Date   

Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Climax@...
 

John:
This is really going to show my stupidity, but with all this fiddling around with injectors and potential problems why didn't they just use a steam driven pump, kind of like the steam driven generators, to flow water to the boilers?  Like I said I may be missing some huge point, kind of like a blind man in a zoo first feeling an elephants trunk and wondering what it is.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 10:48 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Lee

I cannot claim much knowledge on the subject, just the basics and a few details.  Injectors came in three basic types: the familiar lifting injector placed high on the boiler, and less known non-lifting injector placed under the cab, which can powered by either full boiler pressure steam or exhaust steam. 

Lifting injectors lift water from the tender or tanks by generating a partial vacuum using a steam jet.  If the water or the injector is too hot, the water will boil and the injector cannot lift it.  Internally the injector is a precise arrangement of concentric converging and diverging cones: A steam jet and venturi for drawing in water and accelerating it, a mixing cone where the steam is condensed, and a pressure cone where the jet's impact builds the pressure needed to force the water into the boiler.  Don't ask me how or why it works - I'm just reporting on what I find in drawings.  But if the feed water contains any suspended grit, or is unusually hard, abrasion or deposition that reshapes the cones will degrade the injector's performance, to possible failure.

With non-lifting injectors, the feed problem is the possibility of drowning the injector with too much water.  They are also subject to the same degradation of the cones.  The exhaust steam version required auxiliary steam from the boiler when the engine was not working, and perhaps on starting, making their construction and operation more complicated than full pressure injectors. These were a fairly late development, say late 1920s, and the only North American narrow gauge use that I am aware of was on the Uintah and NdeM Mallets, and the White Pass 70 & 71.

Probably the most common source of injector failure was operator error, due largely to the multiplicity of designs, each with their unique details and often idiosyncratic operating quirks.

John Stutz
On October 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 



On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 

 


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

John Stutz
 

Lee

I cannot claim much knowledge on the subject, just the basics and a few details.  Injectors came in three basic types: the familiar lifting injector placed high on the boiler, and less known non-lifting injector placed under the cab, which can powered by either full boiler pressure steam or exhaust steam. 

Lifting injectors lift water from the tender or tanks by generating a partial vacuum using a steam jet.  If the water or the injector is too hot, the water will boil and the injector cannot lift it.  Internally the injector is a precise arrangement of concentric converging and diverging cones: A steam jet and venturi for drawing in water and accelerating it, a mixing cone where the steam is condensed, and a pressure cone where the jet's impact builds the pressure needed to force the water into the boiler.  Don't ask me how or why it works - I'm just reporting on what I find in drawings.  But if the feed water contains any suspended grit, or is unusually hard, abrasion or deposition that reshapes the cones will degrade the injector's performance, to possible failure.

With non-lifting injectors, the feed problem is the possibility of drowning the injector with too much water.  They are also subject to the same degradation of the cones.  The exhaust steam version required auxiliary steam from the boiler when the engine was not working, and perhaps on starting, making their construction and operation more complicated than full pressure injectors. These were a fairly late development, say late 1920s, and the only North American narrow gauge use that I am aware of was on the Uintah and NdeM Mallets, and the White Pass 70 & 71.

Probably the most common source of injector failure was operator error, due largely to the multiplicity of designs, each with their unique details and often idiosyncratic operating quirks.

John Stutz

On October 11, 2020 at 12:46 PM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 



On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 

 


Instructions needed for re-introduction of kit. Banta Ridgway Box car storage shed. Original Resin Kit version.

Keith Wiseman
 

Hello All. 
 
I have the molds and patterns from the old Ridgway box car storage that I acquired from Bill Banta.  Unfortunately all the old resin kit version instructions are lost to old computers.  If anyone has a copy of the instructions in HO, S or O it would be greatly appreciated if I could get a copy. The instructions are the same for all 3 versions. 
 
Hope someone can help
 
Keith


Re: Prototype?

