Date   

Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

duncan
 

John, Rob and Dale,

    Yes, the LaBelle F&CC kits were produced somewhere in the 60's, I believe.  They were a limited run kit.  As I understand it there were only about 250 of each kit (the combine and the coach) manufactured.  I don't know why they were limited run.  Maybe because there weren't that many F&CC modelers out there.

    The model Rob showed is a coach and the combine kit did have two windows in the side, in the baggage area.  Many early roads had windows in the baggage section, I guess before they figured out that wasn't a good idea.

    The boxes for the kits had green labels.  I don't believe any other LaBelle kit had that kind of label.

    If you look at the picture of Rob's car you can easily see how much bigger the windows are.    And the cars were longer.  As you compare lengths of cars, even on the same road, you will find differences in the lengths.  Usually due to the cars being made by different manufacturers.  But, sometimes even the same manufacturer will make different length  cars of the same type in different years.  On the DSP&P/C&S (the roads I model the most) there are maybe something like five, or six, different lengths of coach cars.

    As for the 12/13 windows per side issue, all three coach kits (D&RGW, F&CC and D&FtW)  are prototypically correct. Manufacturers of prototype cars varied the window size, shape and numbers on their cars.  I believe the D&RGW Jackson and Sharp coaches were originally 13 windows per side.  During a rebuild it was decided to sheath over the window by the stove.  If you look you will almost invariably see a stack, on the roof, over the space of that blanked out window.

    Hope this is of some help!

Duncan Harvey


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

Climax@...
 

That would put it back in the original factory, inside an old freight depot on the south side of the parallel tracks between Madison and Milwaukee on the west side of Oconomowoc Wisconsin!. I remember going there and buying one of the first 15th anniversary kits they put out in 1965, still got the built cars.
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: John Stutz
Sent: Sep 2, 2020 12:12 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io, claneon30
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LaBelle F&CC kits

Chris

We could of course, but speculation is so much fun.

And my current estimate is that these odd prototype HOn3 kits date from 40-50 years ago, which puts them a bit before Rick's involvement with LaBelle.

John Stutz

On September 1, 2020 at 7:46 PM claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:

You can also just call Rick Steele, current owner of LaBelle and he can answer all your questions.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Sep 1, 2020, at 8:29 PM, John Stutz < john.stutz@...> wrote:

Cliff & Duncan

Thanks for your replies. 

I had previously found that the LaBelle D&FtW coach was identical to the D&RGW coach, and suspected this was also true of the F&CC coach.  You both confirm that the F&CC kit definitely differed.  Since I have never seen one, I am wondering when it was offered and why it was dropped?  Bit of mystery here.

Cliff - If you have an original box and instructions, could you provide the kit code, and the address that LaBelle was then using?   The D&FtW kit is HOn3-20, with the original (?)  PO box 22, Oconomowoc, WI 53066 address, and priced at $12.75.  Which price was up at least two steps from the $5.95 on my oldest HOn3-2x kit box.

On reexamining the D&FtW coach I find that there is one difference from the D&RG version: In the D&FtW kit both sides have 13 windows, against 12 & 13 for the D&RG.  Given what I infer regarding LaBelle's woodworking technology, this is a trivial difference, perhaps simply due to over production of the 13 window side.   The two kits have the same window sizes and spacing, and overall side length.  

How do the F&CC kit's window's size and spacing and the overall side length compare to the D&RG version?

John



 

 


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

Dale Buxton
 

It has been A long time since I've seen a LaBelle F&CC combine, so correct me if i'm wrong. But didn't they have side windows in the baggage section? I know I saw that on some Combine somewhere along the line that had this feature. From a security standpoint, I always thought that was an odd thing to do.

Dale Buxton

On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 2:37 AM Robert Bell via groups.io <ionhoss=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
John,
I suspect closer to 60 years ago as I am 55 and the kit was most likely purchased in the mid-1950's to early 1960's by my dad.  I have the instructions somewhere, but I do not believe the kit was in the original box.  I partially built it in the 1980's (?).  Attached are a couple of picts of it on my Skagway warf with a BS coach and an OR&W car.  Please forgive the color green I used, back then I didn't have any Pullman Green so I used what I had.

