Date   

Re: coreless motors again

Robert Veefkind <snookdust@...>
 



In a message dated 5/9/2020 7:10:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, dbtuathaddana@... writes:

you can usually tell if a model has been abused if the screws are "dished" out and this one did not-that said the valve gear hanger was offset and the valve gears hung up, but that has happened to me before and did not harm the decoder. I think the problem I have is getting too casual and not double checking every thing like before.
I printed out your mail and will try to digest some of it.
Thank you very much and lots of good stuff there. You should keep a copy of your email as you will probably get this question again. I do have a Sagami 1630 saved and I know this is a fine motor for dc and dcc      again thanks   Bob V.

So are you the first and only owner o this K-27? If not do you think it might have been abused?
If the answer to both questions is no not. I think it is safe to say you have a motor with a bad coil winding segment. Just enough of one to drive DCC insane.

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:03 PM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind

 



Re: LocoDoc

Ray
 

That would be Zim Zimmerman. 
I do not think that there's a resemblance to Wayne however. 
--
Ray in Colorado


Re: coreless motors again

Dale Buxton
 

Bob,

Let me start by saying that I have the greatest of respect for your talents. You are without a doubt in my book the Kemtron C-16 kit building champion.

So are you the first and only owner o this K-27? If not do you think it might have been abused?
If the answer to both questions is no not. I think it is safe to say you have a motor with a bad coil winding segment. Just enough of one to drive DCC insane.

The Real answer to your question is not an easy or short one. So I apologize if I seem to run on and on.

Second, I'm not an electrical engineer. But I had all of this explained to me by several a model railroaders that were.

Micro/Bell armature motors, because of their design have an extremely low coefficient of drag and a extremely efficient use of Electro-magnetic force. The can run on voltages so low that a 1.5 volt lamp in series with one will not even illuminate but the motor will be turning!

So the PFM 1977 K-27 did not come with a micro or bell armature motor. It came with 16mm diameter Japanese made can motor, and a pretty good one at that. I have ten or so of theses models so I am 100% sure of my statement here. That being said, it is an imperfect world and every once in a while, a lemon gets into production. In this case your diagnosis sounds like a bad segment in one of the winding coils of the motor. I've seen this before. Not often mind you but, it can happen.  I too have seen defective can motors that would run on DC but not DCC. This is why I now bench-test my motors with their decoders and stress-test them before I put them in the models. I love ESU's little "Decoder Testor" for this!

It also sounds like the thermal sensor in the decoders were overheating while trying to protect the decoder but, finally gave up and died. The earlier thermal protection sensors in decoders of just a few years ago are not as sophisticated as the ones being produced in today's decoders. Continuing to operate a motor with a defective coil winding (even if it is a marginal defect) on DCC will eventually destroy the motor on top of just destroying decoders. This is because of the way DCC current is introduced into the motor from the decoder.

DCC from the very begging embraced "Carrier Wave Technology". In the last twenty years DCC has refined its carrier wave to include cleaner pulse wave modulation and an item called "Back EMF". Back EMF was from the very beginning developed for instrument motor control, i.e. micro-motors or more appropriately "Bell Armature Motors". However, it was quickly found that ALL kinds of motors small and large could benefit from Back EMF for a host of control features.

Before you even get to the motor in DCC systems you have the carrier wave going down the rails. Which on an O-scope looks like a bunch of square ended peaks and valleys. At the end of each peak and valley there is a pulse spike. It can't be avoided. There is just no such thing as a truly perfectly square carrier wave. These waves spikes are kind of hard on the fine magnet wire in the conventional motor windings that are used in our model train motors all by themselves. But, there is a way to filter these waves before they get to the motor

If you ever played around with the old PFM sound systems. PFM sound was a carrier wave system for sound. The Engine Tender Modules had a thing called an RF-Trap and pair of back to back capacitors with a bridge rectifier. These items in conjunction to each other filtered the carrier sound wave to the speaker and protected the motor windings. The motor windings kind of mimicked a voice coil of a speaker. If you put your ear real close to the motor windings (open frame or can) and hit the whistle lever. You could faintly hear the whistle sound reverberating in the motor windings. The RF-Trap was used to eliminate this effect and protect the motor coils from the pulse wave spikes.

