Prototype?


Bruce
 

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Wayne
 

The trucks have the body bolsters typical of the D&RGW so I would go with that.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?



--
Wayne Taylor


John
 

Looks like the DRG W 2 car set PFM United did
John Peckham


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 7:25 AM, Wayne
<waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:
The trucks have the body bolsters typical of the D&RGW so I would go with that.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?



--
Wayne Taylor


tonyk537
 

The top one looks like the Parlor car from their 5 car set.


Bruce
 

They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.


Wayne
 

That's part of the 5 car set:  2 of 5 and 5 of 5.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 11:15 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.



--
Wayne Taylor


Lee Gustafson
 

I don’t know what the long first numbers are but I think what look like the last are 2 of 5 and 5 of 5 which would indicate they were part of a 5 car PFM set.

Lee Gustafson 


On Oct 11, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


That's part of the 5 car set:  2 of 5 and 5 of 5.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 11:15 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.
<20201011_113906~2.jpg>



--
Wayne Taylor


Wayne
 

Here is the full 5 car set:  PFM United 5 Car Set


Earl Knoob
 

The bottom car appears to be combine 215, later car 212.

The upper car is indeed a parlor car, but an earlier version (pre 1937) before vestibules were added.  It matches the side profile of the parlor-buffet car "Chama", but is one window short, and the Chama did not have a fancy platform railing.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Bruce <in2trains@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 8:18 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?
 
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Bruce Bowie
 

Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Russ Norris
 

You got a GREAT deal, Bruce!  A couple of years ago, at a train show,I picked up a couple of brass coaches for $50 each.  There were three available from an estate sale.  For some dumb reason I didn't buy all three -- I guess I was worried how to explain $150 price for three cars to my wife.  The upside is that they were painted and lettered for the EBT.  They even came with seats and passengers!  The coaches were numbered for EBT #5 and #6.  When I got them home I looked those numbers up in R&K.  Turns out that both those numbers were on the 1916 roster.  Number 5 was 36-8 and seated 43.  It was reclassified as a miner's coach and sold in 1953 to the Shenandoah Central, which sold it to the Tweetsie.  When the book was published it was still in use.  Number 6 is listed as 35 feet long seating 35.  It was retired in 1934.  My reaction to all that is "close enough!"  The cars were probably D&RGW prototypes, but they look pretty good trailing #14 with combine #14 on the rear!  And they actually run very well.  I should have bought the third one.

Russ


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 4:26 PM Bruce Bowie <buybruce@...> wrote:
Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Dale Buxton
 

These are from a 5 car D&RGW set PFM imported in the 1960’s. What you have are the Combine and Parlor cars. The set also came with a Baggage, Coach and Sleeper. These complete sets are quite rare. You got a very good deal here. I have recently seen the complete mint condition set with an asking price of $1500.00.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 15:39 Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...> wrote:
You got a GREAT deal, Bruce!  A couple of years ago, at a train show,I picked up a couple of brass coaches for $50 each.  There were three available from an estate sale.  For some dumb reason I didn't buy all three -- I guess I was worried how to explain $150 price for three cars to my wife.  The upside is that they were painted and lettered for the EBT.  They even came with seats and passengers!  The coaches were numbered for EBT #5 and #6.  When I got them home I looked those numbers up in R&K.  Turns out that both those numbers were on the 1916 roster.  Number 5 was 36-8 and seated 43.  It was reclassified as a miner's coach and sold in 1953 to the Shenandoah Central, which sold it to the Tweetsie.  When the book was published it was still in use.  Number 6 is listed as 35 feet long seating 35.  It was retired in 1934.  My reaction to all that is "close enough!"  The cars were probably D&RGW prototypes, but they look pretty good trailing #14 with combine #14 on the rear!  And they actually run very well.  I should have bought the third one.

Russ

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 4:26 PM Bruce Bowie <buybruce@...> wrote:
Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Bruce Bowie
 

They look very nice Russ.  My two will likely be one of my early attempts at painting and lettering on brass.


