Date   

DRG #168 - Major Assemblies

Glenn Butcher
 

I think I've finally got a set of parts to capture the essence of a T-12 engine:



All loosely assembled because I can't find my box of 0-80 bolts and nuts.  The essential components are:

1. Frame/Cylinder/Chest/Valvegear Hangar
2. Smokebox/Boiler/Firebox
3. Smokebox Front
4, Firebox Backhead (not in picture, see below)
5. Cab/CabFloor

All of these fit together and are held in place with two 0-80 bolts, one through the cylinder chest to the frame, the other through the backhead bottom and cab floor tab to the frame.  What I'm trying to end up with here are a basic set of parts for quickly standing up a T-12, to be decorated into any of the specific locomotives/eras.  I'm about ready to open a github repository with these five .stl files, which would let others give them a try either by printing themselves or outsourcing to someplace like Shapeways.

Still, a lot of discovery in this latest set of prints.  For instance, I tried to include the handrail stanchions on the boiler assembly, but they didn't survive washing/curing.  I may try to print them unsupported (I may have been too agressive cutting off the supports), or just abandon them altogether and leave installation to a drill hole for whatever part someone might come up with.  Also, this was the second try at the valve gear hangar; I tried to include the guides, but they don't seem to retain dimension well enough to participate in the mechanical action of guiding the crosshead back and forth.  Some things are just better in metal, I think...

And, this is still a work-in-progress.  Still working out the mechanics of pilot truck mounting (trivial) and piston/valve gear integration (not so trivial), and there's still no accommodation for powering the little beastie (got a line on some nice motors, thanks to posts here!)

Anyway, the purpose of this post is to assess interest in the five .stl files.  That would include, "yeah, I'd print (any of) those", and/or "I won't print them until they include X" sort of feedback, keeping in mind they're supposed to represent a basic T-12.

g


Re: Blackstone K-27

jake3404@...
 

Excellent Fuzzy,

I have bookmarked your website and will definitely keep you in mind if I have problems with my brass locos. 


Re: Blackstone K-27

Climax@...
 

I think from what I have been told that was the problem with the Bachmann Sepectrum Shay and Climax series, the gears were of the same material and wore out after about 45 minutes of use.

-----Original Message-----
From: <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Jul 12, 2022 3:05 PM
To: <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Blackstone K-27

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Alec,

Yes is the short answer. Apart from ensuring that the worm's pitch is correct you should use dissimilar materials for worm and gear. If they are both the same they will wear quickly. I'm not sure what BS gears are made of but they look'Nylonish' using the original brass one would prevent any such problem.

Mark K

 


Re: Blackstone K-27

Mark Kasprowicz
 
Edited

Alec,

Yes is the short answer. Apart from ensuring that the worm's pitch is correct you should use dissimilar materials for worm and gear. If they are both the same they will wear quickly. I'm not sure what BS gears are made of but they look'Nylonish' using the original brass one would prevent any such problem.

Mark K


Re: Blackstone K-27

Alec Herman
 

Mark,
I was still waiting on my gear puller when I first did the motor conversion so I just used a nylon worm.  I have the gear puller now, so I should pull the gear off of the old motor and put it on the new one.

Gavin, 
It seized completely.  It really didn't run much.

Alec


Re: Blackstone K-27

Robert Bell
 

Gavin, 
I don't think you will harm anything.  the first run of the BS K27s had issues with being over-lubed at the factory.  The motors will easily take 12v as that is what the decoder will pass on the motor.  My K27 is first-run (2006), and the hot-wire method fixed it for several years.  Finally, back in 2018, after the loco had mostly been a "box queen" since it was new, the motor would barely run even on the straight 12v DC.  I had to order a replacement from BS, which are apparently no longer available.  So, good luck!!!

Rob Bell
Modeling the White Pass & Yukon Route in HOn3
Waynesville, NC




On Tuesday, July 12, 2022, 12:57:56 AM EDT, zoooctan via groups.io <zoooctan@...> wrote:


Hi Alec thank you for sharing this. While it's nice to know there may be alternative motors, I can only hope one of the members assembles a kit for sale which could then be used to replace the current one. I'm no means an expert on these engines. 

