Date   

Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

John Stutz
 

Dave

Very likely. A large tank full of anything needs to be very securely braced to the car frame. Otherwise the shell will just keep right on going when slack runs in or out sharply, and the car gets jerked hard. Same as any heavy object slides around in a pickup bed if it is not braced or tied down. With wooden cars, and tank shells restrained by head blocks, it was not unknown for the end of a slightly loose shell to get bashed in by sliding hard against a well braced head block. In the early 1900's the MCB had a standard for reinforcing such damaged tank shell ends, which applied to tank cars offered for interchange. I believe there is a drawing in the 1904 Carbuilder's Dictionary, available online.

John

On 07/25/2018 04:38 AM, Climax@Mindspring.com wrote:
John:
the end beams sound very similar to the ones that Northeastern put on the Vinegar Tank cars in the Ambroid 1 of 5000 series.
DAve
-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz <john.c.stutz@nasa.gov>
Sent: Jul 24, 2018 11:21 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Flat Car Water Car Question?

Dusty

A full length tank is pretty well self supporting, so does not need much to hold
it up. Four transverse bolster blocks, one over each body bolster and needle
beam, each with a tie down strap, will suffice. The White Pass even built a
couple cars in the thirties that had a ~10' long shell over each truck, and
these were on 30' stock car frames with only 8" deep sills.

What is critical is to keep the tank from sliding lengthwise under the impact of
slack running in or out. With wooden framed construction this was usually
achieved by providing heavy timber head blocks at each end, shaped to match the
tank head and well keyed and bolted into the car frame. This approach persisted
well into the steel car era, and on the White Pass with new tank cars built up
to about 1950, using circa 1910 UTLX Van Dyke (a.k.a. Gramps) shells on ex-USATC
steel car frames.

See the early Car Builder's Dictionaries, up to about 1910, for details of
prototype construction using wooden underframes.

John Stutz

On 07/24/2018 04:14 PM, Dusty wrote:


3000 for perspective, 26' light sill, 30' 6000ish. Any opinions on which flat
for my free lance water car? Tank cradle could be 6" lower. Dome could be
lowered. Flat top dome with C-16 water hatch? Tank will always be a crappy AHM
casting.

Dusty Burman

--


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

Climax@...
 

John:
the end beams sound very similar to the ones that Northeastern put on the Vinegar Tank cars in the Ambroid 1 of 5000 series.
DAve

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz <john.c.stutz@nasa.gov>
Sent: Jul 24, 2018 11:21 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Flat Car Water Car Question?

Dusty

A full length tank is pretty well self supporting, so does not need much to hold
it up. Four transverse bolster blocks, one over each body bolster and needle
beam, each with a tie down strap, will suffice. The White Pass even built a
couple cars in the thirties that had a ~10' long shell over each truck, and
these were on 30' stock car frames with only 8" deep sills.

What is critical is to keep the tank from sliding lengthwise under the impact of
slack running in or out. With wooden framed construction this was usually
achieved by providing heavy timber head blocks at each end, shaped to match the
tank head and well keyed and bolted into the car frame. This approach persisted
well into the steel car era, and on the White Pass with new tank cars built up
to about 1950, using circa 1910 UTLX Van Dyke (a.k.a. Gramps) shells on ex-USATC
steel car frames.

See the early Car Builder's Dictionaries, up to about 1910, for details of
prototype construction using wooden underframes.

John Stutz

On 07/24/2018 04:14 PM, Dusty wrote:


3000 for perspective, 26' light sill, 30' 6000ish. Any opinions on which flat
for my free lance water car? Tank cradle could be 6" lower. Dome could be
lowered. Flat top dome with C-16 water hatch? Tank will always be a crappy AHM
casting.

Dusty Burman


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

Mark Kasprowicz
 

They look good! We've got the same problem but bigger! In our case we have the tank but the flat car, which we think should be a D&RGW 4000 series car, eludes us. The 4000 survivors were all made into box outfit cars and although we can get hold of one, the feeling is that demolishing one for the tank would not be a great idea.

http://www.drhs315.org/blog/drhs-railcars/1890s-tank-car-discovered/

Mark


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

Dusty
 

Length perspective of PSC caboose vs short flat tank car.


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

John Stutz
 

Dusty

A full length tank is pretty well self supporting, so does not need much to hold it up. Four transverse bolster blocks, one over each body bolster and needle beam, each with a tie down strap, will suffice. The White Pass even built a couple cars in the thirties that had a ~10' long shell over each truck, and these were on 30' stock car frames with only 8" deep sills.

