Date   

Re: coreless motors again

Mick Moignard
 

I’ve used Nigel Lawton’s belt drives in a few laces, notably Erie models DRGW #50 diesel with the primary intention of getting rid of the train of straight cut gears in the primary drive, so that it is quiet enough for sound. Works just fine, and still pulls.  Mine will shove 10 Blackstone cars, sometimes more, up a 2.5% grade. Recommended.

Mick

________________________________
Mick Moignard
m: +44 7774 652504
Skype: mickmoignard

, so please excuse the typos.


Re: coreless motors again

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

I have remotored three of the late model Key C-18's.  I found Sagami motors in all three, and all three motors had unacceptable clogging.  I put Faulhaber 1319's in all three and they remain my best running small HOn3 locomotives eight years after their addition.  I've had similar experiences with Namiki motors as you have described.  After nearly going crazy dealing with those tiny driver springs and coming to the conclusion that they really contribute nothing to suspension improvement in HO scale (years ago someone noted that the physics of real springs in prototype locomotives require mass that makes it virtually impossible to get similar performance in small models, even with relatively weak metals) I resorted to a near permanent solution: I epoxy the damn things in place before reassembly . If for some reason (so far not encountered) that I need to remove them from the frame I'll try an acetone soak until the 5-minute epoxy releases them or simply yank them out and replace with spares.  I have yet to see any reason to continue suffering for what may well be a myth.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Tue, May 12, 2020 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

John Stutz
 

I am surprised that no one has so far mentioned Nigel Lawton in England . His home page is <http://www.nigellawton009.com/VeeTipper.html> and his online shop is at  <" rel="noopener" target="_blank" data-mce-href="http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html>">http://www.nigellawton009.com/PayPal.html>.  While he principally supports 4mm scale narrow gauge modeling (009, HOe, HOn30), he is an excellent source of 6, 8 & 10mm diameter coreless motors.  And while these are only suitable for the smallest HOn3 locomotives, thy should be considered for such.

He also offers a range of square rubber belts and pulleys for building quiet drives.  Ted Scannell has used these to build both axle hung <http://www.clag.org.uk/axle-hung.html> and underfloor <http://www.clag.org.uk/lpmu.html> power units for 4mm scale 18.87mm gauge stock.  Not directly applicable to our 10.5mm gauge, but there are  some useful ideas here for powering IC critters and similar size steam. 

John Stutz


Re: coreless motors again

Craig Symington
 

Thanks for reading the article Bruce Dunlevy.

Just to add.  The people on the RepowerAndRegear groups.io list frequently discuss the various ebay motors.  They are mostly into HO standard gauge so much of the motors are larger than we would use in HOn3.  That said, there is a lot of good information on that list that applies to HOn3. 

I've found that the ebay motors are hit and miss and I've ended up buying quite a few over the years before I found some that I really liked.  Usually I'd just order a couple at first to try them.  Once I find a good one then I'll stock up with a larger order if they were still available.  The coreless motors are usually about $11US.  The Mabuchi motors are $2-3 and run exceptionally well.  Certainly as good as a coreless and the torque is unreal.  The big problem with sourcing motors this way is the long shipping time from China (1-2 months) and getting a chance to order again before the motors are sold out.  The various motors come and go all the time.  Also FYI, if you do a bulk order you can often negotiate a better price.  Even with all the hassle of hunting, I've scored some really fantastic coreless motors for cheap prices over the years.

I used to buy from Eldon Shirey (motorman) before he passed away.  His coreless motors were often $40-50 and cans for about $20.  He always had a great selection and good information.  His passing has left a large void in the hobby.  NWSL carries a nice line of can motors too.  I'm pretty sure they are the same $2-3 motors on ebay except they've done all the testing and sampling of motors for you.  I do have a bunch of motors off ebay that turned out to be duds and I'd think NWSL does too.  If you want sure thing without the hunting, NWSL files the void nicely.

I'm working on an upcoming "Brass Bashing" article that uses the Maxon coreless that is second from the right in the photo.  It's exactly the same size as the Faulhaber 1319 which was IMO the king of all HOn3 motors.  The Maxon seems to run as good as the Faulhaber.  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to source that motor again on ebay.  I did buy a half dozen though.  I wish I bought more.

Cheers!

Craig Symington.


Re: coreless motors again

Climax@...
 

At least the springs were safe from getting chapped!

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: May 12, 2020 6:53 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] coreless motors again

FWIW I’ve used a tiny amount of Vaseline or Chap Stick on the tip of a tooth pick to hold the tiny driver springs in place.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 12, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Dale Buxton
 

Jim,

The second run C-18’s brought in by Key Models with the sprung drivers had Sagami motors in them. The motors were quite small and clogged at low speeds. This tended to make the models jumpy at low speeds. 

Someone must have switched out the Sagamis with Namikis. Which is possible. Dick Trusdale did import some Namiki motors separately way back then.

