Date   

the Steve Hatch ventilated "box" cars

lloyd lehrer
 

Steve has sent me parts for 20 kits, and I am making 6. Which leaves 14 for anyone else to make. IF you  were one of those, kindly let me know and how many you want.  I will hold off a few days on dividing  them up amongst yourselves. So let me know if you want some.  I will pack them up and let you know what shipping costs are.  

I had been bugging Steve ever since he said he had more parts, hiding somewhere, and he shipped off this batch.  I have no info other than that as to who had asked for some from him. 

If you were one of the folks that sent him money, that is between you and him.  I am not doing this out of generosity, but out of my desire for more of them.  I have no idea if he has more in hiding up in the old storage space or anywhere else or if he will cast more. So dont ask me, and you now know all I know.

Send reply OFF Group to lloydlehrer@... and list your name, address and phone number. and how many you want.  There might be one or two extra parts when we are done so I will accept requests for those also.
lloyd lehrer, MANHATTAN BEACH, CA (310)951-9097

--
lloyd lehrer


Re: Prototype?

Mark Kasprowicz
 

I probably started this debate when I asked whether it was possible that the cars were offered in sets of two rather than five. I have both sets and it looks like one migrated from one box to another to add to the confusion. So thanks for the explanation Dale. But actually having pulled them out of what must be a fairly long slumber in their boxes they do look pretty good to these old eyes and may well head off into the spray booth. One has already been treated that way.

Mark K


Re: Prototype?

Climax@...
 

John, I don't know about you but at my age I need to stand at least 3 feet away to even see the car much less the detail unless I put on glasses.  My day of getting down to ground level and following the trains like a scale person disappeared in my 20's or 30's, and that was 40 to 45 years ago!
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Cytron
Sent: Oct 13, 2020 10:05 AM
To: "hon3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Prototype?

OK, I thought the issue was the importer, not the builder. I looked again at my 2 car set imported from PFM and it was made in Korea. The Korean cars look OK to me and are good enough.

Key also imported a 2 car set of Chili line cars from Korea in he '80's and I have those also. The painted PSC cars imported in the '90s and '00s are very good in my opinion. Basically, from 3 feet away the detail on all these cars (PFM, United, Samhongsa and others are good enough for me.

John


Re: Prototype?

John Cytron
 

OK, I thought the issue was the importer, not the builder. I looked again at my 2 car set imported from PFM and it was made in Korea. The Korean cars look OK to me and are good enough.

Key also imported a 2 car set of Chili line cars from Korea in he '80's and I have those also. The painted PSC cars imported in the '90s and '00s are very good in my opinion. Basically, from 3 feet away the detail on all these cars (PFM, United, Samhongsa and others are good enough for me.

John


Re: Prototype?

Dale Buxton
 

John and I both stated this correct and accurately.  "PFM ( UNITED ) only ever sold a 5 car D&RGW set, not a 2 car."  United was a Japanese company. SKI was the manufacturer of these two car sets in KOREA. All cars were certainly imported by PFM  but vastly different construction quality by these two the two different manufacturers. The United cars were manufactured in 1963 and 64. The SKI cars were manufactured in 1977. PFM was not entirely happy with their early experiences in Korea with SKI. They went back to Japan and developed a smaller production run program with their builders there. Soon after that PFM went back to Korea and developed Samhongsa as a manufacturer. Samhongsa basically built the whole world of brass trains over the next three decades. I don't believe John or I were splitting hairs in any way shape or form when we said that UNITED never made a 2 car, D&RGW, passenger car set in HOn3 for PFM. 

Dale Buxton

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:37 PM Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:
Here's a photo of the box for PFM 2 Car set that they didn't sell.


Re: Prototype?

Mark Kasprowicz
 

I haven't got one of these either. Reminds me...

Yesterday upon the stair I met a met a man who wasn't there,
He wasn't there again today, Oh how I wish he'd go away!

Mark K


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

John Stutz
 

Thanks Ken

You have a much better appreciation of the potential problems than I did. 

But for all that, the injector was the preferred choice for getting water into the boiler, which suggests that it had a lot going for it, compaired to the alternatives.

