Date   

More progress

Steve Hatch
 


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

burrst54
 

Thanks - I hadn't heard of this and it looks great!
Burr Stewart
Seattle, WA


Re: coreless motors again

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

I thought about your concern about weakening the current path, and knowing that epoxy can serve to insulate, I proceeded cautiously.  I also began to analyze the various current paths available in brass  steamers and came to the conclusion that loss of the pathway through the springs might be well tolerated because there many ways for current to by pass the spring- frame interface.  Fortunately, it works very well..  I have since used this technique when ever I run into a spring that had it in for me.  I have had spring problems on a C-18 before, so I commend your dexterity and eyesight.  Mine happened when I accidentally (and stupidly I might add), loosened the wrong screw on the bottom plate and wound up with a handful of disassembled mechanism when I turned the thing over to check something.. Since this locomotive already had a good paint job that I didn't want to damage, the reassembly process, with those little springs ready to depart in all directions for parts unknown, was ample punishment for my lack of care.  Also, with HOn3 mechanisms I have learned to only disassemble them down to removal of the main rods at most. I carefully mask the wheel treads and any wiring or contact points that need to be paint free.  That's it.  I spray Scalecoat at 20 psi with a Badger 200 medium tip.  I spray the whole frame, wheels and all, but with sensible care given to avoiding soaking vulnerable spots like journal edges and other spots where build ups need to be avoided.  I also rotate the drivers to get good coverage on their surfaces and enough coverage on the frame behind to insure that no brass remains visible.  I've found that paint applied in this manner does not get into axle holes or freeze journals like one might think it would.  The wheel tread masking really reduces clean up time tremendously.   I also bake at 175 degrees for 45 to 60 minutes and have discovered no heat damage anywhere.  Reassembly afterwards is no longer a challenge to my sanity, that the number of electric contact issues is decreased sometimes to none at all, and that once the rods are attached, the drive elements are easily freed from any paint sticking by pushing the partially assembled mechanism down the tracks back and forth by hand until friction returns to the same level that was present before the painting began.   Add motor, gears, lube and you are done.  My last 10 locos were done this way and most were small Rio Grande and C&S engines.  At my age, I've found it necessary to test the validity of many common beliefs about how things should be done.  There seems to be a lot of room for successful experimentation in this hobby and I'm grateful that I can still remain active in it by finding simpler and less stressful ways of delivering the goods.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Moignard <mick@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 13, 2020 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Never seen an issue with Key spring C-18s and the springs, and I’ve done a few of these, and own two.  I would not hold the springs with any sort of glue, as that risks insulating it from the frame, and weakening the current path from right wheels to frame of which the springs are part.  Tamika contact grease is what I use to hold in place while assembling.  As to gluing the axleboxes to the frame, I’m amazed you have anything that runs even half decently afterwards.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.


