there.

I looked briefly at regauging an N-scale chassis and using 3D printed add-ons for the boiler, cab, and tender but I'm not convinced that an N-scale body is a good match for the body, and the same applies to the wheels.

Any assitance appreciated.


Nigel Phillips
 

Correction. Two 2-6-0 tender locomotives with 41" drivers, middle driver unflanged, two 2-8-0 tender locomotive with 37" drivers, middle two drivers unflanged. There were some tight curves/switches in the Lethbridge yard, yet to find a plan of the Great Falls yard. The roundhouse at Lethbridge was quite big, probably changed the builder of the locomotives.


On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 11:47 AM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
Thanks, Kevin,

The Southern Methodist University (SMU) has an impressive database of Balwin records and documents. These include the order books with an index by the purchaser or by class. I came across this through PacificNG.org

The SMU site is https://digitalcollections.smu.edu/digital/collection/rwy/id/32   The later C16 locomotives built by Baldwinshould be in there.

The lines I am interested in had 3 orders in 1890 for a 2.6.0 and two 0-6-0 locomotives. The order book gives customer-specific dimensions such as cylinder sizes, wheel diameters, etc. Diagrams are also available which have to be ordered. Going through the order books is tedious work, all handwritten in cursive.

The sources I use in the UK for wheels, axles, etc. are as follows:

Alan Gibson Workshop  -  alangibsonworkshop.com
Markits  -  markits.com

I have had a look at the P.S.C. offering, but as this is designed for the D&RG C16 it may not suit the later 2-8-0 locomotives built by Baldwin for the Alberta/Great Falls line. It's also HOn30, not HOn3, which would mean drifting out the axles and replacing them with longer ones. AGW wheels, crankpins, and rods come to around $70.00, enough for an 8-coupled engine. Driving gear and narrow gearbox come to around $20-$50 depending on the source. Markits has TT axles, gearboxes, etc. HOn3 gauge, and instant quartering with this design. UK scratch modeling has a slightly different philosophy, motor (± flywheel) with worm driving a brass gear directly in a gearbox that locates on the driving axle. Both AGW and Markits wheels are normally RP25 compliant. Something from NWSL would be the alternative, although the product range is reduced.

No mill or lathe since downsizing. If AGW agrees to do the frame millings (I am in the process of asking), they are made available to others who want them. Around $15 each for the engine or tender. Otherwise, it's an etch in N/S, which will be expensive for the first sheet (but lots of space for other things). Home etching is less precise but more expensive than commercial etching for a limited run. Commercially, up to 12 x 12 inch etching costs around $50 for the setup, around $50 for the etch, depending on how much half etching is done (front or back). That's a lot of etching, enough for lots of pieces. If anybody knows of an etching service that does model railroad one-offs here in the US please let me know. I also know of one company in the UK that will take a works diagram and generate the etches for a custom build.

Anybody interested in having something etched let me know and I'll see if it can be done at the same time. Layered vector graphics, I use CorelDraw.

Sorry for the 2 previous posts, didn't realize there was a delay.





On Monday, March 1, 2021, kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:


i have a friend who may know about a book or books to assist you.
i'll contact him and see what he may know.
will replay asap.

as for using N gauge anything on an HO model, the problem is whatever you want to use, is in N gauge.
for instance: wheels, way too little, too narrow, spokes way too puny, and on and on.
not saying a N scale motor etc won't work, but you'd have to up size the drivers at the very least, but i don't see that working because the diameters would be too big and not clear each other due to axle spacing.

i HOPE you solve the problem, because i too want to scratch build some locos.
p.s.c lists a set of drivers for a C-16. a 4 axle set, 2 with flanges, 2 without, one axle geared, and one lead truck wheel set.
they are not exactly cheap though, last time i looked the set was close to 90 bucks.

'course, there are still some HOn3 MDC kits out there, on ebay and so on, but they're running roughly a c note each.
but, if it's all there, you get a complete 2-8-0 that way.

more later.
Kevin.




Came across this 200-mile long 3 foot gauge railway in Montana/Alberta that ran from 1890 to around 1903 before becoming standard gauge (with a lot of dual gauge track during the transition). Quite a few more narrow gauge miles around Lethbridge, AB. The standard gauge was operated by the Great Northern and the Canadian Pacific after a lot of political maneuvering and financial skullduggery. Lots of interesting modeling interests, including a transborder depot that bisected the international boundary.

