Date   
Re: Evolution of the K-27

Seb J
 

John,

Clearly O’Berry had access to very good informations. Too bad there is not more of it in the book, or an open access to it...
Also, reading this again, those broken valve bridges might be the very reason in which engines got their cylinders replaced first !
Many answers probably lies in the mechanical records of the K27... ? Anybody know where are they ? at CRRM !?

Seb


Le ven. 3 avr. 2020 à 07:14, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> a écrit :
Bill

I am not a D&RG guy either.

The Loree evaluation of the D&RG was commissioned in 1917. Mr Hess did the motive power aspects, Those regarding the narrow gauge power were generally ignored. Hess recommended that the K-27 engines be upgraded with piston valve cylinders for better steam distribution, outside valve gear that would be much easier to maintain and less subject to wear and damage, and super heating for the by then well documented steaming improvements. The D&RG's only immediate action was to fit four engines with piston valves.

Repeating O'Berry's quotation of Hess regarding this: "...We find that 5 of these locomotives have received new cylinders in the past 2 or 3 years, and that the majority of the balance of this series will require new cylinders in the near future, account of valve bridges being broken. It would be my recommendation that in applying new cylinders a piston valve cylinder be applied. This style of cylinder would cost about $200.00 more per locomotive than the slide valve type. An outside design of valve should be applied as locomotives pass through the shop for general repairs. With the application of piston valves, cylinders, and an outside design of valve gear, these locomotives would be easy to superheat. As they are the heaviest class of narrow gauge power now on this line, they will undoubtedly be maintained for long period of time."

In a slide valve engine, the valve bridges are the thin walls that separate the cylinder ports from the exhaust port at the valve face, over which the valve body slides to time the inlet and exhaust of steam from the ends of the cylinder. With a broken valve bridge, steam in the corresponding end of the cylinder can exhaust throughout the piston stroke This gives a very uneven pull, and could greatly reduce the available tractive. So with broken bridges cylinder replacement a very high priority, which is doubtless why it was being done. And since a piston valve's bridges are machined in an inserted cylindrical liner, instead of the cylinder casting itself, this explains why the four early conversions were never replaced by the later style, with the valve chambers aligned for outside valve gear.

Hess's recommendations regarding outside valve gear and super heating were not acted upon until almost two years after 10/23 arrival of the K-28s. The K-28s were a thoroughly modern version of the then twenty year old K-27s. They were effectively a super power version, though Lima had not yet publicized the term. A K-28 could take a K-27's load anywhere a K-27 could go, and do it while making significant improvements on either the K-27's time over the road or the K-27's fuel and water use. As the D&RGW's new principal NG freight power, they demonstrated what could be gained by modernizing the K-27s. That program starts as soon as the K-36s arrived to take up the load, and proceeded until falling traffic on the remaining lightly bridged lines could not justify further conversions. By then upgraded track and bridges had allowed the much heavier K-36 and K-37 classes to take over the heavy freight traffic, and the K-28s had been largely relegated to passenger service. The much lighter power remaining from the 1880's did not long survive the unimproved lines that could not handle the by then medium weight K-27s and K-28s.

Mike - regarding tenders:

O'Berry states " In 1918 new rectangular shaped tender tanks were drawn up and began to be fabricated at Burnham. Although the plan called for a six inch radius on the rear corners the first two fabricated, for locomotives 453 and 464, had virtually square corners. ..." I suggest a good second look at his historical section. While he largely limits himself to abstracts, Dennis clearly had access to a lot more details than have turned up in this discussion.

John Stutz
On April 2, 2020 at 9:11 AM Bill Lugg <luggw1@...> wrote:


I'm not a D&RG guy so bear with me...

You mention the recommendation by Mr' Hess to replace scrapped
locomotives with OF 2-6-6-2s.  Was this recommendation followed?  I
don't believe I've ever seen a photo of one of these beasts.

Thanks
Bill Lugg


On 4/2/20 2:27 AM, John Stutz wrote:
...
The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob
<'s" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://sitemailxchange.gate.com/appsuite/ui#>'s AEF data book, with
entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in
O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power
expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable
improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade
the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.
...

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé

Re: Evolution of the K-27

John Stutz
 

Bill

I am not a D&RG guy either.