John Stutz

On October 12, 2020 at 8:51 PM "Kent Hinton via groups.io" <keh_bier@...> wrote:

Based on personal experience, I’d second John’s notion that operator error may be the most common failure.  An example would be dialing down the feed water flow to allow for a longer sustained injection and reducing the frequency with which you need to inject, then forgetting to open it back up when you close the injector.

From training materials we use at Roots of Motive Power in Willits, CA for the Monitor Edna Type-A screw injector, reasons the injector will not prime include:

- No water in the tank.
- Tank valve is closed.
- Water supply pipe or strainer is clogged.
- Injector water supply valve is closed.
- Air leaks in the suction (water supply) pipe.
- Water in the supply pipe is too hot.
- Overflow valve is closed.
- Defective steam valve or nozzle inside the injector.
- Obstructed boiler check valve.
- Obstructed line (injector exit) check valve.
- Obstructed delivery pipe (nozzle) or the combining and condensing tubes.
- Steam valve to the injector not fully open.
- Insufficient water to condense the steam, due to the water valve or the tank valve not being fully open. (See my example above.)

Nearly half of the above fall under the operator error category.

We’ve also had issues with a Sellers MS injector which our Chief Engineer attributed to a partially fouled delivery check valve which allowed steam from the boiler to back flow into the injector, causing it to overheat and making it difficult to achieve lift.

Kent Hinton



On Oct 11, 2020, at 7:59 PM, "Climax@..." <Climax@... wrote:

John:
This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 10:48 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Lee

I cannot claim much knowledge on the subject, just the basics and a few details.  Injectors came in three basic types: the familiar lifting injector placed high on the boiler, and less known non-lifting injector placed under the cab, which can powered by either full boiler pressure steam or exhaust steam. 

Lifting injectors lift water from the tender or tanks by generating a partial vacuum using a steam jet.  If the water or the injector is too hot, the water will boil and the injector cannot lift it.  Internally the injector is a precise arrangement of concentric converging and diverging cones: A steam jet and venturi for drawing in water and accelerating it, a mixing cone where the steam is condensed, and a pressure cone where the jet's impact builds the pressure needed to force the water into the boiler.  Don't ask me how or why it works - I'm just reporting on what I find in drawings.  But if the feed water contains any suspended grit, or is unusually hard, abrasion or deposition that reshapes the cones will degrade the injector's performance, to possible failure.

With non-lifting injectors, the feed problem is the possibility of drowning the injector with too much water.  They are also subject to the same degradation of the cones.  The exhaust steam version required auxiliary steam from the boiler when the engine was not working, and perhaps on starting, making their construction and operation more complicated than full pressure injectors. These were a fairly late development, say late 1920s, and the only North American narrow gauge use that I am aware of was on the Uintah and NdeM Mallets, and the White Pass 70 & 71.

Probably the most common source of injector failure was operator error, due largely to the multiplicity of designs, each with their unique details and often idiosyncratic operating quirks.

John Stutz
On October 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 



On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 

 

 


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Kent Hinton
 

Based on personal experience, I’d second John’s notion that operator error may be the most common failure.  An example would be dialing down the feed water flow to allow for a longer sustained injection and reducing the frequency with which you need to inject, then forgetting to open it back up when you close the injector.

From training materials we use at Roots of Motive Power in Willits, CA for the Monitor Edna Type-A screw injector, reasons the injector will not prime include:

- No water in the tank.
- Tank valve is closed.
- Water supply pipe or strainer is clogged.
- Injector water supply valve is closed.
- Air leaks in the suction (water supply) pipe.
- Water in the supply pipe is too hot.
- Overflow valve is closed.
- Defective steam valve or nozzle inside the injector.
- Obstructed boiler check valve.
- Obstructed line (injector exit) check valve.
- Obstructed delivery pipe (nozzle) or the combining and condensing tubes.
- Steam valve to the injector not fully open.
- Insufficient water to condense the steam, due to the water valve or the tank valve not being fully open. (See my example above.)

Nearly half of the above fall under the operator error category.