The starting locomotives were Baldwins, the first 3 erected in 1890 (and in the Baldwin records). 4-4-0's, then on to 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 locomotives. Quite a few photographs of the locomotives are around but most lack suitable datum points to guesstimate dimensions. I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? Specifically the Moguls. Trawling through the available information online I have some possible wheel diameters (dependent on the cylinder dimensions), but a diagram with the major dimensions is what I am really looking for. Rather than going down the regauging route, which I'm very familiar with as I model EM gauge (16.5 to 18.2mm), I think it's more feasible to have some frames cut and etched and proceed from there with the bodywork. Wheels and cut-down axles from Alan Gibson Works in the UK, along with a narrow gearbox and motor suitable for DCC operation. Built a few of these in OO/4mm scale, so nothing new there.

I looked briefly at regauging an N-scale chassis and using 3D printed add-ons for the boiler, cab, and tender but I'm not convinced that an N-scale body is a good match for the body, and the same applies to the wheels.

Any assitance appreciated.


John Stutz
 

Nigel

For Canadian narrow gauge lines, the starting point is Omar Lavallee's "Narrow Gauge Railways of Canada" (1972).  This has brief histories, detailed locomotive rosters, line side photographs, and sketches of locomotives for most lines.  I attache his sketch of the AR&C's heavy Moguls.

Regarding the Consolidations, Lavallee records that two went via the Utah Central to the Rio Grand Western, and ultimately to the D&RGW.  The Colorado Railroad Museum's "Locomotives of the Rio Grande" (1980) indicates that the RGW converted two of the ex UC 2-8-0s to standard gauge in 1900, which on merger became D&RG 554 and 555.  These were converted back to NG in 1918, and after the D&RGW renumbering of 1924, were classified as C-17 #305 and 306, dismantled in '27 and '35 respectively. 

Regarding similar Consolidations, the BLW Class List shows all seven AR&C delivered in July 1890 as class 10-26-E, drawing 9, #155-161. Class AND drawing number identifies the specific design, although auxiliary fittings can vary greatly between orders, while the locomotive numbers are sequential within the class.  Class 10-26-E reached drawing 64 and locomotive #472 by 8/26, the last entry in my copy.

Design 10-26-E drawing 9 had first been built for the Hancock and & Calumet, with deliveries of #95 & 96 in 9/85, #105 in 7/87, #128 in 1/89, #172 in 1/91, and #173 in 2/91.  The latter was actually for the closely associated Mineral Range.  Two of these ended up on the North Shore, later the North Western Pacific, in maintenance service on a commuter lline north of San Francisco Bay.  Other examples were built for the East & West RR of Alabama, as #97 & 98 of 12/85, Canca RR as #188 of 7/91, and Utah Central as #236 of 10/95.  The CRM author believed that the latter was actually the ex. UC engine that ended as D&RGW 306.

The visually similar D&RG class 70s of 1887, later D&RGW class C-17, were built to drawing 10, #99-104 in 5/87.  I've no idea of exactly how drawings 9 and 10 differed, but note that no other engines were built to this class and drawing. 

Another similar and well documented design, the D&RGW's  class C-18,  consisted of six of the 10 Florence & Cripple Creek consolidations, all built to 10-26-E drawing 18, from 7/95 to 3/97.  Two additional of drawing 18 were built for the Silverton Northern in 4/04 and 4/06, both of which last saw service during WWII on the White Pass & Yukon.  Of these, D&RGW 315 has been restored to operation and is now based in Silverton.

So between the other 10-26-E drawing 9 locomotives, and the similar but much better documented locomotives of drawings 10 and 18, there is actually quite a lot of examples for study, including one survivor. 

John Stutz


Nigel Phillips
 

Thanks John.

I am left  wondering where the other locomotives came from. One of the other associated Companies? The information below will help enormously. Book ordered. More research.


On Monday, March 1, 2021, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Nigel

For Canadian narrow gauge lines, the starting point is Omar Lavallee's "Narrow Gauge Railways of Canada" (1972).  This has brief histories, detailed locomotive rosters, line side photographs, and sketches of locomotives for most lines.  I attache his sketch of the AR&C's heavy Moguls.

Regarding the Consolidations, Lavallee records that two went via the Utah Central to the Rio Grand Western, and ultimately to the D&RGW.  The Colorado Railroad Museum's "Locomotives of the Rio Grande" (1980) indicates that the RGW converted two of the ex UC 2-8-0s to standard gauge in 1900, which on merger became D&RG 554 and 555.  These were converted back to NG in 1918, and after the D&RGW renumbering of 1924, were classified as C-17 #305 and 306, dismantled in '27 and '35 respectively. 