Alec wrt to your old motor burning out, do you have an educated guess on what happened?
Was it
- the constant (one week) DC power ups?
- actual heavy running that caused wear and tear?
- or was it just that the over-lubed motor that was always going to be prone to failure?

Just wondering as I'm into day 3 of my one week DC intermittent power starts (as per your past experience) and am wondering if I should stop  (as this is harming the motor). Having said this, I am using my old Marklin z scale throttle so really the maximum amount of voltage this is capable of supplying is actually 10V

Thanks
Gavin 


Re: Blackstone K-27

zoooctan
 

Hi Alec thank you for sharing this. While it's nice to know there may be alternative motors, I can only hope one of the members assembles a kit for sale which could then be used to replace the current one. I'm no means an expert on these engines. 

Alec wrt to your old motor burning out, do you have an educated guess on what happened?
Was it
- the constant (one week) DC power ups?
- actual heavy running that caused wear and tear?
- or was it just that the over-lubed motor that was always going to be prone to failure?

Just wondering as I'm into day 3 of my one week DC intermittent power starts (as per your past experience) and am wondering if I should stop  (as this is harming the motor). Having said this, I am using my old Marklin z scale throttle so really the maximum amount of voltage this is capable of supplying is actually 10V

Thanks
Gavin 


Re: Blackstone K-27

Scale Brass Mechanic
 

Jake, Fuzzy here for Scale Brass Mechanic. I live in Salida, Colorado and I am friends of LocoDoc. He has retired,  early onset dementia.
I have not taken his place but have forged my own on a different business model. 
I do repair, remotor, DCC installs on Brass mostly. Have done a few remotor on Blackstone. No big deal.
To date over 300 locos across country and 5 international clients.
Will be in Tacoma in 6 weeks giving clinics and tables with 4 sale.
Thanks again 🚂👍 Fuzzy for Scale Brass Mechanic 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 3:49 PM jake3404 via groups.io <jake3404=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I ordered some of those motors Mark.

Havent gotten them yet. i hope they work. I have two K-27s on the bench right now.

As far as the conversion kits. There used to be a guy in Colorado called "Loco Doc" that made conversion kits for upgrading brass locomotives, so the concept has been done. He has retired now and I have not heard of anyone else taking up the mantle.


Re: Blackstone K-27

jake3404@...
 

I ordered some of those motors Mark.

Havent gotten them yet. i hope they work. I have two K-27s on the bench right now.

As far as the conversion kits. There used to be a guy in Colorado called "Loco Doc" that made conversion kits for upgrading brass locomotives, so the concept has been done. He has retired now and I have not heard of anyone else taking up the mantle.


Re: Blackstone K-27

claneon30
 

Let us know Fuzzy…

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 11:38 AM, Scale Brass Mechanic <scalebrassmech@...> wrote:

Chris, maybe that person should be me. I've done some moto retro to Blackstone. I'll check it out to see and validate.
Thanks 👍🚂 Fuzzy for Scale Brass Mechanic 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:54 AM claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:
If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving. 

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K 
England.





Re: Blackstone K-27

Mark Kasprowicz
 

Not sure about a business opportunity, but certainly a chance to get first run K-27's running again.

Here's the Ebay reference again: Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor ( 264469424723 )
And contact Sven for the 1mm id to 1.5 od sleeves at www.Tramfabriek.nl The reference is `AD1015' - you choose the length.
You will need access to a gear puller to remove the worm and flywheel/ sound wheel.

BTW I noticed alec very nice conversion using TRAMFABRIEK 1020 but I noticed a Nylon?? worm. Mine were all brass.

Mark K


Re: Blackstone K-27

Scale Brass Mechanic
 

Climax, I have a gear axel set (metal gears) coming from bachmann to fix 70 ton 3 truck climax.. But they only allow 2 at a time to be sold. More posts when have fix finished. 🚂👍
FUZZY for Scale Brass Mechanic 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 11:54 AM <Climax@...> wrote:

great idea!  Maybe even kits for the C-25's and C-16's too.  As far as that goes with the utter disappointment people have with the Bachmann Spectrum Shays and Climax locomotives and the quantity of them other there that are basically expensive scenery one would think that a repair kit could be made for them too.  I know they are HO gauge but they are still good looking if not expensive scenery......more like engine house queens today.  Bachmann has not stood behind their warrantee from day one and am surprised that a class action has not been brought against them.