When PFM Sound users started using micro-motors in a PFM sound system. It was discovered that the bell armatures amplified the sound across the bell coils simple because its shape was even more like that of the voice coil of a speaker! Another type of filter to stop this and protect the motor needed to be created. A solid state electronic version.

On early DCC systems, the information carrier wave could be heard buzzing across the coils of finer can motors and micro-motors. What was not talked about was that the pulse spikes in that carrier wave could still hurt these motors. Since these high-end motors were made in Germany and Switzerland, Märklin and ESU also German companies, got right on the problem to incorporate solid state electronics to eliminate the noisy motor syndrome and protect the delicate motor winding s of the instrument motors. All the other decoder manufacturers quickly followed suit. ESU also has a thermal sensor in there connected to an electronic circuit breaker that will only re-engage after the unit has cooled down enough to operate safely.
Sometimes the cool-down cycle can take10 or so minutes. In the mean time your are thinking that you have burned out your decoder!

I hope this helped.

D. Buxton

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:03 PM Robert Veefkind via groups.io <snookdust=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Mike Conder
 

Two places in Houston have the paint?   Are they Pqpa Ben's and Spring Crossing, or is there another one?   Always looking for good places. 

I get down there once a year or so, couple of kids and a bunch of grandkids are on FM 1960 and Cypress area, near that Home Depot. 

Mike Conder

On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 12:40 PM Brian Jansky <brianj844@...> wrote:
Thanks for the responses!

I do agree with the point of cars being different shades of boxcar red and pretty much knew that no color would match the Blackstone color but my thought was to get close and then I could vary the shades from there to my liking. 

A friend of mine, from years back, does decent at painting models and recommended Tru Color so that is why I am leaning towards using them. Two hobby shops in the area carry Tru Color as well so that is another plus. Also, thanks for the tips on hitting the 216 with a bit of yellow or white to lighten it up a bit or maybe try 202. 

My only cautions are the fact that I heard that Tru Color can fog in humid conditions due to the use of Acetone as a solvent in it. I live in Houston, Tx and was planning on painting in a little shed beside my house which is not climate controlled so am worried about the humidity. I read on an old thread on Train Orders about Tru Color paints and it mentioned a "retarder to combat blushing in high humidity environments." but I haven't found out what that would be yet. 

I will look a little into 
Vallejo and Star Brand as well.


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

tonyk537
 

I have shot a little Tru Color and it was alright.  Not a fan of Vallejo at all.   I shoot a lot of PBLs Star Brand and love it.  I use a lot of Scalecoat and love it also.  Scalecoat is also so easy to obtain and has, by far, the most usable colors with a variety of boxcar reds, oxide and others.  They also have strippers, primers and other useful items.

All three Blackstone colors weathered are pictured.


coreless motors again

Robert Veefkind <snookdust@...>
 

This was discussed many times but I missed out on it somehow.

I have a PFM 1977 run k-27 that I think has the coreless motor-not sure-it ate up a digitax dz 125 and before that a tsu 1100 at $125. The engine ran great for 2 minutes then the sound quit then the engine would run 3 feet or so and stop then run another 3 feet and then nothing. Resetting didn't help. It ran fine on dc. I've done quite a few installs with few problems. Any thoughts on that motor?   The decoder was warm but not burnt as far as I could see.     Bob Veefkind


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Brian Jansky
 

Thanks for the responses!

I do agree with the point of cars being different shades of boxcar red and pretty much knew that no color would match the Blackstone color but my thought was to get close and then I could vary the shades from there to my liking. 

A friend of mine, from years back, does decent at painting models and recommended Tru Color so that is why I am leaning towards using them. Two hobby shops in the area carry Tru Color as well so that is another plus. Also, thanks for the tips on hitting the 216 with a bit of yellow or white to lighten it up a bit or maybe try 202. 