Regarding similar Consolidations, the BLW Class List shows all seven AR&C delivered in July 1890 as class 10-26-E, drawing 9, #155-161. Class AND drawing number identifies the specific design, although auxiliary fittings can vary greatly between orders, while the locomotive numbers are sequential within the class.  Class 10-26-E reached drawing 64 and locomotive #472 by 8/26, the last entry in my copy.

Design 10-26-E drawing 9 had first been built for the Hancock and & Calumet, with deliveries of #95 & 96 in 9/85, #105 in 7/87, #128 in 1/89, #172 in 1/91, and #173 in 2/91.  The latter was actually for the closely associated Mineral Range.  Two of these ended up on the North Shore, later the North Western Pacific, in maintenance service on a commuter lline north of San Francisco Bay.  Other examples were built for the East & West RR of Alabama, as #97 & 98 of 12/85, Canca RR as #188 of 7/91, and Utah Central as #236 of 10/95.  The CRM author believed that the latter was actually the ex. UC engine that ended as D&RGW 306.

The visually similar D&RG class 70s of 1887, later D&RGW class C-17, were built to drawing 10, #99-104 in 5/87.  I've no idea of exactly how drawings 9 and 10 differed, but note that no other engines were built to this class and drawing. 

Another similar and well documented design, the D&RGW's  class C-18,  consisted of six of the 10 Florence & Cripple Creek consolidations, all built to 10-26-E drawing 18, from 7/95 to 3/97.  Two additional of drawing 18 were built for the Silverton Northern in 4/04 and 4/06, both of which last saw service during WWII on the White Pass & Yukon.  Of these, D&RGW 315 has been restored to operation and is now based in Silverton.

So between the other 10-26-E drawing 9 locomotives, and the similar but much better documented locomotives of drawings 10 and 18, there is actually quite a lot of examples for study, including one survivor. 

John Stutz


Nigel Phillips
 

I had a look at the North Western Coal and Navigation Company, another part of the Galt narrow gauge system in southern Alberta. The library uses North Western and Northwestern in its index. Road numbers 1-6 in 1884, 8-18D, road number 7 in 1887, 8-18C (2-6-0). Many pages for 1884 at the library were not scanned properly, unfortunately, including the 1884 order. Are these the Consolidations? D says they are. If so they would have moved around pretty fast from the NWC&NC to Utah to the D&RGW, as they were built in 1884 and arrived in 1886. Unless there were earlier 2-8-0s. Unlikely though, the narrow gauge railway from Lethbridge to Dunmore was only opened in October 1885. Perhaps they were not required or were NFFIU and immediately sold on. Maybe I can use a D&RGW Consolidation suitably re-lettered. Better start saving up in that case.


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:57 AM Nigel Phillips via groups.io <nigelp18000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks John.

I am left  wondering where the other locomotives came from. One of the other associated Companies? The information below will help enormously. Book ordered. More research.

On Monday, March 1, 2021, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Nigel

For Canadian narrow gauge lines, the starting point is Omar Lavallee's "Narrow Gauge Railways of Canada" (1972).  This has brief histories, detailed locomotive rosters, line side photographs, and sketches of locomotives for most lines.  I attache his sketch of the AR&C's heavy Moguls.

Regarding the Consolidations, Lavallee records that two went via the Utah Central to the Rio Grand Western, and ultimately to the D&RGW.  The Colorado Railroad Museum's "Locomotives of the Rio Grande" (1980) indicates that the RGW converted two of the ex UC 2-8-0s to standard gauge in 1900, which on merger became D&RG 554 and 555.  These were converted back to NG in 1918, and after the D&RGW renumbering of 1924, were classified as C-17 #305 and 306, dismantled in '27 and '35 respectively. 

Regarding similar Consolidations, the BLW Class List shows all seven AR&C delivered in July 1890 as class 10-26-E, drawing 9, #155-161. Class AND drawing number identifies the specific design, although auxiliary fittings can vary greatly between orders, while the locomotive numbers are sequential within the class.  Class 10-26-E reached drawing 64 and locomotive #472 by 8/26, the last entry in my copy.

Design 10-26-E drawing 9 had first been built for the Hancock and & Calumet, with deliveries of #95 & 96 in 9/85, #105 in 7/87, #128 in 1/89, #172 in 1/91, and #173 in 2/91.  The latter was actually for the closely associated Mineral Range.  Two of these ended up on the North Shore, later the North Western Pacific, in maintenance service on a commuter lline north of San Francisco Bay.  Other examples were built for the East & West RR of Alabama, as #97 & 98 of 12/85, Canca RR as #188 of 7/91, and Utah Central as #236 of 10/95.  The CRM author believed that the latter was actually the ex. UC engine that ended as D&RGW 306.