D. Buxton

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 13:21 Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:
I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Lee Gustafson
 

FWIW I’ve used a tiny amount of Vaseline or Chap Stick on the tip of a tooth pick to hold the tiny driver springs in place.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 12, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Jim Spencer <trainmanjs@...> wrote:

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: coreless motors again

Jim Spencer
 

I have a pair of the Key C-18 late runs with the sprung drivers.  Both have Namiki motors, a slower running version of a coreless motor.  But I don't know whether they are original to that run. Now I'm curious.  The Namikis that were used in Westsides of that period have tended to have their lubricants in sealed bearings dry out, then weaken their pulling power.  I took the slower running one, put it on its end and put a drop of Labelle 109 on the shaft at the bearing, then ran it for a couple of hours.  The idea was that the oil would migrate through the seals into the bearing.  It worked!
My experience with Sagami's (marketed by NWSL) was never good.  Now in reading, I know why. The Machimas are better.
On the question retaining the tiny driver springs, I have used a drop of canopy glue (that doesn't fully harden) to hold the spring in place when reinstalling the drivers, etc. Seems to work in that I haven't lost any since I started doing that.  It doesn't seem to affect the springing action.


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Michael Dunn
 

Steven, Stephen and Jim; thanks for the suggestion. Empire Express appears relatively intuitive. Steven, I am a frequent visitor to your site. Good to know the drawing can be exported into another program. I’ll download the free demo and do a bit of messing-about today.

Jeff, thanks for the heads up on MacDRAFT. Got excited when I first went to the App store and thought I saw a train layout in the first architectural drawing… and then was disappointed to realizet it was actually a giant tub in the master bath! LOL.

Mike


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Jeff Young
 

I use MacDraft.  It has *no* layout-specific additions, but I use it mostly for buildings and don’t really want to learn something else for track plans.


wanted: Troels Kirk DVD on color

Darryl Huffman
 

My friend Joe Melhorn is looking for a copy of Troels Kirk's DVD on color.

If you have a copy to spare, please contact Joe at this address:

toyman@...

Please quote Joe a price.

Please do not respond through the group.

Thanks.

Darryl Huffman
darrylhuffman@...


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Jim Marlett
 

I use Empire Express also and recommend it. It doesn’t have a lot of bells and whistles, but it gets the job done.

Jim Marlett
http://flatheaddrag.com/
http://jimmarlett.zenfolio.com/


On May 11, 2020, at 2:34 PM, Stephen Silver via groups.io <ssilver996@...> wrote:

I use Empire Express as well on my iMac and MBA.  Doing a fairly good job for me.

Stephen Silver

Life is mostly attitude and timing


On Monday, May 11, 2020, 02:50:58 PM EDT, Steven Haworth <haworth7@...> wrote:


Love love love Empire Express - used it on my layout design.  It's on the Apple AppStore.

- Steve Haworth
RGS history - http://www.rgsrr.info/
Blog - http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/               FB - https://www.facebook.com/stevesrgs/


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Dunn <mdunn@...> wrote:
Historically, I have used Adobe Illustrator with Hot Door's CADTools and Rick Johnson's Graffix Trackplan plug-ins. Rick hasn't updated his plug-ins in years though.

Any recommendation for a substitute that will run natively on a Mac (i.e. with out having to run Bootcamp, Parallels, Crossover, etc.)? I'm handlaying using Fast Track jigs, so a dedicated manufacturers library isn't necessarily needed.

Any specific likes or dislikes of what others have used?

Thanks in advance!

Mike




Re: coreless motors again

Robert Veefkind
 



In a message dated 5/11/2020 7:52:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, ebtmodeler@... writes:

Gents I have found with the light copper spring you can loose the springs to vaporization. Short period of high current draw can melt the springs! 
I have two or three locos that have lost more than half their springs over the years.
I usually replace them with steel springs cut down to fit!
Just info to think about.

I have a stash of NWSL springs around here somewhere
Where did you find these springs you cut down ?    and any secrets to keeping them in place while you fit the drivers in   Bob V.




Re: coreless motors again

Ric Case
 

Gents I have found with the light copper spring you can loose the springs to vaporization. Short period of high current draw can melt the springs! 
I have two or three locos that have lost more than half their springs over the years.
I usually replace them with steel springs cut down to fit!
Just info to think about.

Ric Case 
EBT Modeler 
Hamilton Ohio 
1-513-375-7694

On May 11, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...> wrote:


Bob,

Well, that would do it!

This is a coincidence of timing. Saturday I did and TCS WOW sound install on a Colorado Midland 300 class 2-8-0. Long ago I had put whimpy springs under the wheel bearings. I wanted the model to equalize and travel better. Then I put the project away. Now 30+ years later I've returned to the project. I'm trying to make a D&RG C-39 or C-41 class 2-8-0. So, I had cut the bronze coil springs I used about in half. Well, the springs under the rear drivers were in there so loose that the drivers traveled too far up and the insides of the driver flanges were rubbing on the bottom of the sloped part of the firebox next to the frame. The insulated driver was intermittently shorting out when it touched the bottom of the firebox. Fortunately, I found this out before I put the decoder in! I too put my model in a foam cradle and found that one of the springs had disappeared. I replaced springs on this driver set with stiffer steel versions and the upwards travel problem and short went away.

