Date   
Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

NarrowMinded1
 

How many cars can a Blackstone C-19 pull on level and up a 2% grade? Thanks.
--
Nathan M. Kline
McConnellsburg, PA 17233

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Ric Case
 

Nate I can’t really answer your question as I have not enough information. The pulling ratio is directly effected by the type and weight of the cars! I have ten of them with added weight on the cab roofs! All of mine will pull ten BS cars up the 2% grade, I have pulled as many as 15 on a flat. 
Stock would not pull that great!
I have modified fifteen to look more like the EBT #7.
Still not perfect but looks good to me! 
Keep up the railroading! 
Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
513-375-7694


On Jan 17, 2019, at 2:38 AM, NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:

How many cars can a Blackstone C-19 pull on level and up a 2% grade? Thanks.
--
Nathan M. Kline
McConnellsburg, PA 17233

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Mike Chamberlain
 

Hi Ric ! Would it be possible to do a short how to on adding the cab roof weight ? I assume some sheet led would work , but I haven't tried that yet . I use mine on a 4% grade and have to double head to pull any reasonable size train .....Thanks ! .....Mike


On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 11:31 PM Ric Case <ebtmodeler@...> wrote:
Nate I can’t really answer your question as I have not enough information. The pulling ratio is directly effected by the type and weight of the cars! I have ten of them with added weight on the cab roofs! All of mine will pull ten BS cars up the 2% grade, I have pulled as many as 15 on a flat. 
Stock would not pull that great!
I have modified fifteen to look more like the EBT #7.
Still not perfect but looks good to me! 
Keep up the railroading! 
Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
513-375-7694


On Jan 17, 2019, at 2:38 AM, NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:

How many cars can a Blackstone C-19 pull on level and up a 2% grade? Thanks.
--
Nathan M. Kline
McConnellsburg, PA 17233

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Risrwy@...
 

I used Bullfrog Snot on the rear drivers. Thinned it out as for "N" gauge use. Before the '"Snot" a Blackstone C-19 wouldn't even pull itself up a 4% grade. I lowered it to 3% and all works as expected. A C-19 takes four LaBelle passenger cars up with ease. Then again do you want to really pull everything with one locomotive?  Think helpers as that is how it was done before the "Mudhens" arrived. After that it was all history as they say. Paul.
--
Recreating the 14th. Subdivision
D&RGW Salida Division in 1929

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Ed Tibbetts
 

On the D&RG eastbound up the 4% to Cerro Summit, the C21's were rated at 3 loaded coal gon's and a caboose. Normal operation was to tripple the hill. Some of the old pictures of Marshal pass show tripple head 2-8-0's (can't tell if 56 or 60's) with 8 or 9 cars.

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Ric Case
 

Mike I can do a verbal but all 10 of mine are converted.was thinking about another one but financial restrictions are in effect At this moment! 
I can do it in about an hour start to finish! You only need a dremel with a milling cutter to remove the cast hatch on the roof! 
Then you cut the sheet lead to fit. Paint the new roof flat black or Tuscan red and add a new hatch. I can send photos to you if interested!
Ric Case 


On Jan 20, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Risrwy@... wrote:

I used Bullfrog Snot on the rear drivers. Thinned it out as for "N" gauge use. Before the '"Snot" a Blackstone C-19 wouldn't even pull itself up a 4% grade. I lowered it to 3% and all works as expected. A C-19 takes four LaBelle passenger cars up with ease. Then again do you want to really pull everything with one locomotive?  Think helpers as that is how it was done before the "Mudhens" arrived. After that it was all history as they say. Paul.
--
Recreating the 14th. Subdivision
D&RGW Salida Division in 1929

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

kevin b
 


Mike I can do a verbal but all 10 of mine are converted.was thinking about another one but financial restrictions are in effect At this moment! 
I can do it in about an hour start to finish! You only need a dremel with a milling cutter to remove the cast hatch on the roof! 
Then you cut the sheet lead to fit. Paint the new roof flat black or Tuscan red and add a new hatch. I can send photos to you if interested!
Ric Case 

i'd like to see a picture or two of that myself.
thanks.
Kevin.
arcatruck13@...