My only cautions are the fact that I heard that Tru Color can fog in humid conditions due to the use of Acetone as a solvent in it. I live in Houston, Tx and was planning on painting in a little shed beside my house which is not climate controlled so am worried about the humidity. I read on an old thread on Train Orders about Tru Color paints and it mentioned a "retarder to combat blushing in high humidity environments." but I haven't found out what that would be yet. 

I will look a little into 
Vallejo and Star Brand as well.


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

I use 91% isopropyl alcohol and stiff brushes on the exterior finish.  The underframes are another matter as the black they use is nearly impervious to alcohol.  It does loosen up enough to be scraped away from the metal floor with the blade of a small screw driver or similar tool.  Pretty tedious but doable.  Sometimes the body is totally clean after stripping, but there is a tendency for a very fine whitish precipitate to form on some of the surfaces.  This stuff resembles a very fine grit and I have found that the only way to deal with it is to polish it off with a clean soft cloth.  I wrote up a more detailed account of my Blackstone refinishing method for the group on 2/23/2019.  Unfortunately, it may have been posted by the notorious "Stop These Emails", a screen name that only God knows how got substituted for my real name earlier.  If you can't find the post in the group archives, let me know and I will send a copy to your personal e-mail.


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bell via groups.io <ionhoss@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io <HOn3@groups.io>
Sent: Sat, May 9, 2020 8:55 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Lawrence,
What do you use to strip paint from the Blackstone cars?  Thanks!

Rob Bell
Waynesville, NC


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Robert Bell
 

Lawrence,
What do you use to strip paint from the Blackstone cars?  Thanks!

Rob Bell
Waynesville, NC


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

Give me a bottle of Star Brand Light Freight Car Red and some of the other colors that PBL has available and I can mix up all of the color versions in the photo.  I was struck long ago by the incredible variety of colors on a typical string of cars stored in Chama, and found plenty of good color photos taken in the 50's and 60's that reinforced the need to reflect this variety in my modeling efforts.  In more recent times, I've noticed more uniformity in car color in the rolling stock in Chama, largely due to the efforts of the volunteer  organizations committed to long term preservation and the improved color stability of modern paints.  This can mislead people into thinking that Blackstone's choice of colors is the holy grail.  Not so in the old days, for sure.  I'm one of those nuts who will strip and repaint Blackstone cars to achieve not only a more pleasing color range, but also to take advantage of the excellent lettering available from Thinfilm and San Juan decals.  


-----Original Message-----
From: tonyk537 via groups.io <Tonyk375@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Sat, May 9, 2020 1:36 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Agree completely with Dale.  Don't think any two batches were the exact same color.  Added to that is that the day they were painted the elements started changing the color.  So what is a match for D&RGW freight car red?!?!  

Attached is my favorite picture when people start talking about matching color.  4 cars, 4 colors.  Taken in Durango 1958.  Believe it is a Maxwell, but could be wrong.

Tony Kassin


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

tonyk537
 

Agree completely with Dale.  Don't think any two batches were the exact same color.  Added to that is that the day they were painted the elements started changing the color.  So what is a match for D&RGW freight car red?!?!  

Attached is my favorite picture when people start talking about matching color.  4 cars, 4 colors.  Taken in Durango 1958.  Believe it is a Maxwell, but could be wrong.

Tony Kassin


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Randy
 

Dale and Brian

I am part owner in a hobby shop here in the Salt Lake City area. One of my customers just ordered the Tru-Color Paint #202 (KCS 1950-1969 Freight Car Red) that he says is a very good match for D&RGW freight car red.

I am not sure myself, but my customer claims it is a match

Just an FYI, your mileage may vary

Randy J


Troels Kirk DVD

Bill Koch
 

Back around 2010 or 2011 Troels Kirk put out a DVD titled Realistic Color for Railroad Modeling. Does anyone have a copy I could buy or borrow? Or a suggestion on where I might look to find one.

Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide.

Bill


Re: Tru-Color Paints - DRGW Freight Car Red?

