Date   

Re: Figuring Grades

Robert Herrick
 

Oh boy. I could mention a couple of monikers I was tagged with during my working years, but it might be more fun to see how creative you old geezers are. 

Bob


Re: Figuring Grades

kevin b
 

How about “Youngblood”?
The Preacher

well, I for one can't sign off on that as he is north of 70 and i'm 54.
not that I wanna be called Youngblood, cause I don't.
but, if nothing else comes up for him, I guess it'll be alright.
Kevin.


Re: Figuring Grades

claneon30
 

How about “Youngblood”?


The Preacher


Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Sep 27, 2019, at 3:12 PM, Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...> wrote:

North of 70, hey?  We're starting to get a lot of youngsters in the group now!  Well, if you're gonna join the group, you'll need a nickname.  Nobody gets in the door without a nickname.  So start thinking, Bob.  Better you pick it than some of the old geezers in this group.  Present company included.

😁

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 4:59 PM Robert Herrick <rdherrick@...> wrote:
John—it’s not that I want a 4% grade, it’s just what Robert Lah drew in the track plan published with his Chili Line article in the  4/94 MR to model Embudo to Barranca and I was stumped figuring what that would mean in actual inches. I’ve been intrigued by that plan since it was published, but it is way more than I want to tackle as a north-of-70 year old so I view it merely a point of departure.

I am a new member here so I may as well introduce myself, briefly. I’ve been a narrow gauge fan since being introduced to it in Colorado in the early 1960s and I’ve been back many times. I modeled Chama in Sn3 and I am currently building a small switching layout of Dolores on the RGS. But the dang Chili Line has been the itch that won’t go away since reading Gordon Chappell’s piece in the 1969 Colorado Rail Annual. So here I am.

What a wonderful resource you all have developed here! Thanks to all for responding to my question.

Bob Herrick



--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Figuring Grades

Jeff Reynolds
 

I've been all through this, albeit with heavily cero bent brass locos and 30' cars @ 1.3 oz total weight. Lots of variable though. Grandt trucks take more motive power to take on the same grade as do Blackstone's. After some entertaining experimentation, the aforementioned numbers revealed 3% grade was the max for me. This also varied from engine to engine and was not dependant on weight or sprung or unsprung drivers. My 74 and 42 pull like crazy, at least as well as my good K-27's and without suspension. Go figure.
jefe


Re: Figuring Grades

Russ Norris
 

North of 70, hey?  We're starting to get a lot of youngsters in the group now!  Well, if you're gonna join the group, you'll need a nickname.  Nobody gets in the door without a nickname.  So start thinking, Bob.  Better you pick it than some of the old geezers in this group.  Present company included.

😁


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 4:59 PM Robert Herrick <rdherrick@...> wrote:

John—it’s not that I want a 4% grade, it’s just what Robert Lah drew in the track plan published with his Chili Line article in the  4/94 MR to model Embudo to Barranca and I was stumped figuring what that would mean in actual inches. I’ve been intrigued by that plan since it was published, but it is way more than I want to tackle as a north-of-70 year old so I view it merely a point of departure.


I am a new member here so I may as well introduce myself, briefly. I’ve been a narrow gauge fan since being introduced to it in Colorado in the early 1960s and I’ve been back many times. I modeled Chama in Sn3 and I am currently building a small switching layout of Dolores on the RGS. But the dang Chili Line has been the itch that won’t go away since reading Gordon Chappell’s piece in the 1969 Colorado Rail Annual. So here I am.


What a wonderful resource you all have developed here! Thanks to all for responding to my question.


Bob Herrick


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Figuring Grades

Robert Herrick
 

John—it’s not that I want a 4% grade, it’s just what Robert Lah drew in the track plan published with his Chili Line article in the  4/94 MR to model Embudo to Barranca and I was stumped figuring what that would mean in actual inches. I’ve been intrigued by that plan since it was published, but it is way more than I want to tackle as a north-of-70 year old so I view it merely a point of departure.