Rob Bell










Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

Robert Bell
 

John,
I suspect closer to 60 years ago as I am 55 and the kit was most likely purchased in the mid-1950's to early 1960's by my dad.  I have the instructions somewhere, but I do not believe the kit was in the original box.  I partially built it in the 1980's (?).  Attached are a couple of picts of it on my Skagway warf with a BS coach and an OR&W car.  Please forgive the color green I used, back then I didn't have any Pullman Green so I used what I had.

Rob Bell










Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

John Stutz
 

Chris

We could of course, but speculation is so much fun.

And my current estimate is that these odd prototype HOn3 kits date from 40-50 years ago, which puts them a bit before Rick's involvement with LaBelle.

John Stutz

On September 1, 2020 at 7:46 PM claneon30 <chrislaneon30@...> wrote:

You can also just call Rick Steele, current owner of LaBelle and he can answer all your questions.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Sep 1, 2020, at 8:29 PM, John Stutz < john.stutz@...> wrote:

Cliff & Duncan

Thanks for your replies. 

I had previously found that the LaBelle D&FtW coach was identical to the D&RGW coach, and suspected this was also true of the F&CC coach.  You both confirm that the F&CC kit definitely differed.  Since I have never seen one, I am wondering when it was offered and why it was dropped?  Bit of mystery here.

Cliff - If you have an original box and instructions, could you provide the kit code, and the address that LaBelle was then using?   The D&FtW kit is HOn3-20, with the original (?)  PO box 22, Oconomowoc, WI 53066 address, and priced at $12.75.  Which price was up at least two steps from the $5.95 on my oldest HOn3-2x kit box.

On reexamining the D&FtW coach I find that there is one difference from the D&RG version: In the D&FtW kit both sides have 13 windows, against 12 & 13 for the D&RG.  Given what I infer regarding LaBelle's woodworking technology, this is a trivial difference, perhaps simply due to over production of the 13 window side.   The two kits have the same window sizes and spacing, and overall side length.  

How do the F&CC kit's window's size and spacing and the overall side length compare to the D&RG version?

John



 

 


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

claneon30
 

You can also just call Rick Steele, current owner of LaBelle and he can answer all your questions.

Chris Lane - Editor HOn3 Annual



On Sep 1, 2020, at 8:29 PM, John Stutz <john.stutz@...> wrote:

Cliff & Duncan

Thanks for your replies. 

I had previously found that the LaBelle D&FtW coach was identical to the D&RGW coach, and suspected this was also true of the F&CC coach.  You both confirm that the F&CC kit definitely differed.  Since I have never seen one, I am wondering when it was offered and why it was dropped?  Bit of mystery here.

Cliff - If you have an original box and instructions, could you provide the kit code, and the address that LaBelle was then using?   The D&FtW kit is HOn3-20, with the original (?)  PO box 22, Oconomowoc, WI 53066 address, and priced at $12.75.  Which price was up at least two steps from the $5.95 on my oldest HOn3-2x kit box.

On reexamining the D&FtW coach I find that there is one difference from the D&RG version: In the D&FtW kit both sides have 13 windows, against 12 & 13 for the D&RG.  Given what I infer regarding LaBelle's woodworking technology, this is a trivial difference, perhaps simply due to over production of the 13 window side.   The two kits have the same window sizes and spacing, and overall side length.  

How do the F&CC kit's window's size and spacing and the overall side length compare to the D&RG version?

John



Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

John Stutz
 

Cliff & Duncan

Thanks for your replies. 

I had previously found that the LaBelle D&FtW coach was identical to the D&RGW coach, and suspected this was also true of the F&CC coach.  You both confirm that the F&CC kit definitely differed.  Since I have never seen one, I am wondering when it was offered and why it was dropped?  Bit of mystery here.

Cliff - If you have an original box and instructions, could you provide the kit code, and the address that LaBelle was then using?   The D&FtW kit is HOn3-20, with the original (?)  PO box 22, Oconomowoc, WI 53066 address, and priced at $12.75.  Which price was up at least two steps from the $5.95 on my oldest HOn3-2x kit box.

On reexamining the D&FtW coach I find that there is one difference from the D&RG version: In the D&FtW kit both sides have 13 windows, against 12 & 13 for the D&RG.  Given what I infer regarding LaBelle's woodworking technology, this is a trivial difference, perhaps simply due to over production of the 13 window side.   The two kits have the same window sizes and spacing, and overall side length.  

How do the F&CC kit's window's size and spacing and the overall side length compare to the D&RG version?