Scott
 

PBL has several different Rio Grande box car colors as well.

Scott McDonald


Re: FS Model Masterpieces Como Rdhse kit

Lee Gustafson
 

These kits have been sold. Thanks

Lee

On May 8, 2020, at 11:06 AM, Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

For sale mint in the box non-smoking house HOn3 Model Masterpiece Como 3 stall round house kit, Model Masterpiece extra 3 stall kit and Model Masterpiece Como boiler house kit. Sold as a lot $125 plus shipping from Zipcode 60464 to your location. Postal money order or cashiers check. No PayPal. This roundhouse is not large enough to accommodate K series locomotives.

Lee Gustafson

Bagustaf at aol dot com



Re: LocoDoc

brian_budeit
 

Not my post to begin with, but thank you to all who responded with other sources for motors. Much appreciated!

brian b

On Friday, May 8, 2020, 08:25:25 AM EDT, <climax@...> wrote:




-----Original Message-----
From: "Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io"
Sent: May 8, 2020 5:55 AM
To: "HOn3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

That was him.  Always great to deal with.  A good guy. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Pete C <sp4450@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Sorry, just to be clear I am referring to Eldon Shirey “the motorman” 🙁


On May 7, 2020, at 3:41 PM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


There was a guy on Ebay.  As I recall, he was known as Motorman.  I haven't ordered from him in years and I ran into some posts that suggested he had died not long ago.  He was my go to for Faulhaber motors.  Given Faulhaber's batch approach  to supplying various sized motors, I bought a large stock of 1319's through Motorman upon his advise.  I finally got them after more than 6 months waiting. They weren't cheap and Motorman gave them to me at cost.   I have used most of them and have none available for resale.  If you want me to check my files for his name and address, I can do that.  However, I am inclined to think he is gone because his advertisements have been absent on Ebay for some time now.  Sorry.


-----Original Message-----
From: brian_budeit via groups.io <brian_budeit@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Lawrence,

you mention having found other sources for the Faulhaber motors. Can you recommend someone?

brian b
On Thursday, May 7, 2020, 11:53:55 AM EDT, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne's problems don't have much to do with China. He repeatedly failed to contact people who became exasperated with his attitude toward basic courtesy in business situations.  He did resort to lying to get out of difficult encounters with angry customers.  He did it often enough with so many people that he effectively destroyed his own reputation.  I never heard of any theft or blatantly illegal behavior, but that would have him running from the law, not sitting in his shop taking orders from unsuspecting clients.  His favorite trick with me was to claim he had misplaced my order form, card number, or whatever bookkeeping mistake he could hide behind.  He totally failed to fill two orders for me for stuff he claimed to have in shop.  Pressing him for a shipping date was an act of futility.  When I read on line that his problems were well know throughout the modeling community and he had pushed a lot of people past their endurance limits, I realized that he just didn't have the kind of mental skills needed to sustain a service business.  This has been going on for at least 10 years, if not more.  I've forgotten the name of the medical condition that Wayne was alleged to have, but it supposedly had something to do with his inability to follow through with things.  I think most of us have basically experienced  a lot of sadness over what all this has turned into because Wayne certainly is knowledgeable, can solve engineering problems that drove many of us nuts, and was a bright ray of hope when his locodoc products were first appearing back in the Gazette.  Maybe it's the broken promises that hurt the most.  I do know that Wayne was active in on line groups when the past explosions of rage and frustration with him occurred, and to my knowledge, he never once publicly responded to anything said, even though it would have helped his reputation enormously.  His silence spoke volumes.    At any rate, while your defense of cottage industry people is thoughtful and well intended, it just doesn't address Wayne's situation.  Wayne really needed to get someone to manage his business and deal appropriately with his correspondence.  I've visited many shops that had guys like him tinkering away in the back room and doing good work.  However, they were usually told not to answer the phone by the shop owner for reasons that became very apparent after actually trying to talk to the guy about something and finding out later that the conversation was never passed on to the owner.  When I tried to deal with him, Wayne was always at the Salida Roundhouse, where he was employed in the afternoons.  The short walk between that shop and his own home must have been littered with Wayne's order forms and phone notes, because he usually claimed that he lost them in his back and forth travels.  I've long since found other sources for Faulhaber motors, but have always wished that I could utilize Wayne's services the way I can most other small time dealers.  


