Blackstone K-27


Mark Kasprowicz
 

The first run of K-27 was affected by over oiling of the motor. In many cases it was possible to burn the oil off by applying 12 volts DC to the motor via the two outer pins of the drawbar connector. Not always a permanent cure and repeating the treatment is sometimes needed. Worst cases need the motor replaced and they are no longer available from Blackstone/ Soundtraxx.
The topic of a replacement motor came up on the Repower and Regear groups but no one has come up with a solution. One of the difficulties is that the small motor fits tightly into a cradle which is part of the underside of the boiler, and there are no replacements with a similar shape. Another is that the shaft must be long enough to be able to fit the chuff sync wheel within the opto sensor.
I managed to fit a Mashima 1220 into the cradle of one but it's not really powerful enough.
So a couple of thoughts. Has anyone pulled the motor out of the cradle and ran it at an angle to allow the oil to escape. Or immersed it a solvent that might thin the oil but not damage the windings. The need of the chuff sensor disappears if you replace the decoder with a TSU2, which also frees up two more pins on the drawbar connector for marker and cab lights. Another bonus is that the original decoder and breakout board were big, the TSU2 is much smaller so that adding a stay alive and an iPhone speaker was quite easy. But it still doesn't solve the motor problem. I have run out of ideas.

Mark K


Jim Marlett
 

Since I have several first run non-runners, I have thought about running a solvent through the motors, but I haven’t been brave enough to try. I have a can of electronics cleaner, but the fear of completely ruining the motor has kept me from trying that approach, especially when I haven’t even tried letting the magic smoke out yet. My plan was to skip trying to do the 12 volt to the motor fix and just install a new assembly from Blackstone, but that was just as they ran out of replacements. They were expecting more, but it looks like that has turned into another K-36 type issue. My guess is that the over-oiling gets lube on the commutator and creates enough resistance that the decoder senses trouble and shuts things down. My fear with solvents is removing insulation somewhere unexpected or just moving the oil all over the place. I guess I should just get off my lazy butt and try letting the magic smoke out.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Dec 15, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

The first run of K-27 was affected by over oiling of the motor. In many cases it was possible to burn the oil off by applying 12 volts DC to the motor via the two outer pins of the drawbar connector. Not always a permanent cure and repeating the treatment is sometimes needed. Worst cases need the motor replaced and they are no longer available from Blackstone/ Soundtraxx.
The topic of a replacement motor came up on the Repower and Regear groups but no one has come up with a solution. One of the difficulties is that the small motor fits tightly into a cradle which is part of the underside of the boiler, and there are no replacements with a similar shape. Another is that the shaft must be long enough to be able to fit the chuff sync wheel within the opto sensor.
I managed to fit a Mashima 1220 into the cradle of one but it's not really powerful enough.
So a couple of thoughts. Has anyone pulled the motor out of the cradle and ran it at an angle to allow the oil to escape. Or immersed it a solvent that might thin the oil but not damage the windings. The need of the chuff sensor disappears if you replace the decoder with a TSU2, which also frees up two more pins on the drawbar connector for marker and cab lights. Another bonus is that the original decoder and breakout board were big, the TSU2 is much smaller so that adding a stay alive and an iPhone speaker was quite easy. But it still doesn't solve the motor problem. I have run out of ideas.

Mark K


Bill Lugg
 

I don't have one of these things, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but...

If one was to acquire one of the Minebea 10 mm motors (I assume the 15 mm motors are too big), would it fit in the cradle or could a new cradle be designed and 3D printed to hold it?

Just a thought from an ignorant soul.

