K-36 #487 in HOn3 - Headlight?


Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
 

Hi again,

  So my current project for this Westside model is to install LEDs for the headlight and
backup light.  The tender is no problem and is ready to be installed.  
 
  And I sort of know what I want to do (intend) for the headlight ... but due to the way
this model is constructed I wanted to check with the members of this group to get
confirmation of my approach.

 There is a picture of this model in the photos section of this group ...

  ===> https://groups.io/g/HOn3/photo/74795/0?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

    What I intend to do is to drill a hole thru the back of the headlight casting,
  then another hole that goes down thru the headlight bracket but stays 
  outside (in front of) of the smoke box cover, and finally a 3rd hole that 
  goes thru the smoke box cover to get the wires connected to the 
  decoder (inside the boiler).

  Ordinarily I'd just "go for it".  But due to the plow on this model -
which affects access to the smoke box cover ... and due to how
much more difficult it is to take the shell on and off of this model
that I'm used to (the valve gear is not mounted to the frame it is
a combination of both mounted to the frame and to the boiler) ...
I thought I'd ask here since someone has already done one of
these.

  The only alternative would be to go down thru the top of the
smoke box right behind the headlight - which is simpler but
pretty much prevents any future disassembly should I not
get it right the first time or goof and blow the LED.
                                                                                       - Jim B.

P.S. I am very familiar with using LEDs for my locos and don't
       need any help on that score.  Yes, this loco is close to the
       point where it will get DCC.

 


Dale Buxton
 

The way I see it. From a machanical point of view. The center plow tie rod precludes going down though the headlight platform and then into the boiler front. Add to this that the boiler front is coining. So this part is quite thick. Also, due the coining process the boiler front has been made very hard and would be more difficult to drill. So that approach on this model, for me is just out of the question. So your only choice (IMHO) is to drill a hole half way between (more or less) the boiler front and the stack casting. If you get TOO close to the lip one the boiler front coining that recesses into the smokebox shell. The drill will hit the harder brass of the boiler front coining and try to wander. Which will in the end cause the drill to hog out the hole bigger around than you originally intended. Been there, done that! With all the equipment clutter on this part of this particular model. A longer wiring lead will be scarcely noticeable.

If you haven't already done so. I would go to Ebay and order some ultra-small, pre wired LED's that are wired with "Litz Wire". Litz Wire is super small diameter, Teflon coated and stranded. It can also come color coded to ease the wiring process. Being as these LED's are pre wired. They are my new go to LED's for model lighting!

DaleBuxton 


lloyd lehrer
 

Dale, do you have a manufacturer you are happy with on the litz wire led's?

lloyd lehrer, (310)951-9097

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018, 12:01 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
The way I see it. From a machanical point of view. The center plow tie rod precludes going down though the headlight platform and then into the boiler front. Add to this that the boiler front is coining. So this part is quite thick. Also, due the coining process the boiler front has been made very hard and would be more difficult to drill. So that approach on this model, for me is just out of the question. So your only choice (IMHO) is to drill a hole half way between (more or less) the boiler front and the stack casting. If you get TOO close to the lip one the boiler front coining that recesses into the smokebox shell. The drill will hit the harder brass of the boiler front coining and try to wander. Which will in the end cause the drill to hog out the hole bigger around than you originally intended. Been there, done that! With all the equipment clutter on this part of this particular model. A longer wiring lead will be scarcely noticeable.

If you haven't already done so. I would go to Ebay and order some ultra-small, pre wired LED's that are wired with "Litz Wire". Litz Wire is super small diameter, Teflon coated and stranded. It can also come color coded to ease the wiring process. Being as these LED's are pre wired. They are my new go to LED's for model lighting!

DaleBuxton 


--
lloyd lehrer


Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
 

Lloyd,
  I've been very happy with LEDBaron.  But I've also ordered SMD LEDs out of the
far east and been happy with those - and they are -much- less expensive.
                                                                                                                        - Jim B.


Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
 

Dale,
  I have considered all of what you pointed out.  I've been successful drilling thru coined brass so I'm 
not likely to let that slow me down (much) ... other than it slows down the drilling process.
  I am still reluctant to go down thru the top of the smoke box.  I've done this many times before -
on models where the platform is mounted to the smokebox (and not the cover).  On this model
the headlight platform is mounted to the smoke box cover - so if I route the wires from the
headlight thru the top of the smoke box - it essentially makes the smokebox cover "forever
unremovable" ... without replacing the wiring every time it is opened.
  But the way the plow supports are mounted makes that sort of "given" any way ... *Sigh*.
I truly hate installing lighting (or anything else electronic) in a way that it can't be reworked.
For locos that have the headlight mounted to the smoke box cover my standard practice
is to run the wires thru, mount the resistor on the back of the cover, and then run the wires
back thru the boiler to the decoder ... with enough extra wire inside the boiler that I can redo
it at least once without having to splice in more wire (just cut and splice).  I do this mostly so
that I can replace the LED itself ... should I do something dumb and blow it.
                                                                                                                             - Jim B.