What is critical is to keep the tank from sliding lengthwise under the impact of slack running in or out. With wooden framed construction this was usually achieved by providing heavy timber head blocks at each end, shaped to match the tank head and well keyed and bolted into the car frame. This approach persisted well into the steel car era, and on the White Pass with new tank cars built up to about 1950, using circa 1910 UTLX Van Dyke (a.k.a. Gramps) shells on ex-USATC steel car frames.

See the early Car Builder's Dictionaries, up to about 1910, for details of prototype construction using wooden underframes.

John Stutz

On 07/24/2018 04:14 PM, Dusty wrote:
3000 for perspective, 26' light sill, 30' 6000ish. Any opinions on which flat for my free lance water car? Tank cradle could be 6" lower. Dome could be lowered. Flat top dome with C-16 water hatch? Tank will always be a crappy AHM casting.
Dusty Burman


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

 

Dusty,

 

The D&RGW car was numbered 06217.  It was built on a 6200 flat car.  This flat car is 36 feet end sill to end sill.  The dome was cut down. There is a drawing in the May 2004 Gazette.  The tank was removed in the 60’s and is now one of the tank car water tanks on the Durango & Silverton Railroad.  Nice models.

 

Bruce Dunlevy

 


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

ckodani@...
 

The endless variety is one reason I love narrow gauge!!! Dusty, both those cars look great. Of course, you also have to consider brake wheel placement: tall staff or on the deck? I think on the side sill like a totally modern flat would be cool-looking, although an anachronism (perhaps a very far-sighted shop foreman)? Then there’s ladders or none, and platform on one side, both, or none. All good options!!! For what it’s worth, I like your AHM tank castings. Keep modeling, and keep posting! Chris Kodani 


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

Randy Hees
 

It kind of depends on what you want...  the longer flat is better for a D&RGW water car who's number escapes me.... but was a Conoco tank from a wrecked car on a D&RGW flat...  If a California or Nevada car then the shorter flat makes sense...  The tank from the MDC old time tank car also makes sense for this kind of conversion.

Randy Hees


On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 4:14 PM Dusty <dustburm@q.com> wrote:


3000 for perspective, 26' light sill, 30' 6000ish. Any opinions on which flat for my free lance water car? Tank cradle could be 6" lower. Dome could be lowered. Flat top dome with C-16 water hatch? Tank will always be a crappy AHM casting.

Dusty Burman 


Re: Flat Car Water Car Question?

Dusty
 



3000 for perspective, 26' light sill, 30' 6000ish. Any opinions on which flat for my free lance water car? Tank cradle could be 6" lower. Dome could be lowered. Flat top dome with C-16 water hatch? Tank will always be a crappy AHM casting.

Dusty Burman 


Re: Backdrop Details

Paul Sturtz
 

Last one, folks.  I hope...…….Laundry, lintels under doors and windows, hoist above top door on General Store.


Re: Backdrop Details

Climax@...
 


Try BarMills clothes lines.  They are easy to work with and paint.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Sturtz
Sent: Jul 18, 2018 3:39 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Backdrop Details

Don
Please, no more suggestions!  Can't afford any more. On the left, note flock of birds in upper railing, lady looking over, man in window.

On the right, crow on the other upper railing with two more coming in, gal on railing.  Still looking for clotheslines...…….
Paul Sturtz


Re: Backdrop Details

Paul Sturtz
 

Don
Please, no more suggestions!  Can't afford any more. On the left, note flock of birds in upper railing, lady looking over, man in window.

On the right, crow on the other upper railing with two more coming in, gal on railing.  Still looking for clotheslines...…….
Paul Sturtz


Re: Stock car occasional progress

John Stutz
 

Regarding stock cars in general, Hundman Publishing has a "Stock Car Cyclopedia" (~$30), that illustrates the range of designs used, and gives examples of diverse and widespread practice. This is all on SG cars, but for any given era of car design, and specific type of car, there is no significant difference beyond size between the various gauges. The book covers designs from the late 1880s up to the the 1950s, mostly as reprints from Mainline Modeler articles, but beginning with an extensive review of cars from the late wooden framed freight car era, the source of most of the latter D&RGW NG freight stock.

John Stutz


Re: Stock car occasional progress

Ken Martin
 

Actually outside upper slats was a common feature in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s before the rule on how long a car could be loaded before having to unload for rest and feed.

An example look at the standard gauge MDC stock or the LaBelle stock car kit. 

Sometimes called a “Palace Stock Car” some had a rack that could have hay loaded on them for the cattle to feed on.