Bill Lugg

On 12/15/20 1:10 AM, Mark Kasprowicz wrote:
The first run of K-27 was affected by over oiling of the motor. In many cases it was possible to burn the oil off by applying 12 volts DC to the motor via the two outer pins of the drawbar connector. Not always a permanent cure and repeating the treatment is sometimes needed. Worst cases need the motor replaced and they are no longer available from Blackstone/ Soundtraxx.
The topic of a replacement motor came up on the Repower and Regear groups but no one has come up with a solution. One of the difficulties is that the small motor fits tightly into a cradle which is part of the underside of the boiler, and there are no replacements with a similar shape. Another is that the shaft must be long enough to be able to fit the chuff sync wheel within the opto sensor.
I managed to fit a Mashima 1220 into the cradle of one but it's not really powerful enough.
So a couple of thoughts. Has anyone pulled the motor out of the cradle and ran it at an angle to allow the oil to escape. Or immersed it a solvent that might thin the oil but not damage the windings. The need of the chuff sensor disappears if you replace the decoder with a TSU2, which also frees up two more pins on the drawbar connector for marker and cab lights. Another bonus is that the original decoder and breakout board were big, the TSU2 is much smaller so that adding a stay alive and an iPhone speaker was quite easy. But it still doesn't solve the motor problem. I have run out of ideas.

Mark K


Mick Moignard
 

Years ago I took the motor of one of these overoiled K-27s apart.  I was very surprised to find a 3-pole motor.  The issue was the standard one of oil on the commutator and brushgear turning sludge, and it could be removed by solvent in the motor. If the motor is far enough gone that it won't run then a squirt of something can't do any more harm. I would strongly recommend removing the motor from the model before trying it, and try and get it running as you do the squirting.

The issue as I heard it from the actual Blackstone horse's (at the time) mouth was that the motors were deemed at the factory to be a little noisy, and someone was delegated at the factory to lubricate them. Which he did, generously and in thru the holes on the end of the motor rather than just the bearings which he was being expected and told to do,  Nobody in the factory picked that up and it wasn't known to be an issue with much of the run until after the locos had been thru Durango and gone out to dealers. Only when the returns started to happen plus stories starting on groups like this one was the issue realised in Durango, and someone came up with the sparking (12vDC on the two outer drawbar pins) procedure.   Enquiries back to the factory then elicted the truth about the cause.

You can tell a 1st run loco by the multicoloured braided wires in the drawbar.   2nd and later run locos have plain black wires and don't have the oiling issue. Not all of the 1st run ones have the issue either, and of those that do, it wasn't always terminal.  Many were successfully recovered by the "sparking" routine - possibly after several gos - but quite a few customers just sent the loco back once they found it wasn't working right. The issue really only affected DCC locos as the DC ones basically sparked themselves if run flat out.     I have 4 1st run models; one failed completely (the one I took apart) after innumerable sparkings and needed a new motor, and I ordered several.  In another I changed  the motor after a few sparkings as I had the new one to and.  The other two never showed the issue at all and still have the original motor in use today.

Mick
______________________________________________________________________
Mick Moignard
Specialising in DCC Sound
p: +44 7774 652504
e:
mick@...
skype: mickmoignard
The week may start M,T but it always ends up WTF!


Ric Case
 

Gents I have one that still occasionally will just stop during an operating session, I will remove it from service and replace it with another locomotive! After the session when everyone has left Iplace it back in service with a long drag (25) cars and run it again at full speed around the layout a couple of times to burn off the oil again!  It runs great for a few more months then because of time between sessions it will act up again! 
All in all I have 19 Blackstone locomotives 9 K.27! 10 (C-19 ) wish
They would have done a EBT loco ! 
Just glad to have picked up the ones I have!


Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On Dec 15, 2020, at 10:50 AM, Mick Moignard <mick@...> wrote:

Years ago I took the motor of one of these overoiled K-27s apart.  I was very surprised to find a 3-pole motor.  The issue was the standard one of oil on the commutator and brushgear turning sludge, and it could be removed by solvent in the motor. If the motor is far enough gone that it won't run then a squirt of something can't do any more harm. I would strongly recommend removing the motor from the model before trying it, and try and get it running as you do the squirting.

The issue as I heard it from the actual Blackstone horse's (at the time) mouth was that the motors were deemed at the factory to be a little noisy, and someone was delegated at the factory to lubricate them. Which he did, generously and in thru the holes on the end of the motor rather than just the bearings which he was being expected and told to do,  Nobody in the factory picked that up and it wasn't known to be an issue with much of the run until after the locos had been thru Durango and gone out to dealers. Only when the returns started to happen plus stories starting on groups like this one was the issue realised in Durango, and someone came up with the sparking (12vDC on the two outer drawbar pins) procedure.   Enquiries back to the factory then elicted the truth about the cause.