-----Original Message-----
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Very few cottage industry operations start out wit the intent to defraud anybody out of the value of anything.  Being a cottage industry usually means that you are the full boss, in other words you do the advertising, receive orders, get materials, produce something, pack it all up with instructions, take it to get shipped, and start on the next order.  The one things as a cottage industry is they dont have the ability nor resources to mass produce any particular item and store it for God only knows how long or let the stock go dead on the shelf.  They just cannot afford it.  Yes, I have had my problems but in most every case patience is a virtue and they come through.  You might get mad at the delay for your instant gratification fix but life is what it is.  Getting upset and making threats of legal action and involving the USPS only meets with more resistance.  Put yourself in the sellers shoes for once and think about this.  You have two customers, the first wants a dodad and the second wants a dodad too.  You get the order and then order the parts to manufacture the dodad.  The part comes from China and you must order the part.  You do that and it takes a month to get it on the slow boat from China.  In the mean time you are trying to fill other orders at the same time.  You fill the easy orders first to get them out of the way, then move on to the harder orders trying to make everyone happy.  Mean while the two orders for a dodad sit there waiting for delivery of the part needed,.  One of the customers starts writing to you wanting to know this or that.  You do your best to answer him but he keeps on pestering you.  Soon you grow so tired you just stop answering his now threatening and insulting letters.  The second person just sits patiently and waits.  Finally the parts arrive from China and you start manufacturing only to find out China changed the part!  Geesh, the first guy who ordered is now involving the USPS.  You now start to change things and it takes time because you are still getting other orders too.  You get sick, injured, or move.  That all takes time.  You finally get things in order, have redesigned the new part and have it ready to go.  You manufacture the parts and the second order goes out first because he was a gentleman and had patience to let you do your job.  The first person, being the jerk he was to you gets his second.  Why didn't you send him his money back, because it was invested in the Dodad part that was ordered from China and you could not afford to just let it sit on the shelf for God only knows how long.  Cottage industries are not corpoartions with the ability to have a warehouse and accept losses.  In most cases the slightest ripple will shut them down and its usually run not to make a huge profit, but more to stay busy, as an extension of a hobby, or just the love of doing something.  If you want instant gratification and fast service 100% of the time, go with the major manufactures and stay away from Cottage Industries.  If you feel adventuresome, are asking for the unusual, and have patience, go with the cottage industries.  Your not dealing with a corporation, you are dealing with and individual who may have bit off more than he can chew all at once.
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: May 7, 2020 6:50 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

FWIW, I agree with Lawrence, buyer beware. I had to threaten to sue Wayne and bring charges of postal fraud in order to resolve my issue. I will say and post no more on Wayne or this topic. I consider this topic closed. 

Lee Gustafson 


On May 7, 2020, at 4:18 AM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne has a long history of getting a lot of people upset with him.  At one time he offered health problems as a reason for his unreliability.  Over the years, I tried to do business with him three different times.  Only one attempt was successful.  The last time he knee jerked some lies at me in an effort to get me off his ass.  That worked, and I have never gone back.  Some of his antics have lead to near lynch mob formation responses on line and it seemed like he was aware of what he was doing and would make an effort to clean up his act.  It never seems to last however.  With him it's definitely buyer beware.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 6, 2020 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

My recent business experience with Wayne took many emails and phone calls over several months to reach conclusion. I believe he is in the process of moving and may have health issues. The Covid 19 issue may have added to his present situation and work load.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 6, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Steen Mortensen <steenerik@...> wrote:


Spoke to him last September at the convention and tried to order kits, he would not commit,
Sounded like decreasing business unfortunately. Have not heard from him since.
 