I am a new member here so I may as well introduce myself, briefly. I’ve been a narrow gauge fan since being introduced to it in Colorado in the early 1960s and I’ve been back many times. I modeled Chama in Sn3 and I am currently building a small switching layout of Dolores on the RGS. But the dang Chili Line has been the itch that won’t go away since reading Gordon Chappell’s piece in the 1969 Colorado Rail Annual. So here I am.


What a wonderful resource you all have developed here! Thanks to all for responding to my question.


Bob Herrick


Re: Figuring Grades

Brian Kopp
 

Oh boy. Here we go. I can't wait to read about the new magne-traction locomotive assist commands in DCC...... =)

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Re: Figuring Grades

Mark Rosche
 

Shouldn’t be too difficult...some parts used to construct a 3D printer (stepper motor, some pulleys, drive belt, some epoxy, some neodymium magnets and an arduino) and a little creative engineering and coding should do the trick...and all for less than $100 😁👍🏻😜🤣😁



Regards,

Mark

Don‘t take life too seriously...no one gets out alive anyway....

On 27. Sep 2019, at 22:06, Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:

Sure you could do that. Liniare electric motors are designed to do just that. All you would need is several thousand dollars for a custom built system. Interesting idea though. If anybody implements a system like this, it will probably be the Germans. They already have the operating vehicle/road system. This would just be another quantum step. 

 In another way to look at this... I have a track inspection car made out of plexiglass that I put a 1 1/2" X 7/8" X 1/8" Neodymium magnet on top of to pick up stray spikes and iron filings. Before I even started, I knew that this particular magnet was massive overkill for the designed purpose. But, it was what I had at the time. This magnet is so powerful that it is attracted to every single tini rail spike head and every screw under the track, homasote and 1/2" plywood within the field of the magnets influence! Its magnetic gauss is just that powerful! When the car is pulled by any HOn3 2-8-0, once the car passes over a screw beneath its field of influence. The poor little loco can't overcome the pull of the magnet to whatever it is being attracted to. The loco just sits and spins its wheels. LOL! I have to use a regauged HO diesel to pull it. 

What if you put a magnet like this under the layout on a secondary line that was a mirror image to the track above it? Maybe like a monorail system moving the Neodymium magnet just below the sub-roadbed. From what I've seen, it takes very little iron to attract these super-magnets. So in theory, this could be used to assist the locomotives up the garde.  

D Buxton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 5:01 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL


Slim Gauge Guild Open House (Nov. 3 & 5 - Pasadena, CA)

Bob Chaparro
 

Slim Gauge Guild Open House (Nov. 3 & 5 - Pasadena, CA)

Courtesy of John Vivian...

The Slim Gauge Guild, in Pasadena will be open for our Semi-Annual Open House on Sunday, November 3, 2019, from 10AM to 6PM and Tuesday evening November 5, 2019 from 6PM to 10PM.

Narrow Gauge modeling in both HOn3 and Sn3 gauge. 2000 sq. ft. of terrific Narrow Gauge modeling.

The Slim Gauge Guild

300 S. Raymond Ave. @ Del Mar Blvd.

Pasadena


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Dale Buxton
 

Sure you could do that. Liniare electric motors are designed to do just that. All you would need is several thousand dollars for a custom built system. Interesting idea though. If anybody implements a system like this, it will probably be the Germans. They already have the operating vehicle/road system. This would just be another quantum step. 

 In another way to look at this... I have a track inspection car made out of plexiglass that I put a 1 1/2" X 7/8" X 1/8" Neodymium magnet on top of to pick up stray spikes and iron filings. Before I even started, I knew that this particular magnet was massive overkill for the designed purpose. But, it was what I had at the time. This magnet is so powerful that it is attracted to every single tini rail spike head and every screw under the track, homasote and 1/2" plywood within the field of the magnets influence! Its magnetic gauss is just that powerful! When the car is pulled by any HOn3 2-8-0, once the car passes over a screw beneath its field of influence. The poor little loco can't overcome the pull of the magnet to whatever it is being attracted to. The loco just sits and spins its wheels. LOL! I have to use a regauged HO diesel to pull it. 