We’ve also had issues with a Sellers MS injector which our Chief Engineer attributed to a partially fouled delivery check valve which allowed steam from the boiler to back flow into the injector, causing it to overheat and making it difficult to achieve lift.

Kent Hinton


On Oct 11, 2020, at 7:59 PM, "Climax@..." <Climax@... wrote:


John:
This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 10:48 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Lee

I cannot claim much knowledge on the subject, just the basics and a few details.  Injectors came in three basic types: the familiar lifting injector placed high on the boiler, and less known non-lifting injector placed under the cab, which can powered by either full boiler pressure steam or exhaust steam. 

Lifting injectors lift water from the tender or tanks by generating a partial vacuum using a steam jet.  If the water or the injector is too hot, the water will boil and the injector cannot lift it.  Internally the injector is a precise arrangement of concentric converging and diverging cones: A steam jet and venturi for drawing in water and accelerating it, a mixing cone where the steam is condensed, and a pressure cone where the jet's impact builds the pressure needed to force the water into the boiler.  Don't ask me how or why it works - I'm just reporting on what I find in drawings.  But if the feed water contains any suspended grit, or is unusually hard, abrasion or deposition that reshapes the cones will degrade the injector's performance, to possible failure.

With non-lifting injectors, the feed problem is the possibility of drowning the injector with too much water.  They are also subject to the same degradation of the cones.  The exhaust steam version required auxiliary steam from the boiler when the engine was not working, and perhaps on starting, making their construction and operation more complicated than full pressure injectors. These were a fairly late development, say late 1920s, and the only North American narrow gauge use that I am aware of was on the Uintah and NdeM Mallets, and the White Pass 70 & 71.

Probably the most common source of injector failure was operator error, due largely to the multiplicity of designs, each with their unique details and often idiosyncratic operating quirks.

John Stutz
On October 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 



On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 

 


Re: Caboose question

Dale Buxton
 

Thank you Chris. 

I could not have put it better. The old Caboose was CABOOSE! This last Phoenix is just a pale imitation of it’s forbearer.

Dale Buxton


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:46 claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:
While I believe it premature to shovel dirt on Caboose LTD, as they have not officially thrown in the towel, let’s be real.

Caboose Hobbies died the day Dwayne announced that they were retiring. The stock got sold, the store emptied, and months later, the building was town down.

Caboose LTD of Lakewood bought a customer list, the name, many of the store fixtures, and whatever pathetic left over crap Dwayne’s crew didn’t sell. They also stocked with brand new items, they believed would sell, and to a large extent that was true, as most of the initial stock has sold. Bluntly, everyone wanted and expected the old Caboose, which was neither possible, nor realistic. Even Old Caboose wasn’t the old Caboose from years before, and that false expectation, severely hurt the new store. 

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Oct 12, 2020, at 12:32 PM, Mark Lewis <narrowrails12@...> wrote:

Chris,

Thanks for your input.
Sounds like a sad ending to an iconic model railroad brick and mortar hobby shop. 

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:28 PM claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:
Unfortunately, I don’t have anything of substance to add. They are neither out of business, nor are they open, save for their eBay offerings.

They reorganized as a public benefit corporation, and are in a weird limbo until they finish with that, is my understanding.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Oct 12, 2020, at 12:23 PM, Mark Lewis <narrowrails12@...> wrote:

Maybe if Chris Lane is monitoring this group, today, and he has some current info on CABOOSE, he could add to this conversation.

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.





Re: Caboose question

John Cytron
 

If you use the old Cabbose URL of caboosehobbies.com, you may get a "no connection to server" message or similar. The newer URL is mycaboose.com   and when you use that as the URL, you will get a "Down for Maintenance" message. The company is building a new website. It is still around. Chris Pomeranz (I think that is his name), a former manager at Athearn, will be running the company. I wish them well.

John


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Nolan Hinshaw
 

On Oct 12, 2020, at 14:13, Earl Knoob <earlk489@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]

The cold water, in addition to knocking the steam pressure to hell, produced extra stresses on the boiler.
One way to mitigate that was to admit the water to the top of the boiler and have a trough running the length with holes in it to allow the water to acquire more heat[0] gradually, and OhByTheWay, a side effect was to precipitate minerals which could form scale or contribute to foaming.