Steen
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Robert Herrick
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 2:29 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] LocoDoc
 
Has anyone done business lately with Wayne at LocoDoc? I spoke to him on the phone the end of March and ordered one of his conversion kits, but heard nothing since. I left a voicemail the other day with my phone and email, but have heard nothing. Maybe he's sheltering in place at home.

Bob Herrick
 
<3C40EDED961242B9BC58EEEAE967A571.png>


FS Model Masterpieces Como Rdhse kit

Lee Gustafson
 

For sale mint in the box non-smoking house HOn3 Model Masterpiece Como 3 stall round house kit, Model Masterpiece extra 3 stall kit and Model Masterpiece Como boiler house kit. Sold as a lot $125 plus shipping from Zipcode 60464 to your location. Postal money order or cashiers check. No PayPal. This roundhouse is not large enough to accommodate K series locomotives.

Lee Gustafson

Bagustaf at aol dot com


Re: LocoDoc

Climax@...
 



-----Original Message-----
From: "Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io"
Sent: May 8, 2020 5:55 AM
To: "HOn3@groups.io"
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

That was him.  Always great to deal with.  A good guy. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Pete C <sp4450@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Sorry, just to be clear I am referring to Eldon Shirey “the motorman” 🙁


On May 7, 2020, at 3:41 PM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


There was a guy on Ebay.  As I recall, he was known as Motorman.  I haven't ordered from him in years and I ran into some posts that suggested he had died not long ago.  He was my go to for Faulhaber motors.  Given Faulhaber's batch approach  to supplying various sized motors, I bought a large stock of 1319's through Motorman upon his advise.  I finally got them after more than 6 months waiting. They weren't cheap and Motorman gave them to me at cost.   I have used most of them and have none available for resale.  If you want me to check my files for his name and address, I can do that.  However, I am inclined to think he is gone because his advertisements have been absent on Ebay for some time now.  Sorry.


-----Original Message-----
From: brian_budeit via groups.io <brian_budeit@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Lawrence,

you mention having found other sources for the Faulhaber motors. Can you recommend someone?

brian b
On Thursday, May 7, 2020, 11:53:55 AM EDT, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne's problems don't have much to do with China. He repeatedly failed to contact people who became exasperated with his attitude toward basic courtesy in business situations.  He did resort to lying to get out of difficult encounters with angry customers.  He did it often enough with so many people that he effectively destroyed his own reputation.  I never heard of any theft or blatantly illegal behavior, but that would have him running from the law, not sitting in his shop taking orders from unsuspecting clients.  His favorite trick with me was to claim he had misplaced my order form, card number, or whatever bookkeeping mistake he could hide behind.  He totally failed to fill two orders for me for stuff he claimed to have in shop.  Pressing him for a shipping date was an act of futility.  When I read on line that his problems were well know throughout the modeling community and he had pushed a lot of people past their endurance limits, I realized that he just didn't have the kind of mental skills needed to sustain a service business.  This has been going on for at least 10 years, if not more.  I've forgotten the name of the medical condition that Wayne was alleged to have, but it supposedly had something to do with his inability to follow through with things.  I think most of us have basically experienced  a lot of sadness over what all this has turned into because Wayne certainly is knowledgeable, can solve engineering problems that drove many of us nuts, and was a bright ray of hope when his locodoc products were first appearing back in the Gazette.  Maybe it's the broken promises that hurt the most.  I do know that Wayne was active in on line groups when the past explosions of rage and frustration with him occurred, and to my knowledge, he never once publicly responded to anything said, even though it would have helped his reputation enormously.  His silence spoke volumes.    At any rate, while your defense of cottage industry people is thoughtful and well intended, it just doesn't address Wayne's situation.  Wayne really needed to get someone to manage his business and deal appropriately with his correspondence.  I've visited many shops that had guys like him tinkering away in the back room and doing good work.  However, they were usually told not to answer the phone by the shop owner for reasons that became very apparent after actually trying to talk to the guy about something and finding out later that the conversation was never passed on to the owner.  When I tried to deal with him, Wayne was always at the Salida Roundhouse, where he was employed in the afternoons.  The short walk between that shop and his own home must have been littered with Wayne's order forms and phone notes, because he usually claimed that he lost them in his back and forth travels.  I've long since found other sources for Faulhaber motors, but have always wished that I could utilize Wayne's services the way I can most other small time dealers.  