What if you put a magnet like this under the layout on a secondary line that was a mirror image to the track above it? Maybe like a monorail system moving the Neodymium magnet just below the sub-roadbed. From what I've seen, it takes very little iron to attract these super-magnets. So in theory, this could be used to assist the locomotives up the garde.  

D Buxton

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 5:01 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL


Re: Figuring Grades

Mike Conder
 

Exactly, though 5/16" is probably close enough and easier to visualize 

Mike Conder  

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 2:52 PM Richard Johnson <killroy321@...> wrote:
A 4% grade is a 4% rise in 100 feet.
Take the simple numbers, 4% of 100 is 4, be it feet or inches.
You are looking at 8 inches so what is 4% of 8 inches;
8 X .04 = .32 of an inch.   Close to 1/3 of an inch in height.
You can do more math to make that a fraction or google a conversion which is 8/25ths of an inch.

Regards all
Rich Johnson

www.RichardSJohnson.net

"Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms"
Thomas Jefferson

From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Robert Herrick <rdherrick@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:56:17 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: [HOn3] Figuring Grades
 
Math has never been one of my skills so I pose a question. I am looking at a published track plan where 1/2'=1'. A grade rises 4% over 8 inches on the plan. Say it starts at 0 inches, what is the final elevation in inches?

Bob Herrick


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Russ Norris
 

Well, let's think about this.  A 10% grade simply means the rails rise 10% over a given distance, right?  So a rise of 10% over 1000 feet would be 100 feet -- pretty steep.  Multiply that by 5 and you get a rise of a little over 500 feet in a mile!  Chuffed, chuff!  


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:38 AM Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:
Back in 1984 +- I needed to set parameters and design my kidney shaped helix. I had first established a layout room foot print. My grade and passing track parameters included ten cars plus a caboose pulled by Westside or PFM k27s. I knew the 'diameter' of my 'helix'. I used a seven foot long test track and a level. I used whatever to shim up the test track to hit the max grade my test train could pull. Next I used a piece of wood with my dumb 2' level attached loosely with rubber bands. I shimmed up the level to be used to determine the rise per 2 feet. I again used my handy Public School education to calculate the curve compensation (WAG method) for the grade. Given the length of the 'helix' and the rise I needed to achieve I arrived at 2.5 percent. Of course the level laid on the curve is a shorter distance than the actual road bed so the curves are less steep than the straight sections. I laid the first lap with the level and the rest measured on the risers (to preserve any errors). I tested as I went and my 'back yard' engineering held up.

When the Blackstone K27s arrived they were a bit 'slippery' compared to the Westside engines. I can't recall the weight comparison? At the time I wondered if the wheel plating or the tread profile or the weight made the difference? 

My lame assed strategy (as usual) is to mock up and vary the variables. Go ahead, live dangerously. Spike a couple of pieces of flex track down on a 1x4, get out some equipment, run it and take measurements.

In the mean time, Later this afternoon I may go over to Apache Reclaimation to check out their stock of surplus Rail Gun components.

Dusty Burman 
The disaster.....


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Dusty
 

Back in 1984 +- I needed to set parameters and design my kidney shaped helix. I had first established a layout room foot print. My grade and passing track parameters included ten cars plus a caboose pulled by Westside or PFM k27s. I knew the 'diameter' of my 'helix'. I used a seven foot long test track and a level. I used whatever to shim up the test track to hit the max grade my test train could pull. Next I used a piece of wood with my dumb 2' level attached loosely with rubber bands. I shimmed up the level to be used to determine the rise per 2 feet. I again used my handy Public School education to calculate the curve compensation (WAG method) for the grade. Given the length of the 'helix' and the rise I needed to achieve I arrived at 2.5 percent. Of course the level laid on the curve is a shorter distance than the actual road bed so the curves are less steep than the straight sections. I laid the first lap with the level and the rest measured on the risers (to preserve any errors). I tested as I went and my 'back yard' engineering held up.