The visually similar D&RG class 70s of 1887, later D&RGW class C-17, were built to drawing 10, #99-104 in 5/87.  I've no idea of exactly how drawings 9 and 10 differed, but note that no other engines were built to this class and drawing. 

Another similar and well documented design, the D&RGW's  class C-18,  consisted of six of the 10 Florence & Cripple Creek consolidations, all built to 10-26-E drawing 18, from 7/95 to 3/97.  Two additional of drawing 18 were built for the Silverton Northern in 4/04 and 4/06, both of which last saw service during WWII on the White Pass & Yukon.  Of these, D&RGW 315 has been restored to operation and is now based in Silverton.

So between the other 10-26-E drawing 9 locomotives, and the similar but much better documented locomotives of drawings 10 and 18, there is actually quite a lot of examples for study, including one survivor. 

John Stutz


Nigel Phillips
 

Found them. Built 1890 for the Alberta Coal and Railway Company (another Galt line). 7 in the class. 10-26E. Still getting used to the Bladwin classification. Apologies for the confusion, new to me. Numbered and lettered for the Great Falls and Canada Railway. Numbers 3 and 5 sold to the Utah Central in 1893 (according to steamlocomotives.com). Probably when the GF&CR started to go standard gauge and became a subsidiary of the Great Northern. Narrow gauge operations still continued around Lethbridge, which was dual gauged.


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 12:19 PM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:
I had a look at the North Western Coal and Navigation Company, another part of the Galt narrow gauge system in southern Alberta. The library uses North Western and Northwestern in its index. Road numbers 1-6 in 1884, 8-18D, road number 7 in 1887, 8-18C (2-6-0). Many pages for 1884 at the library were not scanned properly, unfortunately, including the 1884 order. Are these the Consolidations? D says they are. If so they would have moved around pretty fast from the NWC&NC to Utah to the D&RGW, as they were built in 1884 and arrived in 1886. Unless there were earlier 2-8-0s. Unlikely though, the narrow gauge railway from Lethbridge to Dunmore was only opened in October 1885. Perhaps they were not required or were NFFIU and immediately sold on. Maybe I can use a D&RGW Consolidation suitably re-lettered. Better start saving up in that case.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:57 AM Nigel Phillips via groups.io <nigelp18000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks John.

I am left  wondering where the other locomotives came from. One of the other associated Companies? The information below will help enormously. Book ordered. More research.

On Monday, March 1, 2021, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Nigel

For Canadian narrow gauge lines, the starting point is Omar Lavallee's "Narrow Gauge Railways of Canada" (1972).  This has brief histories, detailed locomotive rosters, line side photographs, and sketches of locomotives for most lines.  I attache his sketch of the AR&C's heavy Moguls.

Regarding the Consolidations, Lavallee records that two went via the Utah Central to the Rio Grand Western, and ultimately to the D&RGW.  The Colorado Railroad Museum's "Locomotives of the Rio Grande" (1980) indicates that the RGW converted two of the ex UC 2-8-0s to standard gauge in 1900, which on merger became D&RG 554 and 555.  These were converted back to NG in 1918, and after the D&RGW renumbering of 1924, were classified as C-17 #305 and 306, dismantled in '27 and '35 respectively. 

Regarding similar Consolidations, the BLW Class List shows all seven AR&C delivered in July 1890 as class 10-26-E, drawing 9, #155-161. Class AND drawing number identifies the specific design, although auxiliary fittings can vary greatly between orders, while the locomotive numbers are sequential within the class.  Class 10-26-E reached drawing 64 and locomotive #472 by 8/26, the last entry in my copy.

Design 10-26-E drawing 9 had first been built for the Hancock and & Calumet, with deliveries of #95 & 96 in 9/85, #105 in 7/87, #128 in 1/89, #172 in 1/91, and #173 in 2/91.  The latter was actually for the closely associated Mineral Range.  Two of these ended up on the North Shore, later the North Western Pacific, in maintenance service on a commuter lline north of San Francisco Bay.  Other examples were built for the East & West RR of Alabama, as #97 & 98 of 12/85, Canca RR as #188 of 7/91, and Utah Central as #236 of 10/95.  The CRM author believed that the latter was actually the ex. UC engine that ended as D&RGW 306.

The visually similar D&RG class 70s of 1887, later D&RGW class C-17, were built to drawing 10, #99-104 in 5/87.  I've no idea of exactly how drawings 9 and 10 differed, but note that no other engines were built to this class and drawing. 