One design had troughs that could be filled with water for the cattle to drink.

Shipping livestock is a whole different area to study.

Ken Martin

On Jul 17, 2018, at 4:58 AM, ckodani via Groups.Io <ckodani@...> wrote:

I thought that upper slats in the outside was strictly a DRGW thing, but here’s a whole string of AT&SF cars with the same design. 





Re: Stock car occasional progress

ckodani@...
 


Re: Stock car occasional progress

ckodani@...
 

I thought that upper slats in the outside was strictly a DRGW thing, but here’s a whole string of AT&SF cars with the same design. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_car_(rail)#/media/File%3ASanta_Fe_stock_car_train_rev.jpg


Re: Stock car occasional progress

ckodani@...
 

Mark, first and foremost, thank you so much for being a steward of history! Without folks like you, narrow gauge equipment would no longer exist. And thanks for sharing your insight—“kick board” is now part of my modeling vocabulary. Jim’s picture is indeed very good, but if you’ve got more or can get more that you can share, please do!!! Chris Kodani 


Re: Stock car occasional progress

ckodani@...
 

Jim, wow, that’s a great picture! Thanks so much for posting!!! It makes me very glad that I’m not in the stock car cleaning business! I can’t imagine having to crawl in there to tidy up. I guess first class is on the 2nd floor—those poor sheep/hogs on 1st must have a messy ride! Chris Kodani


Re: Stock car occasional progress

Mark Kasprowicz
 

They're not I'm afraid. And there's no real evidence to say that the outside boards were for lettering either. In fact the photo from our website shows the lettering on the internal boards not the outside ones. The dimensional data, usually on the bottom right of the car, is on inside boards and it's the most concentrated of all the lettering on a stock car. If lettering was a consideration then I'd expect the boards in this area to be double skinned as well. I've taken a glance at Vic Stone's 'Taking Stock' and there's is no explanation for the arrangement while Jim Martlett's photo shows the single internal kick board arrangement on a double deck or sheep car and nothing above that.

My thoughts are simply this - if you apply boards to both sides of a line of posts, the result is more rigid than if you you place them all on one side as you're creating a box section. Given that the lower boards had to be kick proof, to form the box the upper boards had to be on the outside. The D&RGW was also not in the habit of spending money where it wasn't needed.

Finally, I was the project leader for the final stages of both DRHS stock cars and they are not double slatted. But I'm back over there in a month and have a few things to tidy up on the cars and if there is still doubt I'll post photos though Jim's is conclusive.

Mark Kasprowicz
Oxon, England


Re: Stock car occasional progress

Jim Marlett
 

I don’t think they are double slatted. In a double deck stock car, boards are added to the inside of the upper deck along the bottom to keep feet and legs from slipping through, but they are otherwise not double slatted. My personal opinion is that it was simply easier to attach long boards to the outside of the car. The boards near the top don’t get the pressure from livestock that the lower boards do, so they don’t need to be inside. Sheep are short. Cattle are taller, but their bodies aren’t nearly as tall as a railroad car – even a narrow gauge car. Here is a shot of the inside of the double decker at Cimarron.

On Jul 16, 2018, at 8:57 AM, ckodani via Groups.Io <ckodani@...> wrote:

Hey HOn3 folks, please excuse the cross-posting, but I think I found a partial answer to the "slats-on-the-outside" issue. Here's what I posted on the HOn30 group.

"Speaking of stock cars, check this out. I've been wondering about the outside slats on the upper half of the D&RGW stock cars for a while now. EVERYBODY can understand why slats should be on the inside (animals push on the inside, so putting slats on the inside makes sense). Check this out http://www.drhs315.org/blog/drhs-railcars/stock-cars/stock-car-progress/ The folks of DRHS did a restoration on a couple of stock cars, and they did a marvelous job of documenting each step. Some of the pictures show something shocking--the inside slats go all the way from the bottom to the very top of the car, BUT the outside slats are only on the upper half. Put another way, the upper half of the stock cars are...DOUBLE SLATED!!! My guess: the outside slats were strictly meant to act as letter boards, and would never be touched by the livestock, as the inside slats took all the beating from the pigs and sheep.

I would love to go and take a look at every stock car that the D&RGW ever had, and look inside to see if the inside slats go all the way up, but unfortunately, I live too far away. Perhaps we could put the power of a larger group to work. If anybody lives close to a museum with one of these cars, let's put this mystery to rest--look inside and tell us what you see!!!"

--Chris Kodani

7501 - 7520 of 8426