Re: coreless motors again

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

Hi Mark.  I think there's a world of difference between the two C-18 runs in terms of overall quality.  The first run came about during Key's initial attempt to make a presence for itself among HOn3 modelers.  Like the C-17 before it, the basic ideas were good, but the execution by the builder, Samsamoga (sp), was really not too impressive.  Bill Peter over in Sn3 was also getting involved with the Sammy's at the time and made several critical comments about their performance on his Sn3 items. As we all know, Sammy embarked on a very serious period of course correction, and eventually became one of the premier builders.  This was a very good thing for us and the second run C-18 locomotives reflect this evolution.  Given the variability of handmade brass, even fabulous runs  have some individual members that should have not gotten past quality control, but did.  Comparing engine runs widely separated in time for various features requires  a very large sample size to support any conclusions about which is superior from an engineering or QC point of view.  Electric pick up may be a good point of comparison or not, depending on the number of other variables that influence pick up.  Over the years I've really been amazed by the number of hidden gremlins that have to be checked out.  The same thing applies today whether you are looking at recent Blackstone or the last few runs of PSC locos.  I've got several examples of Blackstone C-19's and I can see variability in performance in spite of all the electronic devices now used to hone performance.  Jim Vail's reviews of the various PSC runs revealed problems I've never seen and I've dealt with glitches he never mentioned.  With steam locomotives I think we are looking at a piece of machinery that really can drive us nuts.  The comment about physics I offered goes way back to the 1980's.  The author of that piece was commenting on the premise that sprung drivers should improve tracking due to equalizing the loco's weight on rough track and allowing all drivers to maintain contact with the railhead. He pointed out why this works on a 25 ton locomotive but not so good on one that weighs in at less than a pound.  I have never seen any visual evidence of equalized driver motion on any quality track from any locomotive with sprung drivers I have ever watched go by, and I have (or more accurately did have) a pretty good eye.  It seems that if the springs are strong enough to support the loco in an upright level position, they are too strong for the light weight of the loco to allow the drivers to match the track contours.  On the other extreme, if weak springs are substituted, the loco can't maintain an even keel as it's weight distribution changes. top heaviness comes into play and other disruptions in pulling power begin to appear.  It's really a can of worms.  As far as good results after doing modifications goes, you need to be careful in drawing conclusions because the simple act of loosening and removing the coverplate can provoke beneficial or detrimental changes in the relationships of parts that make up a rod driven drive train.  Small changes in the torque used to retighten screws can influence how a driver interacts with its bearings and rods, leading to alterations in how the driver responds to minor differences in quartering or concentricity.  Weak frames can be accidentally bent during handling. Years ago I was taught that a lot of scientific investigations are later found to be flawed simply because the design of the experiment didn't completely isolate the tested element's variables.  Trying to isolate the performance of steam loco components is really a very difficult thing to do. Substition of stock springs with whimpy's can give smoother running, but it's hard to rule out other changes that can occur as the result of opening up a mechanism to work on it.     Tuning brass is a very empirical activity and it helps to have a secret chant and a bonafied rabbit's foot on hand too.  The fact that one loco has a sprung suspension and the other, poorer performing one doesn't could turn out to be a red herring.  Good running to you.




---Original Message-----
From: Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 13, 2020 10:36 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that springs do not make a difference in model locomotives because they lack the mass to make them effective. I have a number of these C-18's (those who know me will know why!) including the sprung version of the 318 as well as the unsprung one with the wrong tender. The difference in running between them is quite noticeable which I put down to better electrical pickup up. Many sprung locos have had the originals replaced with NWSL 'Wimpy' springs and I believe that makes for a smoother running model as well.

As for holding spring in place, I use a tiny amount of grease though I ws recently put onto Conductive grease which contains copper.

Mark K
UK


Re: coreless motors again

Mark Kasprowicz
 

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that springs do not make a difference in model locomotives because they lack the mass to make them effective. I have a number of these C-18's (those who know me will know why!) including the sprung version of the 318 as well as the unsprung one with the wrong tender. The difference in running between them is quite noticeable which I put down to better electrical pickup up. Many sprung locos have had the originals replaced with NWSL 'Wimpy' springs and I believe that makes for a smoother running model as well.

As for holding spring in place, I use a tiny amount of grease though I ws recently put onto Conductive grease which contains copper.

Mark K
UK


Re: coreless motors again

Mark Kasprowicz
 

John,
Also try Tramfabriek (www.tramfabriek.nl) for small coreless motors. The site is in Durth and English but in fact the owner, Axel, lives here in the UK. He specialises in remotoring n gauge but mainly steam trams! 

Mark K
UK


Re: coreless motors again

Mick Moignard
 

Never seen an issue with Key spring C-18s and the springs, and I’ve done a few of these, and own two.  I would not hold the springs with any sort of glue, as that risks insulating it from the frame, and weakening the current path from right wheels to frame of which the springs are part.  Tamika contact grease is what I use to hold in place while assembling.  As to gluing the axleboxes to the frame, I’m amazed you have anything that runs even half decently afterwards.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.