You can tell a 1st run loco by the multicoloured braided wires in the drawbar.   2nd and later run locos have plain black wires and don't have the oiling issue. Not all of the 1st run ones have the issue either, and of those that do, it wasn't always terminal.  Many were successfully recovered by the "sparking" routine - possibly after several gos - but quite a few customers just sent the loco back once they found it wasn't working right. The issue really only affected DCC locos as the DC ones basically sparked themselves if run flat out.     I have 4 1st run models; one failed completely (the one I took apart) after innumerable sparkings and needed a new motor, and I ordered several.  In another I changed  the motor after a few sparkings as I had the new one to and.  The other two never showed the issue at all and still have the original motor in use today.

Mick
______________________________________________________________________
Mick Moignard
Specialising in DCC Sound
p: +44 7774 652504
e:
mick@...
skype: mickmoignard
The week may start M,T but it always ends up WTF!


Scott
 

Might try some Blue shower on the motor.  We used it to clean contacters and such as it is a non flammable degreaser that dries really quick and doesn't leave a residue.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005T7YBGS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_O0r2FbX70R9CX

Scott McDonald


Jim Marlett
 

Will it leave the insulation on the wires in the motor windings?

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Dec 15, 2020, at 2:37 PM, Scott <repairman87@...> wrote:

Might try some Blue shower on the motor.  We used it to clean contacters and such as it is a non flammable degreaser that dries really quick and doesn't leave a residue.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005T7YBGS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_O0r2FbX70R9CX

Scott McDonald


Alec Herman
 

My K-27 is from the first run. It had a problem motor. A few times I hooked up the motor to a DC throttle. But anytime the model sat still for a few days, it would go back to not workIng.  It got really annoying. So when I tore it apart to swap the decoder, I hooked the motor straight to a DC throttle again. But this time I left it hooked to the DC throttle for about week. I would turn the throttle up and let some lube cook off, then turn it off to rest and let the oil pool again. After a few hours, overnight, or whenever it was convenient during that week, I’d turn it back on for a minute or two and burn off the lube again. Now it runs great and I have not had to do it again, even if it sits for an extended period of time. 


Mark Kasprowicz
 

That is what I was thinking of as well. I was concernd about it over heating or seizing as I was going to let it run constantly for 24 hours, but your suggestion sems more sensible. Did it smoke everytime until you'd burnt off all the oil?

Mark K
Oxon England.


Mike Conder
 

Excellent info Mick, great to know how to tell the difference between the 1st & 2nd runs.

Mike Conder


Jim Marlett
 

The Blackstone site has models identified by release dates. The part number is on the box. Also, you can make a good guess by locomotive number. Here is a link to help get you to the right place. Click the year of interest.

http://blackstonemodels.com/loco/k27/k27previous.php

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Dec 16, 2020, at 1:33 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Excellent info Mick, great to know how to tell the difference between the 1st & 2nd runs.

Mike Conder


Jim Marlett
 

I wish you could pull back an email. I answered a question that wasn’t asked. I feel dumb.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On Dec 16, 2020, at 2:15 PM, James Marlett <jmarlett@...> wrote:

The Blackstone site has models identified by release dates. The part number is on the box. Also, you can make a good guess by locomotive number. Here is a link to help get you to the right place. Click the year of interest.



Mike Conder
 

Don’t feel dumb, that was my exact question before I  read Mick’s note.  Many thanks for that info about loco numbers, I would not have thought of that.

Mike Conder

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 1:17 PM Jim Marlett <jmarlett@...> wrote:
I wish you could pull back an email. I answered a question that wasn’t asked. I feel dumb.

On Dec 16, 2020, at 2:15 PM, James Marlett <jmarlett@...> wrote:

The Blackstone site has models identified by release dates. The part number is on the box. Also, you can make a good guess by locomotive number. Here is a link to help get you to the right place. Click the year of interest.



Alec Herman
 

At the end it quit smoking. I think I kept doing it an extra day just to be sure.  You will also see an improvement on how well the motor starts spinning when you first apply power.