I as well have experienced the joys of driver springs popping out while working on the drive train of a PFM K-27.

D. Buxton 

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:38 AM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Stephen Silver
 

I use Empire Express as well on my iMac and MBA.  Doing a fairly good job for me.

Stephen Silver

Life is mostly attitude and timing


On Monday, May 11, 2020, 02:50:58 PM EDT, Steven Haworth <haworth7@...> wrote:


Love love love Empire Express - used it on my layout design.  It's on the Apple AppStore.

- Steve Haworth
RGS history - http://www.rgsrr.info/
Blog - http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/               FB - https://www.facebook.com/stevesrgs/


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Dunn <mdunn@...> wrote:
Historically, I have used Adobe Illustrator with Hot Door's CADTools and Rick Johnson's Graffix Trackplan plug-ins. Rick hasn't updated his plug-ins in years though.

Any recommendation for a substitute that will run natively on a Mac (i.e. with out having to run Bootcamp, Parallels, Crossover, etc.)? I'm handlaying using Fast Track jigs, so a dedicated manufacturers library isn't necessarily needed.

Any specific likes or dislikes of what others have used?

Thanks in advance!

Mike


Re: Mac based Layout Planning Software

Steven Haworth
 

Love love love Empire Express - used it on my layout design.  It's on the Apple AppStore.

- Steve Haworth
RGS history - http://www.rgsrr.info/
Blog - http://rgsrr.blogspot.com/               FB - https://www.facebook.com/stevesrgs/


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Dunn <mdunn@...> wrote:
Historically, I have used Adobe Illustrator with Hot Door's CADTools and Rick Johnson's Graffix Trackplan plug-ins. Rick hasn't updated his plug-ins in years though.

Any recommendation for a substitute that will run natively on a Mac (i.e. with out having to run Bootcamp, Parallels, Crossover, etc.)? I'm handlaying using Fast Track jigs, so a dedicated manufacturers library isn't necessarily needed.

Any specific likes or dislikes of what others have used?

Thanks in advance!

Mike


Re: coreless motors again

Dale Buxton
 

Bob,

Well, that would do it!

This is a coincidence of timing. Saturday I did and TCS WOW sound install on a Colorado Midland 300 class 2-8-0. Long ago I had put whimpy springs under the wheel bearings. I wanted the model to equalize and travel better. Then I put the project away. Now 30+ years later I've returned to the project. I'm trying to make a D&RG C-39 or C-41 class 2-8-0. So, I had cut the bronze coil springs I used about in half. Well, the springs under the rear drivers were in there so loose that the drivers traveled too far up and the insides of the driver flanges were rubbing on the bottom of the sloped part of the firebox next to the frame. The insulated driver was intermittently shorting out when it touched the bottom of the firebox. Fortunately, I found this out before I put the decoder in! I too put my model in a foam cradle and found that one of the springs had disappeared. I replaced springs on this driver set with stiffer steel versions and the upwards travel problem and short went away.

I as well have experienced the joys of driver springs popping out while working on the drive train of a PFM K-27.

D. Buxton 


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:38 AM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Mac based Layout Planning Software

Michael Dunn
 

Historically, I have used Adobe Illustrator with Hot Door's CADTools and Rick Johnson's Graffix Trackplan plug-ins. Rick hasn't updated his plug-ins in years though.

Any recommendation for a substitute that will run natively on a Mac (i.e. with out having to run Bootcamp, Parallels, Crossover, etc.)? I'm handlaying using Fast Track jigs, so a dedicated manufacturers library isn't necessarily needed.

Any specific likes or dislikes of what others have used?

Thanks in advance!

Mike


Re: coreless motors again

Climax@...
 

Gremlins found!

-----Original Message-----
From: "Robert Veefkind via groups.io"
Sent: May 11, 2020 1:37 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] coreless motors again

Turns out it wasn't the motor. I had tested the loco by laying it upside down in a cradle with it slightly leaning toward me and putting one lead to the drawbar and one to the frame-it ran fine. I took the lead off the frame and tried the uninsulated drivers and all seemed okay but some hesitation on 2 of them. When I tilted the engine the other way the front insulated driver barely skimmed the driver retaining plate causing a short when the driver moved slightly to that side. moving the retainer plate slightly cured that problem but still intermittent running on track. Removing the rear driver showed a bigger problem--the bearings, the springs etc was clogged with paint making electrical contact almost impossible. that's a whole new ball game with a lot of work and wondering where the driver springs went.  Bob V.


In a message dated 5/11/2020 12:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, bdunlevy@... writes:

In the latest Gazette (got mine Friday) there is an article by Craig Symington on "Potpourri".  One thing he discusses is micro motors and where he gets them.  Mostly off of eBay.  He shows some of what he has gotten along with other items usually off of eBay.  Take a look and maybe it will give you some ideas of what you want.

Bruce Dunlevy



Re: Staging Track Spacing

Dave Trimble
 

I have a six track yard. 

Given that my layout is used by an operating group, I found, out that by experience, that 2 1/4” is a practical minimum.

Dave

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