The Loree evaluation of the D&RG was commissioned in 1917. Mr Hess did the motive power aspects, Those regarding the narrow gauge power were generally ignored. Hess recommended that the K-27 engines be upgraded with piston valve cylinders for better steam distribution, outside valve gear that would be much easier to maintain and less subject to wear and damage, and super heating for the by then well documented steaming improvements. The D&RG's only immediate action was to fit four engines with piston valves.

Repeating O'Berry's quotation of Hess regarding this: "...We find that 5 of these locomotives have received new cylinders in the past 2 or 3 years, and that the majority of the balance of this series will require new cylinders in the near future, account of valve bridges being broken. It would be my recommendation that in applying new cylinders a piston valve cylinder be applied. This style of cylinder would cost about $200.00 more per locomotive than the slide valve type. An outside design of valve should be applied as locomotives pass through the shop for general repairs. With the application of piston valves, cylinders, and an outside design of valve gear, these locomotives would be easy to superheat. As they are the heaviest class of narrow gauge power now on this line, they will undoubtedly be maintained for long period of time."

In a slide valve engine, the valve bridges are the thin walls that separate the cylinder ports from the exhaust port at the valve face, over which the valve body slides to time the inlet and exhaust of steam from the ends of the cylinder. With a broken valve bridge, steam in the corresponding end of the cylinder can exhaust throughout the piston stroke This gives a very uneven pull, and could greatly reduce the available tractive. So with broken bridges cylinder replacement a very high priority, which is doubtless why it was being done. And since a piston valve's bridges are machined in an inserted cylindrical liner, instead of the cylinder casting itself, this explains why the four early conversions were never replaced by the later style, with the valve chambers aligned for outside valve gear.

Hess's recommendations regarding outside valve gear and super heating were not acted upon until almost two years after 10/23 arrival of the K-28s. The K-28s were a thoroughly modern version of the then twenty year old K-27s. They were effectively a super power version, though Lima had not yet publicized the term. A K-28 could take a K-27's load anywhere a K-27 could go, and do it while making significant improvements on either the K-27's time over the road or the K-27's fuel and water use. As the D&RGW's new principal NG freight power, they demonstrated what could be gained by modernizing the K-27s. That program starts as soon as the K-36s arrived to take up the load, and proceeded until falling traffic on the remaining lightly bridged lines could not justify further conversions. By then upgraded track and bridges had allowed the much heavier K-36 and K-37 classes to take over the heavy freight traffic, and the K-28s had been largely relegated to passenger service. The much lighter power remaining from the 1880's did not long survive the unimproved lines that could not handle the by then medium weight K-27s and K-28s.

Mike - regarding tenders:

O'Berry states " In 1918 new rectangular shaped tender tanks were drawn up and began to be fabricated at Burnham. Although the plan called for a six inch radius on the rear corners the first two fabricated, for locomotives 453 and 464, had virtually square corners. ..." I suggest a good second look at his historical section. While he largely limits himself to abstracts, Dennis clearly had access to a lot more details than have turned up in this discussion.

John Stutz

On April 2, 2020 at 9:11 AM Bill Lugg <luggw1@...> wrote:


I'm not a D&RG guy so bear with me...

You mention the recommendation by Mr' Hess to replace scrapped
locomotives with OF 2-6-6-2s.  Was this recommendation followed?  I
don't believe I've ever seen a photo of one of these beasts.

Thanks
Bill Lugg


On 4/2/20 2:27 AM, John Stutz wrote:
...
The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob
<'s" rel="noopener" target="_blank">https://sitemailxchange.gate.com/appsuite/ui#>'s AEF data book, with
entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in
O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power
expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable
improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade
the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.
...

Re: Good video ...

Mike Conder
 

Not so long ago ... 1976 apparently.  But it dates back to the 1890's.

Mike Conder

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 9:15 PM Mike Van Hove <vanhovem22@...> wrote:
When did this operation shut down?

Some of the structure looks fairly new.

Mike Van Hove

On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:55 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

... with great views of the interior framing of the top of the Commodore Mine's orehouse on top of the famous bins in Creede.


Pardon the multiple postings ...

Mike Conder

Re: Good video ...

Mike Van Hove
 

When did this operation shut down?

Some of the structure looks fairly new.

Mike Van Hove

On Apr 2, 2020, at 9:55 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

... with great views of the interior framing of the top of the Commodore Mine's orehouse on top of the famous bins in Creede.