DB

-----Original Message-----
From: <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Jul 11, 2022 1:25 PM
To: <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Blackstone K-27

 

If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.

 


Re: July RMC Editorial on NG diesels

John Stutz
 

Paul

Cheaper perhaps, if you can find or make the shorter than North American  standard wheelbase trucks, but these are big engines, recycled North American SG power and retain their original width and height.  The EMD DDM45 on Brazil's Victoria a Minas (EFVM) was the original version: 85 slightly lengthened SD45s on 4-axle meter (39.37") gauge trucks.  The Brazilian BB+BB conversions of second hand US CC diesels are significantly cheaper than new construction.  The extra motors serve as much to spread the power (and heat) over motors that are necessarily shorter than SG motors, as they serve to spread the weight.  Despite its meter gauge, the EFVM is a heavy haul iron ore export railroad, and needs the same sort of power as US iron ore railroads.  Queensland's larger 42" gauge diesels were similarly purchased for their coal export traffic.

The more common meter and 42" gauge export power generally had a smaller cross section, roughly the same width and height as the White Pass Alcos - which were a standard NG export design.  While the DL-535E was specific to the White Pass, earlier high nose versions were widely distributed, and even built under license in Spain for South America and in India.  For a decade or two, DL-535's were standard Indian Railways meter gauge power.   GE's U12C was their DL-535  equivalent, and EMD's GT-18C was only slightly more powerful, although EMD's NG traction motor could not fit between 3' gauge wheel sets.  Both, along with the larger GE UxxCs and the EMD's G22C, GT22C, G26C and GT26C, saw considerable use in South America.  The EFVM had purchased both GT22C's and GT26C's before ordering the DDM45s.

For further information search for individual types, or see:

And for steam enthusiasts: this dominance of  North American NG locomotive production, by the export market, was just as strong in the first half of the 20'th century as in the second half.  For an extreme example: of the nearly 200 North American built NG Mallets, only a dozen remained on the continent - the 2 Uintah and 10 NdM 2-6-6-2s.  For a taste of 20'th century North American NG steam exports, see Bruce Prior's http://narrowmind.railfan.net.  It can be argued that from about 1890 on, domestic NG locomotive purchases were little more than the tail of the dog - a mix of obsolescent traditional types (F&CC, ET&WNC, ...) and those developed for export.  All of the 100+ NG Mikados were export derived, as well as the 90+ outside framed engines.

John Stutz

On July 9, 2022 5:20 PM Paul Sturtz <apa_208@...> wrote:


The Wuiske diesels are nice but pretty expensive to experiment with, plus they represent heavy mainline service.  If you were looking for heavy power, it would be cheaper to go this route:


Paul


Re: Blackstone K-27

Climax@...
 

great idea!  Maybe even kits for the C-25's and C-16's too.  As far as that goes with the utter disappointment people have with the Bachmann Spectrum Shays and Climax locomotives and the quantity of them other there that are basically expensive scenery one would think that a repair kit could be made for them too.  I know they are HO gauge but they are still good looking if not expensive scenery......more like engine house queens today.  Bachmann has not stood behind their warrantee from day one and am surprised that a class action has not been brought against them.

DB

-----Original Message-----
From: <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Jul 11, 2022 1:25 PM
To: <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Blackstone K-27

 

If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.

 


Re: Blackstone K-27

Climax@...
 

I agree and include the contracts to get the sleeve and motor.  These K-27's by Blackstone are work horses and not the glass case premodern's we associate Brass Models as, and that's from a person who has probably 300+ brass locomotives in glass cases. hahahhha  I already send in an order based on this information just to have a spare when the current motor dies.

Has anyone heard form Blackstone on what the future is on Locomotives and cars?

 

DB

 

-----Original Message-----
From: <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Jul 11, 2022 1:25 PM
To: <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Blackstone K-27

 

If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.