Bruce Bowie
419-602-3584


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 5:39 PM Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...> wrote:
You got a GREAT deal, Bruce!  A couple of years ago, at a train show,I picked up a couple of brass coaches for $50 each.  There were three available from an estate sale.  For some dumb reason I didn't buy all three -- I guess I was worried how to explain $150 price for three cars to my wife.  The upside is that they were painted and lettered for the EBT.  They even came with seats and passengers!  The coaches were numbered for EBT #5 and #6.  When I got them home I looked those numbers up in R&K.  Turns out that both those numbers were on the 1916 roster.  Number 5 was 36-8 and seated 43.  It was reclassified as a miner's coach and sold in 1953 to the Shenandoah Central, which sold it to the Tweetsie.  When the book was published it was still in use.  Number 6 is listed as 35 feet long seating 35.  It was retired in 1934.  My reaction to all that is "close enough!"  The cars were probably D&RGW prototypes, but they look pretty good trailing #14 with combine #14 on the rear!  And they actually run very well.  I should have bought the third one.

Russ

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 4:26 PM Bruce Bowie <buybruce@...> wrote:
Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited

I have a couple of those cars pictured in the five car set on Ebay but in a different box. At the same time there is another pair of passenger cars on Ebay different to mine but the same as two others in the 5 car set. The pairs are in the same style of box, black not dark blue. So were the original five car sets broken up for whatever reason and repackaged and is this the reason why Bruce just got hold of a pair? The absence of an RPO in the five car set might be an indication of how early this set was.

Mark K
Oxon England.


Climax@...
 

I personally think that most people pull 3 car trains due to limits on their Railroads and the other two cars either sit in a box or get sold off.
DAve

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Kasprowicz
Sent: Oct 12, 2020 12:18 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Prototype?

I have a couple of those cars pictured in the five car set on Ebay but in a different box. At the same time there is another pair of passenger cars on Ebay similar different to mine but the same as the ones in the 5 car set. The pairs are in the same style of box, black not dark blue. So were the original five car sets broken up for whatever reason and repackaged and is this the reason why Bruace just got hold of a pair?

Mark K
Oxon England.


John
 

They were also sold in 2 car sets. 
I have a pair in the original box somewhere
John Peckham


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:25 AM, Mark Kasprowicz
<mark@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I have a couple of those cars pictured in the five car set on Ebay but in a different box. At the same time there is another pair of passenger cars on Ebay different to mine but the same as two others in the 5 car set. The pairs are in the same style of box, black not dark blue. So were the original five car sets broken up for whatever reason and repackaged and is this the reason why Bruce just got hold of a pair? The absence of an RPO in the five car set might be an indication of how early this set was.

Mark K
Oxon England.


Mark Kasprowicz
 

Rubbish. These are in their own, labelled twp car boxes.
Mark K


Dale Buxton
 

There was a two car set imported by PFM in the late '70's made by Samhongsa. A coach and combine. Higher detail with Grandt Line last wax and Tomalco castings. The coaches were also sold separately. The Pagosa Springs combine was also sold at this time. I've never seen a two car set of the early cars from United. I would love to see some documentation on those.

Dlae Buxton 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:48 AM John via groups.io <spaceway1999=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
They were also sold in 2 car sets. 
I have a pair in the original box somewhere
John Peckham


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:25 AM, Mark Kasprowicz
<mark@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I have a couple of those cars pictured in the five car set on Ebay but in a different box. At the same time there is another pair of passenger cars on Ebay different to mine but the same as two others in the 5 car set. The pairs are in the same style of box, black not dark blue. So were the original five car sets broken up for whatever reason and repackaged and is this the reason why Bruce just got hold of a pair? The absence of an RPO in the five car set might be an indication of how early this set was.

Mark K
Oxon England.


Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

It's a wise old proverb from the earliest days of brass not to identify a model solely  by the box it came in on the secondary market.  Just watch the offerings on EBay for a couple of weeks if you doubt this wisdom.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 12, 2020 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Prototype?

There was a two car set imported by PFM in the late '70's made by Samhongsa. A coach and combine. Higher detail with Grandt Line last wax and Tomalco castings. The coaches were also sold separately. The Pagosa Springs combine was also sold at this time. I've never seen a two car set of the early cars from United. I would love to see some documentation on those.

Dlae Buxton 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:48 AM John via groups.io <spaceway1999=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
They were also sold in 2 car sets. 
I have a pair in the original box somewhere
John Peckham


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:25 AM, Mark Kasprowicz
<mark@...> wrote:
[Edited Message Follows]
I have a couple of those cars pictured in the five car set on Ebay but in a different box. At the same time there is another pair of passenger cars on Ebay different to mine but the same as two others in the 5 car set. The pairs are in the same style of box, black not dark blue. So were the original five car sets broken up for whatever reason and repackaged and is this the reason why Bruce just got hold of a pair? The absence of an RPO in the five car set might be an indication of how early this set was.

Mark K
Oxon England.