1954 PFM United C-16 was K-27 revisited


Lee Gustafson
 

Was there any connection between the HOn3 Kemtron C-16 parts/kit and the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Does anyone have pictures of the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson 

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On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 8:37 AM, John Hutnick <johnhutnick@...> wrote:

What is the 1954 United C-16?


Earl Knoob
 

My copy of the Brown Book shows 1 United PFM C-16 built in 1955 - probably a pilot model.  The next C-16 model was not produced until 1970-71 by Westside.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 8:05 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: [HOn3] 1954 PFM United C-16 was K-27 revisited
 
Was there any connection between the HOn3 Kemtron C-16 parts/kit and the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Does anyone have pictures of the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson 

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 8:37 AM, John Hutnick <johnhutnick@...> wrote:

What is the 1954 United C-16?


John Stutz
 

Lee

Judging by several 1960's United models and a couple Kemtron kits, there was no connection beyond the common prototype and scale. 

The United models were basically made of plain and etched brass sheet stock, with turned domes and stack.   Castings were limited to parts not easily machined or fabricated: smoke box door and saddle, driver centers, and details like the air pumps.   The Kemtron models were mostly brass castings, still listed in successor PSC's catalog, with sheet brass limited to the boiler shell, cab roof, and tender body.  For example: Kemtron used cast and machined locomotive and tender frames, cast smoke box and cast cab walls, all of which were made of sheet stock in contemporary United models.

John Stutz

On June 8, 2022 7:05 AM Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...> wrote:

Was there any connection between the HOn3 Kemtron C-16 parts/kit and the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Does anyone have pictures of the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson 


Lee Gustafson
 

Earl,

Thank you. To continue the thread does anyone have photos of that pilot model or know it’s disposition? Additional question the late Len Madsen had an HOn3 Kemtron C-16 #268 in the bumble bee paint scheme built by the late John Carruthers does anyone know of the disposition of this model? As always thanks in advance.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 11:25 AM, Earl Knoob <earlk489@...> wrote:

My copy of the Brown Book shows 1 United PFM C-16 built in 1955 - probably a pilot model.  The next C-16 model was not produced until 1970-71 by Westside.

From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 8:05 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: [HOn3] 1954 PFM United C-16 was K-27 revisited
 
Was there any connection between the HOn3 Kemtron C-16 parts/kit and the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Does anyone have pictures of the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson 

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 8:37 AM, John Hutnick <johnhutnick@...> wrote:

What is the 1954 United C-16?


Lee Gustafson
 

John,

Thank. Great information.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022, 11:49 AM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

Judging by several 1960's United models and a couple Kemtron kits, there was no connection beyond the common prototype and scale. 

The United models were basically made of plain and etched brass sheet stock, with turned domes and stack.   Castings were limited to parts not easily machined or fabricated: smoke box door and saddle, driver centers, and details like the air pumps.   The Kemtron models were mostly brass castings, still listed in successor PSC's catalog, with sheet brass limited to the boiler shell, cab roof, and tender body.  For example: Kemtron used cast and machined locomotive and tender frames, cast smoke box and cast cab walls, all of which were made of sheet stock in contemporary United models.

John Stutz
On June 8, 2022 7:05 AM Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...> wrote:

Was there any connection between the HOn3 Kemtron C-16 parts/kit and the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Does anyone have pictures of the 1954 PFM/United C-16? Thanks in advance.

Lee Gustafson 


Mark Kasprowicz
 

John,

I'd agree. It looks the Kemtron C-16 by-passed United totally evidenced by the fact that United never made a C-16. As Earl states the Brown book list 1 C-16 made in 1955 but the previous year a K-28 appears, again just one being made. That went into production in '55, a total of 48 being made that year, more in following years. I believe one of the earlier ones passed though my hands some years ago The tender wrap was made up of two side. Each side coming from the water legs to a point in the middle of the back where they were joined in a visible seam. I still have the wrap somewhere. But I think you're right that the first C-16's were Kemtron and their csstings etc went onto PSC.

I don't think I am giving anything away here but as Blackstone was going through the C-19 design stages a good deal of attention also was given to the commonality of parts between it and other C-Class D&RG and RGS locomotives. I remember walking into the ex-Fed's office that Jeff and Jessica moved into and saw photos of all C-Class locos, not just the 19's, pinned up all over the place. Such a pity - the C-16 is the perfect Colorado tea kettle - yes, even more than the 315 /425!!

Mark K


Mike Conder
 

I agree, Mark, the C-16 would have been wonderful to get from Blackstone.  But it sounds like they may have fallen into thatvold trap of letting the "perfect" killed the"good enough".  I heard (read "rumor") that they thought there were too many prototypes with different details, both in loco number and in year modeled.  

Wish they would have just done a couple of basics with add-on details specific to a loco and era ... that could have provided C&S and other lines with a model that excellently and sounded great.  Something like they did with the "early" C-19.  I daresay that they may have outsold the K-27's and C-19's!

Mike C
--
Mike Conder


Mark Lewis
 

Mike, Mark and All,

Maybe we are all missing the obvious, when thinking of not having the C16's from Blackstone.
Maybe, just maybe, Blackstone...all along...planned/plans to bring to market a C16 HOn3 locomotive.......after the K28/36 locomotives are made available for sale. 😱
Be still my heart, oh happy days....OR NOT.🤯

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.
(And waiting for Anything in HOn3 from Blackstone)


Mark Kasprowicz
 

Sadly Mark. if BS ever had a C-16 in their plans other than to speculate whether there was any commonality in dimensions between the D&RGW C-classes it was light years away. It was an exercise and went no further. So no need for a Nitro tablet under the tongue at this point.
I'm curious to know how the United (Atlas Maufacturing)/ PFM got involved in HOn3. The partnership appears to have kick started the thing off in the mid 50's.