[0] and possibly increase temperature


Re: Prototype?

Wayne
 

Here's a photo of the box for PFM 2 Car set that they didn't sell.


Re: Caboose question

claneon30
 

Sorry, Clint but you are totally wrong. The owner is HO and his layout is based on the Monon.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Oct 12, 2020, at 5:43 PM, clint watkins <Shadowrock39@...> wrote:

The one problem I was looking at in the beginning is that the guy who bought it is a 3 Railer Lionel person. So there you have it. No Reality for the Majority in the Hobby. Only the unreal , no Dimensions of whatever. 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 1:11 PM duncan <train3guy@...> wrote:
I hope the new Caboose Ltd. is able to put things together and become a 
success.  Trouble is they made too many mistakes in the beginning and it 
will be very hard to overcome the loss of customers those mistakes cost 
them.  They've been reworking the organization for an extended period of 
time now - going on over half a year.  They need to get open soon, as 
the big busy season is upon them - now through the end of January.  If 
not open soon, they will loose a lot of potential business.  I am 
hopeful they can pull it off!

                                                         Duncan Harvey - 
employee of the old store for the last nineteen years









Re: Prototype?

John
 

What about these cars by PFM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253629346412


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 4:56 PM, John Hutnick
<johnhutnick@...> wrote:
To add to all of this discussion what is the best of my knowledge on HOn3 D&RGW brass passenger cars from Japan:
PFM United only ever sold a 5 car D&RGW set, not 2 car.
Balboa sold a made in Japan 4 car San Juan set, maybe KTM.
Balboa also sold single coaches and a parlor car.
NJCB sold 2 car 2 different sets, Kumata.
Soho sold single coaches made in Japan(and RGS Edna)
There are various cars made in Korea from PFM, Key, Berlyn, etc.

HOn3 is not my primary scale/gauge.  So I do not want to fool with HOn3 models overly much, worry about what pipe is right/wrong, whose casting that I cannot see underneath is better, and so on.  So I tend to Japanese items.  They simply have fewer things that bend and fewer solder joints that break.  What I do not want is to have something on the workbench and be concerned about damage.  If I am soldering together anything in any scale for myself, I want to pull on each part and have it stay there.  To move a brass 5-car set on a layout, you need a K-class engine.



Re: Prototype?

John Hutnick
 

To add to all of this discussion what is the best of my knowledge on HOn3 D&RGW brass passenger cars from Japan:
PFM United only ever sold a 5 car D&RGW set, not 2 car.
Balboa sold a made in Japan 4 car San Juan set, maybe KTM.
Balboa also sold single coaches and a parlor car.
NJCB sold 2 car 2 different sets, Kumata.
Soho sold single coaches made in Japan(and RGS Edna)
There are various cars made in Korea from PFM, Key, Berlyn, etc.

HOn3 is not my primary scale/gauge.  So I do not want to fool with HOn3 models overly much, worry about what pipe is right/wrong, whose casting that I cannot see underneath is better, and so on.  So I tend to Japanese items.  They simply have fewer things that bend and fewer solder joints that break.  What I do not want is to have something on the workbench and be concerned about damage.  If I am soldering together anything in any scale for myself, I want to pull on each part and have it stay there.  To move a brass 5-car set on a layout, you need a K-class engine.



Re: Caboose question

clint watkins
 

The one problem I was looking at in the beginning is that the guy who bought it is a 3 Railer Lionel person. So there you have it. No Reality for the Majority in the Hobby. Only the unreal , no Dimensions of whatever. 


On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 1:11 PM duncan <train3guy@...> wrote:
I hope the new Caboose Ltd. is able to put things together and become a
success.  Trouble is they made too many mistakes in the beginning and it
will be very hard to overcome the loss of customers those mistakes cost
them.  They've been reworking the organization for an extended period of
time now - going on over half a year.  They need to get open soon, as
the big busy season is upon them - now through the end of January.  If
not open soon, they will loose a lot of potential business.  I am
hopeful they can pull it off!