Dale Buxton
 

I have no favored LED manufacturer. China is the worlds largest maker of SMT LED’s. I get golden white ones with red and black leads.  

So so if you put extra wire on the end of the LED’s. Why not put some micro connectors in the middle of those wiring leads? I do that to all my lighting installs now. It makes disassembly a lot easier in the long run.

Dale Buxton


Dale Buxton
 

I’ve seen installs where someone attached the LED to a micro connector and then the micro connector was attached to the inside back of the smoke box cover. Would that work?

Dale Buxton


Dale Buxton
 

Something else I do is peel some of the foil off of the right diameter MV lense
and then I super glue my LED to that opening in the foil. The reflector effect makes the tiniest LED throw more concentrated light.

Dale Buxton


Mark Kasprowicz
 

I've not said much because while I have done 4 of these it was a while ago and I'm getting CRS. I tend to strip locos right down so access limitation due to things like plows is not an issue. If it were, I would certainly go through the smokebox (hides the wire better) but I would drill from the top of the light housing through to the bottom - IIRC there is a screw holding the casing to the bracket but I might be thinking of something else (I'm in Durango and the four ladies are back in England). Just check you clear it if its there. Also make sure the headlight is supported when drilling, they have a tendancy to fall off when drilled. Then another hole right under the bracket and you're there. I remove the boiler weight before feeding the wires. Or you can use a stiff brass or phosphor bronze wire, solder the LED leads to it and feed it thru.

For lenses I did what Dale did but then I discovered that a fellow countryman, Mick Moignard, sells FLAT lazer cut lenses in vrious diameters which look much better than MV's which are domed - the prototypes where flat. I leave the inside of the light housing brass, glue the LED in at the back with Eileens, and although LED light is Very directional, it looks nice as it picks up a bit of the brass color. My LEDs come from the LED Baron, I bought 500 loose warm and sunny whites (cheap as chips) in 0603 format and am still working though them. I use 0402's for markers.

I do not use connectors inside the boiler, there's usually enough slack in the wiring created by the frame and body needing to be apart during installation. Just make sure the LED wires don't end up meshing in the gears by putting some shrink wrap over them in the danger zones.

Mark K


Mick Moignard
 

I’d go thru the bottom of the bracket into the headlight, just drill a 1mm hole beside the plot bracket and angles do slightly inwards.  A second hole under the bracket into the front.  Or, alternatively, one hole flanges downwards thru the bottom rear of the headlight down thru the bracket and s/box front.  But as Mark says, it might all come apart.  The one thing I would never do is go thru the back of the headlight casting and then thru the smoke box top.  Nasty, nasty, nasty.  I’ve repaired plenty of locos where someone else, even the manufacturer, has make this horrible error of judgement.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.


Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited

I agree, ordinarily I drill through the underside of the bracket, but if you don't want to take the thing apart.... Oddly I found a prototype for the 'drill through the back of the casing' thing but of course the wire didn't go inside the boiler. Cannot remember where exactly but it surprised me.
Mark K


Joseph Melhorn
 

Hi Dale,

I’ve been following this thread and you mentioned micro connectors. Do you have a P/N, a link or manufacturers info on the ones you use? I found some Mill-Max  50 pin .050 (1,27mm) spaced machined pin headers and sockets, both single row and double row, from Mouser. The 50 pin versions seem to be the only ones they stock. I can cut them down to the appropriate size, i.e., 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 2x2, 2x3, 2x4, etc. and solder the wires to them. I know that Miniatronics sells 1x2, 1x3 and 1x4 pre-wired sets and TCS sells 1x2, 1x4, 1x6 and 2x3 pre-wired sets in the .050 (1,27mm) spacing. But they are pricey, hence my ordering the connectors from Mouser. With 32 Ga silicone wire, I’m confident I can make my own for 1/5 the price of the pre-wired sets.

Joe Melhorn

Sahuarita, AZ


Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
 

  OK, so on the prototype there would be a wire going to a switch in the cab to turn the
headlight on/off.  Right?  And that wire would run in a "conduit" along the ~top~ of the
boiler?  So why not simulate that and run the wire(s) all the way to the cab and from
inside the cab get to the decoder (with the resistor being somewhere inside the cab/
boiler)?
  Yes, the wire(s)  ... even inside shrunk tubing ... are larger than the prototype ... 

  I guess it is a case of "the lesser of two evils" and the modeler gets to choose ...
For me - taking the wires thru the smoke box cover, especially when I can run
them right under the headlight/headlight bracket, is the least obtrusive (noticeable
when viewing from the typical/normal modeler's view point/angle.
                                                                                                                     - Jim B.