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Mike Chamberlain
 

Ahh , Thanks Ric !  Think I'll have to do something different though , I'd hate to mess up the roof . Maybe something beside the boiler and below the windows .....Mike


On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:45 PM kevin b via Groups.Io <arcatruck13=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Mike I can do a verbal but all 10 of mine are converted.was thinking about another one but financial restrictions are in effect At this moment! 
I can do it in about an hour start to finish! You only need a dremel with a milling cutter to remove the cast hatch on the roof! 
Then you cut the sheet lead to fit. Paint the new roof flat black or Tuscan red and add a new hatch. I can send photos to you if interested!
Ric Case 

i'd like to see a picture or two of that myself.
thanks.
Kevin.

Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

asandrini
 

Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood. As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam. My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ). I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar. The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar. I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al

Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

lloyd lehrer
 

Al, consider just cutting a rectangular hole in the foam so a tortoise fits in tight enough to hold it when placed in from the top side of the foam. The shape of the tortoise is perfect for it holding itself in place. You hold it in with a cover  that you can place over it and use screws into the foam or an adhesive. you cut a slot in the actuator side of the foam to allow the mechanism room to move. The rest of it is just mechanical placement of the crank or throw shaft to suit your turnout location. A hole in the underplaying plywood will be needed to let the rest hang thru.

lloyd lehrer, (310)951-9097

On Jan 20, 2019 8:52 PM, "asandrini" <asandrini@...> wrote:
Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood.  As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam.  My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ).  I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar.  The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar.  I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al







--
lloyd lehrer

Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Russ Norris
 

The substrate for my HO scale railroad is 2 inch extruded foam (the pink stuff) on an open grid of pine 1x4s.  I have tried several ways to mount Tortoise machines.  Early on I cut a hole in the foam big enough for the Tortoise to fit in.  Then I cut a square of wood or styrene slightly bigger than the hole (1/8 or 1/16 inch thick as I recall) and screwed the machine to it.  I cut away 1/8" off  the top of the foam so the Tortoise fit even with the top of the foam.  A little glue to secure it, then I just lay the switch over it.

Later I found it was easier (especially retro fitting the switch machine for an installed and ballasted track) to mount the machine under the foam.  I still attach it to a 1/8" square of thin plywood, but now I drill a 1/2" hole under the throw rod and cement the wood square to the underside with Liquid Nails.  I use a wood pole and shims to hold the machine in place until the glue dries.  Never had one come loose.  If I ever have to remove the machine, I can unscrew it from below.  

Oh, and by the way, I am 77.  I use one of those adjustable shower stools to sit on when I work underneath.

Russ Norris



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: asandrini <asandrini@...>
Date: 1/20/19 11:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: finescaleminiatures@groups.io, HOn3@groups.io, HOn30@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood.  As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam.  My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ).  I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar.  The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar.  I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al





Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Bruce Petrarca
 

I’ve recommended using plywood or Masonite the same thickness as your roadbed. Cut a section about as large as your turnout - but a bit smaller. Don’t want the edge of the board to be coincident with the rail joiners.

Cut a larger than needed hole for the Tortoise in the foam. 

Build your Tortoise and turnout assembly on the board on the workbench. There you can adjust and troubleshoot the assembly.

Pull the Tortoise wires through the hole and attach them. Slip the turnout assembly into position. Attach rail joiners. The wood can be secured to the foam with caulk. 
--
Bruce Petrarca, Mr. DCC; MMR #574

On Jan 20, 2019, at 9:52 PM, asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:

Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood.  As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam.  My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ).  I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar.  The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar.  I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al





<winmail.dat>

Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

asandrini
 

Russ, and others...

It us not the actual mounting of the machine, it is the working of the machines with an extra length wire from below. 

With the long travel of the wire, the timing of having the points releasing from the stock rail and the switching if polarity of the frog could and in most cases will create a short.  If the fulcrum is mounted in typical disrance/position beneath the subroadbed, there is no problem.

Even Ciruitron warns of this problem.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...>
Date: 1/21/19 6:19 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: HOn3@groups.io, finescaleminiatures@groups.io, HOn30@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

The substrate for my HO scale railroad is 2 inch extruded foam (the pink stuff) on an open grid of pine 1x4s.  I have tried several ways to mount Tortoise machines.  Early on I cut a hole in the foam big enough for the Tortoise to fit in.  Then I cut a square of wood or styrene slightly bigger than the hole (1/8 or 1/16 inch thick as I recall) and screwed the machine to it.  I cut away 1/8" off  the top of the foam so the Tortoise fit even with the top of the foam.  A little glue to secure it, then I just lay the switch over it.