Pardon the multiple postings ...

Mike Conder

Good video ...

Mike Conder
 

... with great views of the interior framing of the top of the Commodore Mine's orehouse on top of the famous bins in Creede.


Pardon the multiple postings ...

Mike Conder

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Mike Conder
 

Thanks John, great info!  Answers plus more. 

Mike Conder

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 2:28 AM John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Mike

Recapitulating:  The D&RG class 125s, later D&RGW K-27s, were built in 1903 with saturated steam boilers and Vauclain compound cylinders worked by inside Stevenson valve gear and inside piston valves.  D&RG experienced the usual problems with this combination, and began converting them to simple expansion cylinders with traditional slide valves, retaining the Stevenson gear, with conversion of 458 completed ~12/ 06 [ O'Berry p12].  O'Berry states that 456 was the last compound in 1912, and not listed as simple until 4/16.  

There were (at least) two slide valve versions, the early one retaining the Vauclan cylinder's 4-bar crosshead and guides, and a latter one with the same 2-bar crosshead used on piston valve cylinders.  The 464 still had  the 4-bar version on 6/6/23 [O'Berry p48].

As you have noted regarding tender cistern revisions, from sloped to square backed, these lagged the single expansion conversions in an unknown number of cases, perhaps all.  O'Berry's p89 shows 459 with a slope back 6/8/17.  I suspect this change waited until the old cisterns were deemed unpatchable, and required complete replacement.

The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob's AEF data book, with entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.

I find it interesting that while piston valves were tried as early a 1918, none of the K-27s received Walscharts valve gear until the K-36s arrived in 9/25, while the K-28s had been in service since 10/23.  And super heating the K-27s ran from 12/25 to 12/28, beginning only after after two years experience with the K-28's.  It looks like D&RGW had serious reservations about both the Walscharts gear and super heating.  Of course the D&RG was pretty near flat broke in this time frame, so that could account for the delays, since super heating requires replacing both tube sheets, a major alteration.  

In this table  PV denotes piston valve cylinders, and WG denotes Walscharts outside valve gear.   The notation "pv 1918+" denotes early undated installation of inboard piston valve cylinders for use with Stevenson inside valve gear, per a drawing dated 1918. 

engine    simpled       PV&WG     superheated

450      12/08-9/09    ----------------------------

451        9/09-1/12    ----------------------------

452      12/08-9/09    11/30/25    <    6/27/28

453        9/09-1/12      9/30/26    =    9/30/26

454        9/09-1/12    pv 1918+        12/31/28

455      12/08-9/09    12/31/25    =   12/31/25

456         by  4/16       pv 1918+       12/31/28

457             ?           ------------------------------

458          12/06         pv 1918+         9/30/27

459       9/09-1/12      8/15/27     =    8/15/27

460       9/09-1/12     -----------------------------

461     12/08-9/09     pv 1918+         2/28/27

462       9/09-1/12      8/31/29          ----------

463     12/08-9/09      6/30/27     =    6/30/27

464       9/09-1/12      9/30/25     <    6/27/28


Then there is the air pump conversions, from one to two single phase pumps, then to the cross compound pumps,  And the not necessarily simultaneous shift from an air tank under cab plus a tank on tender, to twin tanks under raised running boards.  See O'Berry's photos of 460, for cross compound pump plus tender mounted tank version.  And then there is 463 on 6/6/23 with slide valves, twin pumps, a tank under the left running board, and one on the tender. O'Berry has some dates for doubling the pumps.

John Stutz

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Bill Lugg
 

I'm not a D&RG guy so bear with me...

You mention the recommendation by Mr' Hess to replace scrapped locomotives with OF 2-6-6-2s.  Was this recommendation followed?  I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of one of these beasts.

Thanks
Bill Lugg


On 4/2/20 2:27 AM, John Stutz wrote:
...
The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob <https://sitemailxchange.gate.com/appsuite/ui#>'s AEF data book, with entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.
...