Dale Buxton
 

These are from a 5 car D&RGW set PFM imported in the 1960’s. What you have are the Combine and Parlor cars. The set also came with a Baggage, Coach and Sleeper. These complete sets are quite rare. You got a very good deal here. I have recently seen the complete mint condition set with an asking price of $1500.00.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 15:39 Russ Norris <rbnorrisjr@...> wrote:
You got a GREAT deal, Bruce!  A couple of years ago, at a train show,I picked up a couple of brass coaches for $50 each.  There were three available from an estate sale.  For some dumb reason I didn't buy all three -- I guess I was worried how to explain $150 price for three cars to my wife.  The upside is that they were painted and lettered for the EBT.  They even came with seats and passengers!  The coaches were numbered for EBT #5 and #6.  When I got them home I looked those numbers up in R&K.  Turns out that both those numbers were on the 1916 roster.  Number 5 was 36-8 and seated 43.  It was reclassified as a miner's coach and sold in 1953 to the Shenandoah Central, which sold it to the Tweetsie.  When the book was published it was still in use.  Number 6 is listed as 35 feet long seating 35.  It was retired in 1934.  My reaction to all that is "close enough!"  The cars were probably D&RGW prototypes, but they look pretty good trailing #14 with combine #14 on the rear!  And they actually run very well.  I should have bought the third one.

Russ

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 4:26 PM Bruce Bowie <buybruce@...> wrote:
Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Prototype?

Russ Norris
 

You got a GREAT deal, Bruce!  A couple of years ago, at a train show,I picked up a couple of brass coaches for $50 each.  There were three available from an estate sale.  For some dumb reason I didn't buy all three -- I guess I was worried how to explain $150 price for three cars to my wife.  The upside is that they were painted and lettered for the EBT.  They even came with seats and passengers!  The coaches were numbered for EBT #5 and #6.  When I got them home I looked those numbers up in R&K.  Turns out that both those numbers were on the 1916 roster.  Number 5 was 36-8 and seated 43.  It was reclassified as a miner's coach and sold in 1953 to the Shenandoah Central, which sold it to the Tweetsie.  When the book was published it was still in use.  Number 6 is listed as 35 feet long seating 35.  It was retired in 1934.  My reaction to all that is "close enough!"  The cars were probably D&RGW prototypes, but they look pretty good trailing #14 with combine #14 on the rear!  And they actually run very well.  I should have bought the third one.

Russ


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 4:26 PM Bruce Bowie <buybruce@...> wrote:
Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Russ Norris
 

Oh that was soooooo bad.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 4:23 PM <Climax@...> wrote:
not enough viagra

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 3:46 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 


On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:


Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Prototype?

Bruce Bowie
 

Thank you to all responders.  My summation is for $40 I got a decent pair of cars I can use on my EBT until I can get more appropriate cars.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020, 2:24 PM Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Climax@...
 

not enough viagra

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: Oct 11, 2020 3:46 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 


On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:


Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

Lee Gustafson
 

John,

Thank you for the injector information. A better question is what causes injectors to fail?

Lee Gustafson 


On Oct 11, 2020, at 1:40 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:


Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz
On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 


Re: We be injections (was AIR BRAKES 101.... was Re: RGS #20. Was: [HOn3] Division Point K-27 question)

John Stutz
 

Lee

It is not clear what you are asking.  There are a number of reasons why an injector can fail to inject water into the boiler, most of which I have forgotten.  But I cannot recall any that I would describe as "stuck". 

None have anything to do with air brakes.

If an injector fails, you can hope to finish your run on the other one.  If both fail, you can try to make it into a siding with the water already in the boiler, but you had damm well better drop the fire before the crownsheet is uncovered.

John Stutz

On October 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM "Lee Gustafson via groups.io" <bagustaf@...> wrote:

What happens when an injector is sticking? What do you do?

Lee Gustafson 





On Oct 10, 2020, at 12:41 PM, Mike Conder <vulturenest1@...> wrote:

Sort of, I think.  The injector uses internal venturis powered by steam.  The venturis create a high velocity and low pressure (via conservation of energy) and then the mix is going fast enough and is now dense enough to get into the boiler.  Seems like magic, but it's just brilliant mechanical engineering! (and the triple valve is ALSO brilliant mechanical engineering!)