Another similar and well documented design, the D&RGW's  class C-18,  consisted of six of the 10 Florence & Cripple Creek consolidations, all built to 10-26-E drawing 18, from 7/95 to 3/97.  Two additional of drawing 18 were built for the Silverton Northern in 4/04 and 4/06, both of which last saw service during WWII on the White Pass & Yukon.  Of these, D&RGW 315 has been restored to operation and is now based in Silverton.

So between the other 10-26-E drawing 9 locomotives, and the similar but much better documented locomotives of drawings 10 and 18, there is actually quite a lot of examples for study, including one survivor. 

John Stutz


kevin b
 

Hello Nigel:

Re:
I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? 

heard back from my friend.

this is a copy paste of what he had to say:

As far as I know, the DeGolyer Library at Southern Methodist University in Texas has a slug of Baldwin records, but I can't recall if they have the blueprints.

dunno if that'll help you or not.
good luck.
Kevin.


John Stutz
 

Nigel

I cannot help you much with non-Baldwin locomotives.

Much of Baldwin's records, but far from all, were saved by a single drawing office employee who picked through materials that were being thrown out. Most of what he saved ended up at the DeGolyer Library and is more or less accessible.  More so in recent decades as copies are put online.  Stanford University Library Special Collections has the Paint Style book, the Drawings Index, a Drawing Office Bible, the first 40 issues of the BLW Records of Recent Construction, and a few hundred drawings.  There may be other semi-public collections not known to me, but much of the narrow gauge material ended up in private hands, and may or may not survive. 

Regarding other North American builders, a number of their catalogues have been reproduced.  Porter has been well covered.  A set of 6 BLW catalogs, the combined 1889 and 1908 Porter catalogs, the 1897 Rogers catalog and the 1899 Brooks catalog are each available on CD from Vintage Literature Reproductions.  However their website is only marginally usable.  Look under transportation and machinery / railroad.  

Specialty Press of Ocean New Jersey has reproduced a number of BLW publications.  In 1969 Kratville Publications issued their "American Locomotive Company", a compilation of several ALCo publications of 1910-18.  Of particular interest are the 1910 Buenos Aires Expo and the 1918 Export Sales catalogues, with their emphasis on narrow gauge types and detailed descriptions of constructed examples.  The ALCo Historical Society should be able to help regarding the builders that grouped together to form ALCo.

Locomotives of the latter 19'th century were extensively covered by the technical press, often with excellent drawings provided by the builders.  These articles were periodically gathered by the publishers and reissued in bound volumes.  " Recent Locomotives - 1886", incorporating the ~50 locomotives of the 1883 edition and adding another 50 built since, Was reprinted by Glenwood in 1972.   The focus, o course, is on standard gauge engines but there are quite detailed drawings of 3' gauge  BLW and Brooks 4-4-0s, a Brooks 2-6-0, and a BLW 2-8-0.  It is notable that, while the Brooks engines used conventional between-frames fireboxes, the Baldwins have already advanced to over-frame fireboxes, with a low slab frame between the 4-4-0's drivers.  This allowed a 24 5/8" wide grate, compared to the Brooks' 18" width, a 37% increase, foreshadowing how NG firebox design would lead SG designs for a quarter century.  

For 1890's locomotives, search with "Modern Locomotives 1900" to find Google's online copy of " Modern Locomotives: Illustrations, Specifications and Details of Typical American and European Steam and Electric Locomotives".  Again the focus is on SG main line power, but there are quite a few exported NG locomotives.  Most examples are illustrated by a photograph and a standard list of about 50 dimensions, but there are many drawings, about a dozen NG.   On Demand Books claims to offer printed & bound versions of the Google scan for ~$20 (plus tax & shipping).  I have not yest seen a copy, but expect considerable reduction from the original page size.

John Stutz

On March 2, 2021 5:57 AM Nigel Phillips <nigelp18000@...> wrote:


Thanks John.

I am left  wondering where the other locomotives came from. One of the other associated Companies? The information below will help enormously. Book ordered. More research.


Nigel Phillips
 

Kevin,

Thanks. Been exploring the collection. Found various locomotives, next step is to see if they have the diagrams. Definitely not free! There is also the Smithsonian in DC, just down the road from me. I've also ordered the Canadian Narrow Gauge Railway book, should be here next week. 



On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, kevin b via groups.io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello Nigel:

Re:
I'm interested in the Moguls but have run into the usual problem of this gauge and scale, the scarcity of models. Can anybody point me to some plans/blueprints/diagrams with dimensions? 

heard back from my friend.

this is a copy paste of what he had to say:

As far as I know, the DeGolyer Library at Southern Methodist University in Texas has a slug of Baldwin records, but I can't recall if they have the blueprints.

dunno if that'll help you or not.
good luck.
Kevin.