Re: Evolution of the K-27

John Stutz
 

Mike

Recapitulating:  The D&RG class 125s, later D&RGW K-27s, were built in 1903 with saturated steam boilers and Vauclain compound cylinders worked by inside Stevenson valve gear and inside piston valves.  D&RG experienced the usual problems with this combination, and began converting them to simple expansion cylinders with traditional slide valves, retaining the Stevenson gear, with conversion of 458 completed ~12/ 06 [ O'Berry p12].  O'Berry states that 456 was the last compound in 1912, and not listed as simple until 4/16.  

There were (at least) two slide valve versions, the early one retaining the Vauclan cylinder's 4-bar crosshead and guides, and a latter one with the same 2-bar crosshead used on piston valve cylinders.  The 464 still had  the 4-bar version on 6/6/23 [O'Berry p48].

As you have noted regarding tender cistern revisions, from sloped to square backed, these lagged the single expansion conversions in an unknown number of cases, perhaps all.  O'Berry's p89 shows 459 with a slope back 6/8/17.  I suspect this change waited until the old cisterns were deemed unpatchable, and required complete replacement.

The following shows the conversion dates from Earl Knoob's AEF data book, with entries beginning 12.1919, supplemented by simpling information in O'Berry p12.  See O'Berry p13 for quotes from G.L.Hess, motive power expert for the Loree evaluation of 1917, regarding advisable improvements in the D&RG's NG motive power - essentially to upgrade the K-27s, scrap everything else, and replace with OF 2-6-6-2s.

I find it interesting that while piston valves were tried as early a 1918, none of the K-27s received Walscharts valve gear until the K-36s arrived in 9/25, while the K-28s had been in service since 10/23.  And super heating the K-27s ran from 12/25 to 12/28, beginning only after after two years experience with the K-28's.  It looks like D&RGW had serious reservations about both the Walscharts gear and super heating.  Of course the D&RG was pretty near flat broke in this time frame, so that could account for the delays, since super heating requires replacing both tube sheets, a major alteration.  

In this table  PV denotes piston valve cylinders, and WG denotes Walscharts outside valve gear.   The notation "pv 1918+" denotes early undated installation of inboard piston valve cylinders for use with Stevenson inside valve gear, per a drawing dated 1918. 

engine    simpled       PV&WG     superheated

450      12/08-9/09    ----------------------------

451        9/09-1/12    ----------------------------

452      12/08-9/09    11/30/25    <    6/27/28

453        9/09-1/12      9/30/26    =    9/30/26

454        9/09-1/12    pv 1918+        12/31/28

455      12/08-9/09    12/31/25    =   12/31/25

456         by  4/16       pv 1918+       12/31/28

457             ?           ------------------------------

458          12/06         pv 1918+         9/30/27

459       9/09-1/12      8/15/27     =    8/15/27

460       9/09-1/12     -----------------------------

461     12/08-9/09     pv 1918+         2/28/27

462       9/09-1/12      8/31/29          ----------

463     12/08-9/09      6/30/27     =    6/30/27

464       9/09-1/12      9/30/25     <    6/27/28


Then there is the air pump conversions, from one to two single phase pumps, then to the cross compound pumps,  And the not necessarily simultaneous shift from an air tank under cab plus a tank on tender, to twin tanks under raised running boards.  See O'Berry's photos of 460, for cross compound pump plus tender mounted tank version.  And then there is 463 on 6/6/23 with slide valves, twin pumps, a tank under the left running board, and one on the tender. O'Berry has some dates for doubling the pumps.

John Stutz

New Splines

Steve Hatch
 


The basic framing  is  in and I've started the road bed.
 I use splines by sandwiching  short blocks between 1/8 th by 1 inch laths.
 I cut the laths from 1/8th inch doorskin sheets.
 The blocks are 1 inch wide by 3-4 inches redwood fench boards (very cheep)
here's the progress:

http://www.railwayeng.com/9030railroad/Build/newspline1.jpg

http://www.railwayeng.com/9030railroad/Build/newspline2.jpg

http://www.railwayeng.com/9030railroad/Build/newspline3.jpg

http://www.railwayeng.com/9030railroad/Build/newspline4.jpg

I do the whole main line and then splice on the sidings etc.
Seems to go real fast and easy for me.
-Stephen Hatch
Dewey AZ

Re: Durango Press Rotarys

LenTRaley
 

Graeme:

When first issued, the kits differed only in the body bolster that was included.
One contained an HO standard gauge bolster, and the other an HOn3.  Later, they included both in the same kit and 
reduced the offering to a single kit.