John


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

John Stutz
 

Rob

I am not surprised that a LaBelle D&RGW coach differs from a Blackstone one. There is about 50 year's difference in their initial production dates. They were designed to accommodate different customer expectations for prototype fidelity. And they represent an extreme difference in manufacturing technique.

What I was referring to is the differences between two LaBelle kits, labeled as being D&RGW and D&FW prototypes, but both coded HOn3-20. And I did not find any difference when I paired the sides together. So far as I can tell, they are exactly the same kit, just with different names on the box.

I suspect that one of the previous owners of LaBelle started down the same road that MicroTrains attempted a few years ago: attempting to amortize production costs by labeling a single product for several railroads. And while that can work for prototypes like a Pullman PS-1 box car, its a dead end for sales to knowledgeable modelers of an era where railroads demanded and got customized products. Fortunately for us, LaBelle has survived, and is still available, despite the number of unbuilt kits on our shelves.

I say fortunately, because it is much easier, and less financially painful, to bash a LaBelle passenger kit into something other than a D&RG prototype. The D&RGW's passenger stock either dated from the early 1880s, or was modeled on stock that did date from that era. Hence their remarkable uniformity. Later passenger cars built for other roads differed significantly, generally longer with narrower window pillars, My focus is the White Pass & Yukon, and prior to 1969, when they started buying steel passenger cars in quantity, they were running wooden cars dating from 1876 to 1918. Of a passenger stock of 40 plus cars, I don't think they had more than four that were initially identical. And those were the ex. Stony Clove and Catskill Mountain RR parlor cars, #218-224(even), with three sizes of side windows and an offset door and picture window in the observation end. Which on the White Pass, ran with three styles of sheathing (paneled, matchboard, & faux heavyweight steel) and now have double width windows. So I appreciate having the LaBelle kits available.

John Stutz

On September 1, 2020 at 1:29 AM "Robert Bell via groups.io" <ionhoss@...> wrote:

John,
I think they aretwere different.  I have one of the F&CC coaches that I started building when I was in high school and have not finished yet.  It is longer than my Blackstone coaches, and looks different.  If I get a chance later, I'll take a photo and post it.

Rob Bell


 


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

duncan
 

John and Robert.

    The LaBelle F&CC coach is a very different animal from the D&RGW coach.

    Yes, it is longer.  The D&RGW coaches were mostly Jackson and Sharp, though they did have others as well.  Those coaches are what the LaBelle kit is based on.  Basically the same model as the Blackstone cars.  The F&CC coaches were built by Billmeyer (sp?) and Small.

    The F&CC coaches also have larger windows - part of the reason for the longer length.  There may be some other differences as well, but those are the main ones I can recall.

    BTW, those F&CC coaches are virtually identical to coaches the C&S had, so can be used for that road as well. The C&S had no Jackson and Sharp cars.

                                    Duncan Harvey


Re: Screw Size

Bruce Bowie
 

That's exactly what I was looking for!  Thanks so much.


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 8:31 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Here  you go Bruce. The last photo is of a Westside C-16 tender with the modified post.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:14 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Dale,

How about sharing a photo or two of your modified post.  Sounds like something I might want to do.

And again, thanks for sharing.

With cinders in your eyes,
Bruce Bowie
419-602-3584
in2trains@...

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 11:20 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Bruce, Disregard my first post. It's a 2mm thread. Sorry about that. I went looking to see if I had any that might work for you and I discovered my mistake. I have a bunch of Wastside C-16 drawbar posts but, those are too short for your needs. I have been replacing my drawbar posts with home made shouldered screws for some years now so that I don't have to frustratingly fiddle with the drawbar coming undone when a tender goes off the rails.

I would check with NWSL as well as Greenway for these.

Dale Buxton

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM Dale Buxton via groups.io <dbtuathaddana=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Bruce, the draw bar post on these is 1.7mm thread. This thread size was pretty standard on Japanese made brass. Only the post length varied. Korea followed this same practice. Greenway Products probably has something you can use that will work.


Dale Buxton 

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
I just purchased a HON3 BRASS WMC WESTSIDE D&RGW 2-8-2 K-27 - SLIDE VALVE at an estate sale.  Looks to be in very good condition.  However, it is missing the drawbar post that screws into the bottom front of the tender.
I assume it uses a metric thread.  Does anyone know the screw thread used for this post?  Or have one I could buy?