Later I found it was easier (especially retro fitting the switch machine for an installed and ballasted track) to mount the machine under the foam.  I still attach it to a 1/8" square of thin plywood, but now I drill a 1/2" hole under the throw rod and cement the wood square to the underside with Liquid Nails.  I use a wood pole and shims to hold the machine in place until the glue dries.  Never had one come loose.  If I ever have to remove the machine, I can unscrew it from below.  

Oh, and by the way, I am 77.  I use one of those adjustable shower stools to sit on when I work underneath.

Russ Norris



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: asandrini <asandrini@...>
Date: 1/20/19 11:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: finescaleminiatures@groups.io, HOn3@groups.io, HOn30@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood.  As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam.  My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ).  I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar.  The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar.  I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al





Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Russ Norris
 

Gotcha!  Although I have not found this to be a problem on my layout (I do use a heavier gauge wire and this seems to prevent your problem) I understand what you are saying.  On a wye I once tried to use a Switchmaster instead of a Tortoise.  The advantage of the Switchmaster is that the action is not back and forth (as in the case of the Tortoise) but circular.  The wire is turned by the machine, and the torque is transmitted through a length of brass tubing to the throwbar on top.  This works great if your layout is constructed of plywood and Homosote.  I tried it with 2 inch foam and found that the brass tube tended to wiggle as the wire rotated, and eventually the tube gouged out a larger hole in the foam, making the entire link fail.   I don't know of any way to overcome this except possibly having the tube go through small squares of wood on the underside and top of the foam, the wood being glued to the foam so it can't move.  I haven't tried this technique, but it seems plausible.  

The other possible solutions involve surface mounting the switch machine and disguising it in some way -- either inside scenery or in a building adjacent to the track.  In that case, you would still be dealing with a back and forth motion, not a circular one.  All of this has convinced me that plywood and Homosote are the way to go for benchwork.  Foam is great for scenery, but it has several negative aspects.  First, of course, is the difficulty in mounting switch machines.  The other problem with foam is that it's noisy.  When one of my brass engines travels over foam, the grinding of the gears is amplified into a rumble that can be hear some distance away.  When the engine passes over an area where I used plywood and Homosote, the noise disappears.  At my age, I don't think I will be building another layout, but if I did, I would not use foam.

Russ Norris


On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:53 AM asandrini <asandrini@...> wrote:
Russ, and others...

It us not the actual mounting of the machine, it is the working of the machines with an extra length wire from below. 

With the long travel of the wire, the timing of having the points releasing from the stock rail and the switching if polarity of the frog could and in most cases will create a short.  If the fulcrum is mounted in typical disrance/position beneath the subroadbed, there is no problem.

Even Ciruitron warns of this problem.

Al



Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...>
Date: 1/21/19 6:19 AM (GMT-08:00)
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

The substrate for my HO scale railroad is 2 inch extruded foam (the pink stuff) on an open grid of pine 1x4s.  I have tried several ways to mount Tortoise machines.  Early on I cut a hole in the foam big enough for the Tortoise to fit in.  Then I cut a square of wood or styrene slightly bigger than the hole (1/8 or 1/16 inch thick as I recall) and screwed the machine to it.  I cut away 1/8" off  the top of the foam so the Tortoise fit even with the top of the foam.  A little glue to secure it, then I just lay the switch over it.

Later I found it was easier (especially retro fitting the switch machine for an installed and ballasted track) to mount the machine under the foam.  I still attach it to a 1/8" square of thin plywood, but now I drill a 1/2" hole under the throw rod and cement the wood square to the underside with Liquid Nails.  I use a wood pole and shims to hold the machine in place until the glue dries.  Never had one come loose.  If I ever have to remove the machine, I can unscrew it from below.  

Oh, and by the way, I am 77.  I use one of those adjustable shower stools to sit on when I work underneath.

Russ Norris



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: asandrini <asandrini@...>
Date: 1/20/19 11:52 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [HOn3] Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Hello,

Sorry for the multiple listings, but I am trying to reach as many modelers
as possible to see if there is an answer to my problem.

In the construction of my port town of Scott's Bay, I used 2" form on ½"
plywood.  As a river, the bay and wharf areas were to be lower than ground
level, I thought it would be easier to cut it out of the pink foam.  My
conundrum is that I cannot mount Tortoise machines in their normal manner.
I purchased some of their remote mounts, but my 71 year old knees are having
trouble kneeling down and trying to fit everything together under the bottom
of the benchwork (40" in height, track is at 42 7/8" ).  I would like to use
the Tortoise machine to move a wire that rises through a tube two ties from
the throwbar.  The wire would be bent at 90 degrees and then another bend of
90 degrees to drop it down through the throwbar.