Be well and be safe,

Len Raley

Re: Durango Press Rotarys

tonyk537
 

A quick look through the two kits and I believe it is only in the trucks.  SG wheel sets for all axles.  Different tender truck bolsters and the rotary has different side frames (missing the extensions for the ng wheel sets)

Re: Durango Press Rotarys

Graeme Walker
 

Gee that was easy, just needed to look a bit closer at the pics.
#30 is HOn3
#31 is HO

Graeme

Durango Press Rotarys

Graeme Walker
 

Quick question, what is the difference between DP kit 30 & 31?

From photos online it looks like kit 31 has more metal detail parts both seem to be based on OM

Thanks

Graeme Walker
Toowoomba Australia

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Mike Conder
 

SO I have a question about an earlier evolution of these locos: conversion from compound to slide valve, and when the slope-back tenders were replaced.  I thought they were coincident, but I've seen a few photos of slide valve K-27's still with slope-back tenders, but never the other way around.

Anybody know more?

Mike Conder

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:45 PM John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:
Thanks for the link Sebastien

The discussion was so informative that I had to update my copy of O'Berry's "Mudhens"!

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,378057,page=1

John Stutz

On April 1, 2020 at 1:46 AM Seb J <sebastien.jubault@...> wrote:

Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Link to that thread :

Sebastien

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust= aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé

 

Re: Evolution of the K-27

John Stutz
 

Thanks for the link Sebastien

The discussion was so informative that I had to update my copy of O'Berry's "Mudhens"!

http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,378057,page=1

John Stutz

On April 1, 2020 at 1:46 AM Seb J <sebastien.jubault@...> wrote:

Hi guys,

Last autumn I started a thread on the NGDF forum about the K27 valve conversions.
Very good informations were given, by Earl Knoob for example (costs, dates, etc...). The discussion also revealed the only known picture of a K27 in the intermediate state of the conversion : 456 with inboard piston valves and still with stephenson valve motion.

Link to that thread :

Sebastien

Le mar. 31 mars 2020 à 21:55, Robert Veefkind via Groups.Io <snookdust= aol.com@groups.io> a écrit :


In a message dated 3/31/2020 3:09:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ftgc@... writes:

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone here knows about or could point me towards information covering the evolution of the K-27s.  I'm specifically interested in when their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear were replaced with cylinder valves and Walschaerts valve gear.  I know they were done at different times as the engines were shopped.  I'm looking at what time frame that occurred like 19xx-19xx.

Thanks,
Scott
1923 #454 inside  1924 #456 inside  1925 # 461 & 458 inside also 464- 452 and 455 outside 1926 463 & 459 out side  I believe that valve gear was installed the same times  450 451 457 and 460 sayed slide
I missed 2 somehow     Bob Veefkind

--
Cordialement

Sébastien Jubault
Vice-Président
AECFM - Chemin de Fer de Rillé

 

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Earl Knoob
 

450, 451 and 457 along with 460 were never converted to piston valves and Walschaerts Valve Gear.  They were converted to single expansion slide valves around 1908 retaining their Stephenson Valve Gear.  In the latter 1930's they were seen parted out on the Alamosa deadline.  460 was the last one in service.  462 got its running gear overhaul completed, but the boiler was never superheated.  As it was the last one through the shop in 1930 (a few years after the previous conversions), one could assume the running gear work was completed, the project was stopped and the unmodified boiler placed back on the running gear.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Jeff Reynolds <jefe4x4@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 12:55 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Evolution of the K-27
 
I believe the 460 was the only K-27 that was never converted to walschaerts valve gear. The 462 had no super heater. After contuous shopping, no two K-27's wound up having the same arrangement of parts.
jefe

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Jeff Reynolds
 

I believe the 460 was the only K-27 that was never converted to walschaerts valve gear. The 462 had no super heater. After contuous shopping, no two K-27's wound up having the same arrangement of parts.
jefe

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Mark Kasprowicz
 

That was Brewster.

Re: Evolution of the K-27

Mark Kasprowicz
 

Ed Knoob,

Prefect. Thanks for the precis. Priceless.

Mark K

Re: Evolution of the K-27

ftgcss
 

Earl and Seb,

Thanks, that was just the information I was looking for.  It's amazing what a wealth of information there is here on these forums.  Thanks again all.

Scott