 


Re: Blackstone K-27

Scale Brass Mechanic
 

Chris, maybe that person should be me. I've done some moto retro to Blackstone. I'll check it out to see and validate.
Thanks 👍🚂 Fuzzy for Scale Brass Mechanic 

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022, 10:54 AM claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:
If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.


Re: Blackstone K-27

claneon30
 

If this works Mark, a good business opportunity to someone to lay in a supply and offer a “kit” with instructions for the swap.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual
chrislaneon30@...



On Jul 11, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:

This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.


Re: Blackstone K-27

Alec Herman
 
Edited

The motor eventually burnt out completely.  I replaced the motor in mine with a Tramfabriek 1020D coreless motor.  I mounted it with 3D printed motor mounts.  It runs smoother than my other K-27s.  It also has a LokSound decoder installed.


Re: July RMC Editorial on NG diesels

Robert Bell
 

Richard,

There was an article in a mid-1990s RMC0n modeling the wide cab version.  I will look later for which issue.

Rob Bell
Modeling the White Pass & Yukon Route in HOn3
Waynesville, NC




On Sunday, July 10, 2022, 01:00:53 PM EDT, Richard Johnson <killroy321@...> wrote:


I really want some USG plaster city WP diesels.  I have the psc kit for the one you modeled there in 3d but I wanted the upated wide cab version so i was going to try cutting up plastic cabs and make them fit the brass kit to size.   There was a guy on instagram that lives locally here in San Diego that built one in 3d but he sold the rights to his design to company that might produce it RTR.  I dont feel like waiting if I can get a shell made up to fit my brass chassis.
Regards all
Rich Johnson


www.RichardSJohnson.net 

"Those who enjoy freedom must endeavor to preserve it."


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms"
Thomas Jefferson



From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Zach Pabis <zachpabis@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2022 1:31 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [HOn3] July RMC Editorial on NG diesels
 
For those curious, I'm working on a few of WP&Y diesels for a customer. This DL535e is mostly 3D printed on a narrowed Kato RSD chassis. The customer really wanted to use this chassis so the model is a little oversize, but otherwise pretty spot on. These are definitely not RTR and I probably won't make any more, but I think this is how the future of the hobby will look. With waning interest for narrow gauge stuff, modellers will be turning to modern digital manufacturing technologies to help them build models themselves. I would like to see more drive components though, as you can't really print that. I will be selling the 3D files for this and a scale version of the shell on my website soon.

-Zach

On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 1:45 PM Geodyssey <east@...> wrote:

I also read that article and I agree that not only narrow gauge diesels are needed, but small locos (less than 80 tons) would also be welcome in standard gauge.

The EMD G8, 12, 16 series works for both.

Approx zero chance Rapido will not be doing a NG diesel. Looking at their poorly rendered PA-1, that's a good thing.

On the other hand, this 3D-printed narrow gauge box cab diesel was made using a $300 home printer on a Bachmann 45-ton side rod chassis.  It was one of the creator's first projects yet it's VERY well done.  The sheet metal sides are completely smooth, no "stripes" from the printing process.  It's nicer than many injection molded styrene models.

"Part 2: Building a 3D Printed AGEIR Style 45 Ton Boxcab Diesel With Side Rods In Hon3"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCo-bpQjB8M

Rob Simpson



-----------------------------------------------------
Art,

Yes..I did read the Perspective article in the July issue of RMC.

My mind went directly to thinking of the various White Pass & Yukon diesel locomotives that could be produced in RTR HOn3.
Now...will someone at Rapido or Scale Trains, see the business viability of actually producing such locomotives?

Mark Lewis
Narrow gauge modeling in N.C.


Re: Blackstone K-27

Mark Kasprowicz
 

This might be the answer - mine arrived this morning and from first glance they are a direct fit into the K-27 cradle. Even the electrical connections appear to be similar. The end spacer also looks to be a straightforward swap. The shafts though are smaller - haven't had a chance to measure them but from memory 1mm on the replacement v. 1.5mm for the original. Tramfambriek.nl will supply the correct sleeving.

At $1.99 per motor it's from ebay.

Mini N20 Dual Shaft Motor DC6V-12V High Speed Micro 10mm*12mm Electric Toy Motor
( 264469424723 )

Mark K
England.