When the Blackstone K27s arrived they were a bit 'slippery' compared to the Westside engines. I can't recall the weight comparison? At the time I wondered if the wheel plating or the tread profile or the weight made the difference? 

My lame assed strategy (as usual) is to mock up and vary the variables. Go ahead, live dangerously. Spike a couple of pieces of flex track down on a 1x4, get out some equipment, run it and take measurements.

In the mean time, Later this afternoon I may go over to Apache Reclaimation to check out their stock of surplus Rail Gun components.

Dusty Burman 
The disaster.....


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Brian Kopp
 

BTW, (and seriously) if any of you know how to survey a railroad grade and live near Roaring Camp, the conductor on the Redwood Forest steam train mentioned when we were there in June that they would love someone to measure the really steep grade on one of the switchbacks. They were claiming "about 10%" and "one of the steepest grades in north America".

I suggested they talk to a local college/university that teaches surveying and offer to let the students survey the line as a senior design project. I am not sure if they have done anything on it.....
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

asandrini
 

I built a grade checker, using scrap lumber, a 12" level and drywall screws.

3 - 12 1/4 inch long 1"x 2"s

Lay one flat and the other 2 on their sides on each side of the flat piece.

At exactly 12"" from one end, drill a pilot hole and insert a 1" drywall screw up from the flat bottom( the top shouldbe the channel side). Make sure the screw is centered between the sides. The pilot hole should be tapered enough so the flat head screws in and is flat with the bottom of the wood.

Place the checker on a level surface and place the level between the sides of the checker (so it will not fall off, sides were added later in its development because of falling).

Of you you know the grade you want or need, calculate the rise per foot and back the screw out that amount.

Setting you checker on the subroadbed. The level should remain level throughout the grade.  

I have double stacked helixes on my railroad and the checker was very valuable in keeping things consistent. 

Al





Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Russ Norris
 

I'll join you on the veranda and we can talk about the good old days while we sip our drinks and watch the sun set.  


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 7:35 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Russ its art imitating life. I saw the electromagnets used at the universal studios Volcano Bay theme park in Orlando that help pull the log ride carriages "up" small segments of their water flume ride. Being an electrical engineer I initially thought it might actually scale to model railroading. Then I started thinking abut the cost and challenges and went back to drinking my Mai Tai......

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Brian Kopp
 

Russ its art imitating life. I saw the electromagnets used at the universal studios Volcano Bay theme park in Orlando that help pull the log ride carriages "up" small segments of their water flume ride. Being an electrical engineer I initially thought it might actually scale to model railroading. Then I started thinking abut the cost and challenges and went back to drinking my Mai Tai......

--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Russ Norris
 

One thing you could never accuse this group of is a lack of imagination. 


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:01 AM Brian Kopp <kc5lpa1@...> wrote:
Dale,
what do you think about building an HOn3 tractive effort enhancement system that is mounted under the steep grade? If we could ensure there was enough ferro-magnetic metals in the locomotive, then we could "pull" the locomotive toward the track on a steep grade by using a series of undertrack coils, thus enhancing tractive force! If you could sequentially turn on the coils the system would even help pull the locomotive up the grade.....

Other than rebuilding your workhorse HOn3 locos and taking the nickel metal out of all your HOn3 rolling stock it shouldn't cost but a few hundred dollars per grade.......

--
Brian Kopp (with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Jacksonville, FL


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Brian Kopp
 

Right! We will make max scale speed and then some!
--
Brian Kopp
Jacksonville, FL


Re: Fw: [HOn3] Figuring Grades

Mark Rosche
 

and if you power the magnets in sequence then you would have the first HOn3 Railgun 😁👍🏻😁👍🏻

Regards,

Mark

Don‘t take life too seriously...no one gets out alive anyway....