                                                         Duncan Harvey -
employee of the old store for the last nineteen years








Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Randy Hees
 

Before injectors, cross head pumps were used.  They were driven off the locomotives piston rods.  The down side was you had to move to put water in the boiler.  Some locomotives had pumps to suck water.  I have used such a pump on a steam tractor to put water in the boiler.  Additionally steam fire engines used thier pumps to put water in the boiler commonly.  I believe that an injector uses less steam.

Randy Hees

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 7:59 PM <Climax@...> wrote:
John:
This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 10:48 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Lee

I cannot claim much knowledge on the subject, just the basics and a few details.  Injectors came in three basic types: the familiar lifting injector placed high on the boiler, and less known non-lifting injector placed under the cab, which can powered by either full boiler pressure steam or exhaust steam. 

Lifting injectors lift water from the tender or tanks by generating a partial vacuum using a steam jet.  If the water or the injector is too hot, the water will boil and the injector cannot lift it.  Internally the injector is a precise arrangement of concentric converging and diverging cones: A steam jet and venturi for drawing in water and accelerating it, a mixing cone where the steam is condensed, and a pressure cone where the jet's impact builds the pressure needed to force the water into the boiler.  Don't ask me how or why it works - I'm just reporting on what I find in drawings.  But if the feed water contains any suspended grit, or is unusually hard, abrasion or deposition that reshapes the cones will degrade the injector's performance, to possible failure.

With non-lifting injectors, the feed problem is the possibility of drowning the injector with too much water.  They are also subject to the same degradation of the cones.  The exhaust steam version required auxiliary steam from the boiler when the engine was not working, and perhaps on starting, making their construction and operation more complicated than full pressure injectors. These were a fairly late development, say late 1920s, and the only North American narrow gauge use that I am aware of was on the Uintah and NdeM Mallets, and the White Pass 70 & 71.

Probably the most common source of injector failure was operator error, due largely to the multiplicity of designs, each with their unique details and often idiosyncratic operating quirks.

John Stutz
On October 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 



On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 

 


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Climax@...
 


Great information and answers a lot of questions Earl.  Thank you .
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Knoob
Sent: Oct 12, 2020 5:13 PM
To: "HOn3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

The great advantage of injectors is that they heat the water being injected into the boiler.  An injector will take water at ambient temperature and by combining the water with the steam, will heat the water up to 180 degrees.  While still less than the 280 degrees or so water boiling at 200psi, it was a big improvement over simply pumping cold water into the boiler.  The cold water, in addition to knocking the steam pressure to hell, produced extra stresses on the boiler.

Some railroads in Central America used crosshead pumps until they gave up steam in the 1960's.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog@...>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)
 
On Oct 11, 2020, at 19:59, Climax@... <Climax@...> wrote:
>
> John:
> This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Take a good look at early lithographic drawings of locos, especially 4-4-0s, and you may notice a crosshead-driven piston with pipes leading to/from it.







Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Earl Knoob
 

The great advantage of injectors is that they heat the water being injected into the boiler.  An injector will take water at ambient temperature and by combining the water with the steam, will heat the water up to 180 degrees.  While still less than the 280 degrees or so water boiling at 200psi, it was a big improvement over simply pumping cold water into the boiler.  The cold water, in addition to knocking the steam pressure to hell, produced extra stresses on the boiler.

Some railroads in Central America used crosshead pumps until they gave up steam in the 1960's.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog@...>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 12:19 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)
 
On Oct 11, 2020, at 19:59, Climax@... <Climax@...> wrote:
>
> John:
> This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Take a good look at early lithographic drawings of locos, especially 4-4-0s, and you may notice a crosshead-driven piston with pipes leading to/from it.







Re: Caboose question

duncan
 

I hope the new Caboose Ltd. is able to put things together and become a success.  Trouble is they made too many mistakes in the beginning and it will be very hard to overcome the loss of customers those mistakes cost them.  They've been reworking the organization for an extended period of time now - going on over half a year.  They need to get open soon, as the big busy season is upon them - now through the end of January.  If not open soon, they will loose a lot of potential business.  I am hopeful they can pull it off!

                                                        Duncan Harvey - employee of the old store for the last nineteen years

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