Re: coreless motors again

Mick Moignard
 

I’ve used Nigel Lawton’s belt drives in a few laces, notably Erie models DRGW #50 diesel with the primary intention of getting rid of the train of straight cut gears in the primary drive, so that it is quiet enough for sound. Works just fine, and still pulls.  Mine will shove 10 Blackstone cars, sometimes more, up a 2.5% grade. Recommended.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.


Re: coreless motors again

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

I have remotored three of the late model Key C-18's.  I found Sagami motors in all three, and all three motors had unacceptable clogging.  I put Faulhaber 1319's in all three and they remain my best running small HOn3 locomotives eight years after their addition.  I've had similar experiences with Namiki motors as you have described.  After nearly going crazy dealing with those tiny driver springs and coming to the conclusion that they really contribute nothing to suspension improvement in HO scale (years ago someone noted that the physics of real springs in prototype locomotives require mass that makes it virtually impossible to get similar performance in small models, even with relatively weak metals) I resorted to a near permanent solution: I epoxy the damn things in place before reassembly . If for some reason (so far not encountered) that I need to remove them from the frame I'll try an acetone soak until the 5-minute epoxy releases them or simply yank them out and replace with spares.  I have yet to see any reason to continue suffering for what may well be a myth.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 12, 2020 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

John Stutz
 

I am surprised that no one has so far mentioned Nigel Lawton in England . His home page is <http://www.nigellawton009.com/VeeTipper.html> and his online shop is at  <" rel="noopener" target="_blank" data-mce-href="http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html>">http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html>.  While he principally supports 4mm scale narrow gauge modeling (009, HOe, HOn30), he is an excellent source of 6, 8 & 10mm diameter coreless motors.  And while these are only suitable for the smallest HOn3 locomotives, thy should be considered for such.

He also offers a range of square rubber belts and pulleys for building quiet drives.  Ted Scannell has used these to build both axle hung <http://www.clag.org.uk/axle-hung.html> and underfloor <http://www.clag.org.uk/lpmu.html> power units for 4mm scale 18.87mm gauge stock.  Not directly applicable to our 10.5mm gauge, but there are  some useful ideas here for powering IC critters and similar size steam. 

John Stutz


Re: coreless motors again

Craig Symington
 

Thanks for reading the article Bruce Dunlevy.

Just to add.  The people on the RepowerAndRegear groups.io list frequently discuss the various ebay motors.  They are mostly into HO standard gauge so much of the motors are larger than we would use in HOn3.  That said, there is a lot of good information on that list that applies to HOn3. 

I've found that the ebay motors are hit and miss and I've ended up buying quite a few over the years before I found some that I really liked.  Usually I'd just order a couple at first to try them.  Once I find a good one then I'll stock up with a larger order if they were still available.  The coreless motors are usually about $11US.  The Mabuchi motors are $2-3 and run exceptionally well.  Certainly as good as a coreless and the torque is unreal.  The big problem with sourcing motors this way is the long shipping time from China (1-2 months) and getting a chance to order again before the motors are sold out.  The various motors come and go all the time.  Also FYI, if you do a bulk order you can often negotiate a better price.  Even with all the hassle of hunting, I've scored some really fantastic coreless motors for cheap prices over the years.

I used to buy from Eldon Shirey (motorman) before he passed away.  His coreless motors were often $40-50 and cans for about $20.  He always had a great selection and good information.  His passing has left a large void in the hobby.  NWSL carries a nice line of can motors too.  I'm pretty sure they are the same $2-3 motors on ebay except they've done all the testing and sampling of motors for you.  I do have a bunch of motors off ebay that turned out to be duds and I'd think NWSL does too.  If you want sure thing without the hunting, NWSL files the void nicely.