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

Robert Bell
 

John,
I think they aretwere different.  I have one of the F&CC coaches that I started building when I was in high school and have not finished yet.  It is longer than my Blackstone coaches, and looks different.  If I get a chance later, I'll take a photo and post it.

Rob Bell


Re: LaBelle F&CC kits

John Stutz
 

Cliff

Did the LaBelle Florence and Cripple Creek coach kits differ in any way, other than the label on the box, from their D&RGW open platform coach kits? I have LaBelle HOn3-20 coach kits labeled for both the D&RGW and the Denver and Fort Worth, and have not found any other differences.

John Stutz

On August 31, 2020 at 4:59 PM "Clifford Mestel via groups.io" <troutckeng@...> wrote:

Does anyone have one or two LaBelle Florence and Cripple Creek coaches for sale or for trade for F&CC combines?

Cliff Mestel
 

 


Re: Screw Size

Dale Buxton
 

Here  you go Bruce. The last photo is of a Westside C-16 tender with the modified post.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:14 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Dale,

How about sharing a photo or two of your modified post.  Sounds like something I might want to do.

And again, thanks for sharing.

With cinders in your eyes,
Bruce Bowie
419-602-3584
in2trains@...

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 11:20 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Bruce, Disregard my first post. It's a 2mm thread. Sorry about that. I went looking to see if I had any that might work for you and I discovered my mistake. I have a bunch of Wastside C-16 drawbar posts but, those are too short for your needs. I have been replacing my drawbar posts with home made shouldered screws for some years now so that I don't have to frustratingly fiddle with the drawbar coming undone when a tender goes off the rails.

I would check with NWSL as well as Greenway for these.

Dale Buxton

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM Dale Buxton via groups.io <dbtuathaddana=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Bruce, the draw bar post on these is 1.7mm thread. This thread size was pretty standard on Japanese made brass. Only the post length varied. Korea followed this same practice. Greenway Products probably has something you can use that will work.


Dale Buxton 

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
I just purchased a HON3 BRASS WMC WESTSIDE D&RGW 2-8-2 K-27 - SLIDE VALVE at an estate sale.  Looks to be in very good condition.  However, it is missing the drawbar post that screws into the bottom front of the tender.
I assume it uses a metric thread.  Does anyone know the screw thread used for this post?  Or have one I could buy?


LaBelle F&CC kits

Clifford Mestel
 

Does anyone have one or two LaBelle Florence and Cripple Creek coaches for sale or for trade for F&CC combines?

Cliff Mestel
 


Re: Grandt C & S Bettendorf vs Micro Trains

John Stutz
 

Dusty

I would take the difference off of the car bolster. That slight ring on the truck bolster helps the car track over any variation in track levels, and you can always add a .020" washer if converting back to Grandt.

If car body wobble is a problem, Kadee makes a wide variety of coil compression springs for their various scale couplers. Find one that fits over your truck screws, cut a short length, just a few turns, and place it under the screw head of one truck, leaving the other slightly loose. If that does not suffice, add body bolster side bearings, with just a hair's clearance, for the sprung down truck.

John Stutz

On August 30, 2020 at 3:31 PM Dusty <Dustburm@q.com> wrote:

It appears the Micro Trains bettendorf truck bolsters sit about .020 higher than the Grandt trucks. Any opinion on removing material from the MT bolster or the car bolster or something else entirely.

Any experience?

Dusty Burman
623 261-8707

 


Re: Screw Size

Bruce Bowie
 

Good ideas all around.  Thanks.


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 10:54 AM Mark Kasprowicz <mark@...> wrote:
If you solder on a thin nut, with a smaller ID and drilled out to take the end of the post vinstead of a washer, you can undo it with a spinner without having to unsolder it.

Mark K
Oxon England


Re: Screw Size

Mark Kasprowicz
 

If you solder on a thin nut, with a smaller ID and drilled out to take the end of the post vinstead of a washer, you can undo it with a spinner without having to unsolder it.

Mark K
Oxon England


Re: Screw Size

LARRY KLOSE
 

Along with many others, I use a short piece of shrink wrap or vinyl tubing on the end of the pin to keep the drawbar on. It allows separation when necessary but avoids undesired splits. Why make it permanent if there’s components that need servicing in the tender?

Larry

Larry Klose


Re: Screw Size

Russ Norris
 

I've been soldering a washer to the end of the tender post for years.  Just takes a few seconds and about the same if you need to separate locomotive and tender. 