Mike Conder, mechanical engineer

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:54 AM Nolan Hinshaw via groups.io <cearnog= yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
On Oct 10, 2020, at 09:41, johnny graybeal < johnnyg@...> wrote:

> Reading the old books on this can be very confusing, but less so than talking about how a check valve lets water of less pressure go into a boiler of higher pressure. That still gives me headaches.

What forces water from an injector through a check valve is impulse, not pressure, It's the energy water (density higher than steam's) gets passing through an injector and gaining velocity (momentum is mass times the square of velocity, wherefrom impulse, which depends on compressing that momentum into very small intervals of time,...). Simple Newtonian mechanics at work - nothing to see here - move along...

From a pump, there's the force multiplier between the steam cylinder(s) and the water cylinder(s) that produces a positive pressure differential at the check.





 


Re: Prototype?

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

The first car is a parlor or chair car from the 5 car set issued by PFM way back when.  The second car is the combine from that set.  I spent a lot of time not long ago trying to find out what the prototype of the parlor car was.  You'll note the distinctive window patterns and the presence of platforms on both ends.  I checked out the two most recent books on DRGW passenger cars and came to the conclusion that this car represents a combination of features from several cars and not a specific prototype car.  The only disclaimer I can put on that conclusion is that not all Chair cars from the early years were adequately photographed.  The combine represents a car from the 202 to 210 group.  It lacks several features specific to the long combine used on the Pagosa branch.  These cars were produced somewhere in the late 60's - early 70's, and are good examples of how limited prototype research was back then. PFM allowed their first K-27 to come out with features taken from at least 3 different  locos, so this coach set fits right into the thinking of brass importers and builders back then.  Never the less, they are well built and certainly convey the feel of narrow gauge passenger equiipment. 

-----Original Message---
From: Bruce <in2trains@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sun, Oct 11, 2020 10:18 am
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Re: Prototype?

Earl Knoob
 

The bottom car appears to be combine 215, later car 212.

The upper car is indeed a parlor car, but an earlier version (pre 1937) before vestibules were added.  It matches the side profile of the parlor-buffet car "Chama", but is one window short, and the Chama did not have a fancy platform railing.


From: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io> on behalf of Bruce <in2trains@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 8:18 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Subject: [HOn3] Prototype?
 
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?


Re: Prototype?

Wayne
 

Here is the full 5 car set:  PFM United 5 Car Set


Re: Prototype?

Lee Gustafson
 

I don’t know what the long first numbers are but I think what look like the last are 2 of 5 and 5 of 5 which would indicate they were part of a 5 car PFM set.

Lee Gustafson 


On Oct 11, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Wayne <waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:


That's part of the 5 car set:  2 of 5 and 5 of 5.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 11:15 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.
<20201011_113906~2.jpg>



--
Wayne Taylor


Re: Prototype?

Wayne
 

That's part of the 5 car set:  2 of 5 and 5 of 5.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 11:15 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.



--
Wayne Taylor


Re: Prototype?

Bruce
 

They did each have a sticker with some numbers handwritten.  Not sure that means anything.


Re: Prototype?

tonyk537
 

The top one looks like the Parlor car from their 5 car set.


Re: Prototype?

John
 

Looks like the DRG W 2 car set PFM United did
John Peckham


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 7:25 AM, Wayne
<waynewtaylorii@...> wrote:
The trucks have the body bolsters typical of the D&RGW so I would go with that.

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?



--
Wayne Taylor


Re: Prototype?

Wayne
 

The trucks have the body bolsters typical of the D&RGW so I would go with that.


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:18 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?



--
Wayne Taylor


Prototype?

Bruce
 

Guys,

I recently purchased at an estate sale two brass HOn3 passenger cars (only $20 each).  I figured it was a quick way to get some rolling stock on my under construction East Broad Top.

There were no boxes. The only identification was a UNITED sticker on the bottom of each.

Anyone know the prototypes they are based on?

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