Doug Cummings
 

Not completely accurate. There was a dynamo (generator) which was located on top of the boiler and there was a small steam pipe going to it which drove the generator. There was a valve in the cab which the crew would operate admitting steam to the dynamo when they wanted lights or electricity. In my younger days I worked as a fireman on steam locomotives. 




  OK, so on the prototype there would be a wire going to a switch in the cab to turn the
headlight on/off.  Right?  And that wire would run in a "conduit" along the ~top~ of the
boiler?  So why not simulate that and run the wire(s) all the way to the cab and from
inside the cab get to the decoder (with the resistor being somewhere inside the cab/
boiler)?
  Yes, the wire(s)  ... even inside shrunk tubing ... are larger than the prototype ... 

  I guess it is a case of "the lesser of two evils" and the modeler gets to choose ...
For me - taking the wires thru the smoke box cover, especially when I can run
them right under the headlight/headlight bracket, is the least obtrusive (noticeable
when viewing from the typical/normal modeler's view point/angle.
                                                                                                                     - Jim B.


Dale Buxton
 

In D&RG practice. In most cases mind you (NOT ALL). The power wires go from the dynamo them inside of  a hand rail down the length of the boiler and exit it into a junction box.  It then branches to conduits to the markers and headlamp. All on top of the boiler or smoke box. With a truss rod anchor point taking up most of the space just under the headlamp platform. Where do you drill the hole there???

Dale Buxton 


Jim Betz <jimbetz@...>
 

Done!

  What I did was to use Mark's suggestion to drill up thru the bottom of the
headlight (thru the platform and the headlight casting) and then one 
additional hole thru the smoke box cover that is "just below the mounting
bracket for the center plow support.
  Dale - there was just enough space along side of the plow support to
get a hole big enough for both wires from the LEDBaron LED to get thru.
After the LED install in the smoke box cover is 100% complete I will bend
the plow support bracket back to center (it got pushed, just slightly, off
center by the drill ... but wasn't 'eaten away' by the side of the drill).

  Thanks guys for helping me get my head around this one correctly.  My
original plan probably would have worked - but this way it is simpler 
(less holes/drilling), less visible, and less 'stress' on where the leads
are soldered to the super small LED (yes, I've broken more than one
of those off during previous installs).  

                                    ****

  Also - the boiler and frame separated differently this time.  I must 
have unscrewed the 2 screws holding the cylinders to the frame
the first time.  DOH!
                                                                                - Jim B.


Chris Kodani <ckodani@...>
 

Just thinking outside the box here. If routing the wires is causing a problem, could you forego wires, and maybe try conductive paint? It comes in black (certainly easy to hide on a narrow gauge locomotive, right?). https://youtu.be/4HdRGaZ0bIQ


LARRY KLOSE
 

Re drilling and hazards to the model from parts falling off, PBL (Sn3
Specialist) sells or sold a product called Boelube for lubricating drills.
Developed by Boeing, it helps by enhancing cutting speed and keeping the
work piece cooler. I don't see it on the web site but maybe that's an
oversight. Try calling to see if it's still available. PBL part no. 800.
This is an industrial product so it may no longer be available in small
quantities.

P-B-L.com;707-462-7680.

Ask Joe Melhorn who recently posted about drill speed. In the course of an
LED and decoder install for me he recently drilled some very delicate light
castings soldered to one of my models and as I recall, he used a pretty high
speed. Nothing fell off.

Can't comment on the best route for the wiring.

Larry


Dale Buxton
 

Larry,

Several years ago I needed some more Boelube and could not find it on the PBL web site then either. I found it at a small aircraft construction suppler that specializes in Spruce Wood. ( https://www.aircraftspruce.com ) I thought the connection was strange but they stocked both liquid and and stick form.  A 4 oz. bottle was reasonable in price (about $12 and the stick was about $4). I think I like the liquid better than the stick. Which reminds me, I need to order some more.


I just did a quick search for the stuff and found it at  MSC Direct. They have a better price point and always have really fast delivery times!

Dale Buxton



On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:10 PM LARRY KLOSE <lklose@...> wrote:
Re drilling and hazards to the model from parts falling off, PBL (Sn3
Specialist) sells or sold a product called Boelube for lubricating drills.
Developed by Boeing, it helps by enhancing cutting speed and keeping the
work piece cooler.  I don't see it on the web site but maybe that's an
oversight.  Try calling to see if it's still available.  PBL part no. 800.
This is an industrial product so it may no longer be available in small
quantities.

P-B-L.com;707-462-7680.

Ask Joe Melhorn who recently posted about drill speed.  In the course of an
LED and decoder install for me he recently drilled some very delicate light
castings soldered to one of my models and as I recall, he used a pretty high
speed.  Nothing fell off.

Can't comment on the best route for the wiring.

Larry





Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited

Larry,

Thanks for the tip about Boelube, I just ordered some in stick form, the liquid is available but in larger quantities. I'd been using ordinary oil or nothing at all up to now. Perhaps my 'bits falling off' scenarios willl come to an end.

Mark K