Russ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 7:32 AM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Sure Bruce, I''l do that tomorrow. This can be as simple or as complicated as you want. On the simple end, I just ream out a # 1 or # 2 machined brass washer until it slips over the end of the drawbar post and then I solder it in place. 

  Then, sometimes I opt to lathe up a new post out of brass rod and thread it to 2mm and the other end has simply got a head like a flathead screw, I slot the head with a jewelers saw.   

You can get the washers from Micro Mark of course in a package of 25 or you can go to J. I. Morris and get them in packages in multiples of 10s. I have found in the long run that it is far more economical to buy these from Morris. It seems like I always need more than 25. Either way you're still getting the Morris product. 

I'll get on that photo tomorrow.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:14 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Dale,

How about sharing a photo or two of your modified post.  Sounds like something I might want to do.

And again, thanks for sharing.

With cinders in your eyes,
Bruce Bowie
419-602-3584
in2trains@...

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 11:20 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Bruce, Disregard my first post. It's a 2mm thread. Sorry about that. I went looking to see if I had any that might work for you and I discovered my mistake. I have a bunch of Wastside C-16 drawbar posts but, those are too short for your needs. I have been replacing my drawbar posts with home made shouldered screws for some years now so that I don't have to frustratingly fiddle with the drawbar coming undone when a tender goes off the rails.

I would check with NWSL as well as Greenway for these.

Dale Buxton

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM Dale Buxton via groups.io <dbtuathaddana=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Bruce, the draw bar post on these is 1.7mm thread. This thread size was pretty standard on Japanese made brass. Only the post length varied. Korea followed this same practice. Greenway Products probably has something you can use that will work.


Dale Buxton 

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
I just purchased a HON3 BRASS WMC WESTSIDE D&RGW 2-8-2 K-27 - SLIDE VALVE at an estate sale.  Looks to be in very good condition.  However, it is missing the drawbar post that screws into the bottom front of the tender.
I assume it uses a metric thread.  Does anyone know the screw thread used for this post?  Or have one I could buy?


--
Russ Norris, MMR
Cape Cod, Massachusetts
http://blacklogvalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/


Re: Screw Size

Dale Buxton
 

Sure Bruce, I''l do that tomorrow. This can be as simple or as complicated as you want. On the simple end, I just ream out a # 1 or # 2 machined brass washer until it slips over the end of the drawbar post and then I solder it in place. 

  Then, sometimes I opt to lathe up a new post out of brass rod and thread it to 2mm and the other end has simply got a head like a flathead screw, I slot the head with a jewelers saw.   

You can get the washers from Micro Mark of course in a package of 25 or you can go to J. I. Morris and get them in packages in multiples of 10s. I have found in the long run that it is far more economical to buy these from Morris. It seems like I always need more than 25. Either way you're still getting the Morris product. 

I'll get on that photo tomorrow.

Dale Buxton

On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 6:14 AM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
Dale,

How about sharing a photo or two of your modified post.  Sounds like something I might want to do.

And again, thanks for sharing.

With cinders in your eyes,
Bruce Bowie
419-602-3584
in2trains@...

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 11:20 PM Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:
Bruce, Disregard my first post. It's a 2mm thread. Sorry about that. I went looking to see if I had any that might work for you and I discovered my mistake. I have a bunch of Wastside C-16 drawbar posts but, those are too short for your needs. I have been replacing my drawbar posts with home made shouldered screws for some years now so that I don't have to frustratingly fiddle with the drawbar coming undone when a tender goes off the rails.

I would check with NWSL as well as Greenway for these.

Dale Buxton

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 9:00 PM Dale Buxton via groups.io <dbtuathaddana=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Bruce, the draw bar post on these is 1.7mm thread. This thread size was pretty standard on Japanese made brass. Only the post length varied. Korea followed this same practice. Greenway Products probably has something you can use that will work.


Dale Buxton 

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 2:37 PM Bruce <in2trains@...> wrote:
I just purchased a HON3 BRASS WMC WESTSIDE D&RGW 2-8-2 K-27 - SLIDE VALVE at an estate sale.  Looks to be in very good condition.  However, it is missing the drawbar post that screws into the bottom front of the tender.
I assume it uses a metric thread.  Does anyone know the screw thread used for this post?  Or have one I could buy?

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