What I am wanting to do is mount the Tortoise in its normal manner and have
the wire which attaches to the machine move the wire that moves the
throwbar.  I am sure that someone out there has come up with a way to do
this.

My crude drawing attached is a way in which I think may work, but am needing
some help from the groups.

I am going to try to embed the drawing here, but will also add it as an
attachment.

Al





Re: Crossing Pogue Bridge

Robert Bell
 

Very nice!

Rob Bell 


Blackstone C-19 pulling power

STEVEN WYSOWSKI
 

Nate
I have six C-19’s and all pull 8 or 9 weighted cars on the straight and narrow. On a 1% curve the pull is fine! Can’t comment on anything steeper but so far, very good pulling power.

Steve

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

NarrowMinded1
 

Ric,

Sorry, I forgot those details....

Stock (unmodified) BS C-19, stock BS rolling stock and a few MTL reefers. If I have to I guess I will setup a grade test track.

Nate


" Nate I can’t really answer your question as I have not enough information. The pulling ratio is directly effected by the type and weight of the cars! I have ten of them with added weight on the cab roofs! All of mine will pull ten BS cars up the 2% grade, I have pulled as many as 15 on a flat. 
Stock would not pull that great!
I have modified fifteen to look more like the EBT #7.
Still not perfect but looks good to me! 
Keep up the railroading! 
Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
513-375-7694"

--
Nathan M. Kline
McConnellsburg, PA 17233

Re: Blackstone C-19 pulling power?

Dale Buxton
 

Yes, if you put axle wipers on Backstone cars for sound cars or cars with lighting. I have found that these C-19’s can only pull 4 wiper equipped cars on the flat and level.

Dale Buxton

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 17:12 NarrowMinded1 <nathan.kline83@...> wrote:
Ric,

Sorry, I forgot those details....

Stock (unmodified) BS C-19, stock BS rolling stock and a few MTL reefers. If I have to I guess I will setup a grade test track.

Nate


" Nate I can’t really answer your question as I have not enough information. The pulling ratio is directly effected by the type and weight of the cars! I have ten of them with added weight on the cab roofs! All of mine will pull ten BS cars up the 2% grade, I have pulled as many as 15 on a flat. 
Stock would not pull that great!
I have modified fifteen to look more like the EBT #7.
Still not perfect but looks good to me! 
Keep up the railroading! 
Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
513-375-7694"

--
Nathan M. Kline
McConnellsburg, PA 17233

Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Jim Spencer
 

I have a large layout using 2” extruded (blue) foam. It is as quiet or quieter than the traditional Homosote and plywood. Here was how:
I have worked with acousticians over the years. I learned that dissimilar materials can often cancel out resonant frequencies. Without that, the foam acts like a drum, magnifying the rumble.
The solution I used was to bond thin doorskin plywood or thin Masonite to the underside of the foam panels creating a composite assembly. That assembly will span more than 32”; the 1x3 framing or heavy plywood top is unneeded. And the noise is nearly silent - trust me! An added benefit is switch machines and wiring can be screwed firmly to the underside of the assembly.
It works; saves time; results in a much thinner deck. Try it!
Jim

Re: Mounting Tortoise Machine through Foam

Russ Norris
 

Yes, I have read other reports about laminating doorskin to the foam.  I am sure that would work.  Unfortunately, I learned about that trick long after I constructed my layout.  My foam is glued to the wooden support grid with Liquid Nails.  That, together with all the wires that would have to be rerouted, makes adding lamination to the railroad an impossible task at this point.  If I were starting over, that might be something to consider.  But for my situation, I have become accustomed to the rumbling of trains around the layout, and I hardly notice it anymore.  (I will say that when I video recorded a train running around the layout, the rumbling was more noticeable than I knew.  That's life.)

Russ Norris

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:50 PM Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:
I have a large layout using 2” extruded (blue) foam. It is as quiet or quieter than the traditional Homosote and plywood. Here was how:
I have worked with acousticians over the years. I learned that dissimilar materials can often cancel out resonant frequencies. Without that, the foam acts like a drum, magnifying the rumble.
The solution I used was to bond thin doorskin plywood or thin Masonite to the underside of the foam panels creating a composite assembly. That assembly will span more than 32”; the 1x3 framing or heavy plywood top is unneeded. And the noise is nearly silent - trust me! An added benefit is switch machines and wiring can be screwed firmly to the underside of the assembly.
It works; saves time; results in a much thinner deck. Try it!
Jim