I'm working on an upcoming "Brass Bashing" article that uses the Maxon coreless that is second from the right in the photo.  It's exactly the same size as the Faulhaber 1319 which was IMO the king of all HOn3 motors.  The Maxon seems to run as good as the Faulhaber.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source that motor again on ebay.  I did buy a half dozen though.  I wish I bought more.

Cheers!

Craig Symington.


Re: coreless motors again

Climax@...
 

At least the springs were safe from getting chapped!

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: May 12, 2020 6:53 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

FWIW I’ve used a tiny amount of Vaseline or Chap Stick on the tip of a tooth pick to hold the tiny driver springs in place.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 12, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Dale Buxton
 

Jim,

The second run C-18’s brought in by Key Models with the sprung drivers had Sagami motors in them. The motors were quite small and clogged at low speeds. This tended to make the models jumpy at low speeds. 

Someone must have switched out the Sagamis with Namikis. Which is possible. Dick Trusdale did import some Namiki motors separately way back then.

D. Buxton

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 13:21 Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:
I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Lee Gustafson
 

FWIW I’ve used a tiny amount of Vaseline or Chap Stick on the tip of a tooth pick to hold the tiny driver springs in place.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 12, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Jim Spencer
 

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Michael Dunn
 

Steven, Stephen and Jim; thanks for the suggestion. Empire Express appears relatively intuitive. Steven, I am a frequent visitor to your site. Good to know the drawing can be exported into another program. I’ll download the free demo and do a bit of messing-about today.

Jeff, thanks for the heads up on MacDRAFT. Got excited when I first went to the App store and thought I saw a train layout in the first architectural drawing… and then was disappointed to realizet it was actually a giant tub in the master bath! LOL.

Mike


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Jeff Young
 

I use MacDraft.  It has *no* layout-specific additions, but I use it mostly for buildings and don’t really want to learn something else for track plans.


wanted: Troels Kirk DVD on color

Darryl Huffman
 

My friend Joe Melhorn is looking for a copy of Troels Kirk's DVD on color.

If you have a copy to spare, please contact Joe at this address:

toyman@...

Please quote Joe a price.

Please do not respond through the group.

Thanks.

Darryl Huffman
darrylhuffman@...


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Jim Marlett
 

I use Empire Express also and recommend it. It doesn’t have a lot of bells and whistles, but it gets the job done.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On May 11, 2020, at 2:34 PM, Stephen Silver via groups.io <ssilver996@...> wrote:

I use Empire Express as well on my iMac and MBA.  Doing a fairly good job for me.

Stephen Silver

Life is mostly attitude and timing


On Monday, May 11, 2020, 02:50:58 PM EDT, Steven Haworth <haworth7@...> wrote:


Love love love Empire Express - used it on my layout design.  It's on the Apple AppStore.

- Steve Haworth
RGS history - http://www.rgsrr.info/
Blog - http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/               FB - https://www.facebook.com/stevesrgs/


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Dunn <mdunn@...> wrote:
Historically, I have used Adobe Illustrator with Hot Door's CADTools and Rick Johnson's Graffix Trackplan plug-ins. Rick hasn't updated his plug-ins in years though.

Any recommendation for a substitute that will run natively on a Mac (i.e. with out having to run Bootcamp, Parallels, Crossover, etc.)? I'm handlaying using Fast Track jigs, so a dedicated manufacturers library isn't necessarily needed.

Any specific likes or dislikes of what others have used?

Thanks in advance!

Mike




Re: coreless motors again

Robert Veefkind
 



In a message dated 5/11/2020 7:52:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, ebtmodeler@... writes:

Gents I have found with the light copper spring you can loose the springs to vaporization. Short period of high current draw can melt the springs! 
I have two or three locos that have lost more than half their springs over the years.
I usually replace them with steel springs cut down to fit!
Just info to think about.

I have a stash of NWSL springs around here somewhere
Where did you find these springs you cut down ?    and any secrets to keeping them in place while you fit the drivers in   Bob V.