-----Original Message-----
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Very few cottage industry operations start out wit the intent to defraud anybody out of the value of anything.  Being a cottage industry usually means that you are the full boss, in other words you do the advertising, receive orders, get materials, produce something, pack it all up with instructions, take it to get shipped, and start on the next order.  The one things as a cottage industry is they dont have the ability nor resources to mass produce any particular item and store it for God only knows how long or let the stock go dead on the shelf.  They just cannot afford it.  Yes, I have had my problems but in most every case patience is a virtue and they come through.  You might get mad at the delay for your instant gratification fix but life is what it is.  Getting upset and making threats of legal action and involving the USPS only meets with more resistance.  Put yourself in the sellers shoes for once and think about this.  You have two customers, the first wants a dodad and the second wants a dodad too.  You get the order and then order the parts to manufacture the dodad.  The part comes from China and you must order the part.  You do that and it takes a month to get it on the slow boat from China.  In the mean time you are trying to fill other orders at the same time.  You fill the easy orders first to get them out of the way, then move on to the harder orders trying to make everyone happy.  Mean while the two orders for a dodad sit there waiting for delivery of the part needed,.  One of the customers starts writing to you wanting to know this or that.  You do your best to answer him but he keeps on pestering you.  Soon you grow so tired you just stop answering his now threatening and insulting letters.  The second person just sits patiently and waits.  Finally the parts arrive from China and you start manufacturing only to find out China changed the part!  Geesh, the first guy who ordered is now involving the USPS.  You now start to change things and it takes time because you are still getting other orders too.  You get sick, injured, or move.  That all takes time.  You finally get things in order, have redesigned the new part and have it ready to go.  You manufacture the parts and the second order goes out first because he was a gentleman and had patience to let you do your job.  The first person, being the jerk he was to you gets his second.  Why didn't you send him his money back, because it was invested in the Dodad part that was ordered from China and you could not afford to just let it sit on the shelf for God only knows how long.  Cottage industries are not corpoartions with the ability to have a warehouse and accept losses.  In most cases the slightest ripple will shut them down and its usually run not to make a huge profit, but more to stay busy, as an extension of a hobby, or just the love of doing something.  If you want instant gratification and fast service 100% of the time, go with the major manufactures and stay away from Cottage Industries.  If you feel adventuresome, are asking for the unusual, and have patience, go with the cottage industries.  Your not dealing with a corporation, you are dealing with and individual who may have bit off more than he can chew all at once.
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: May 7, 2020 6:50 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

FWIW, I agree with Lawrence, buyer beware. I had to threaten to sue Wayne and bring charges of postal fraud in order to resolve my issue. I will say and post no more on Wayne or this topic. I consider this topic closed. 

Lee Gustafson 


On May 7, 2020, at 4:18 AM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne has a long history of getting a lot of people upset with him.  At one time he offered health problems as a reason for his unreliability.  Over the years, I tried to do business with him three different times.  Only one attempt was successful.  The last time he knee jerked some lies at me in an effort to get me off his ass.  That worked, and I have never gone back.  Some of his antics have lead to near lynch mob formation responses on line and it seemed like he was aware of what he was doing and would make an effort to clean up his act.  It never seems to last however.  With him it's definitely buyer beware.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 6, 2020 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

My recent business experience with Wayne took many emails and phone calls over several months to reach conclusion. I believe he is in the process of moving and may have health issues. The Covid 19 issue may have added to his present situation and work load.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 6, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Steen Mortensen <steenerik@...> wrote:


Spoke to him last September at the convention and tried to order kits, he would not commit,
Sounded like decreasing business unfortunately. Have not heard from him since.
 
Steen
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Robert Herrick
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 2:29 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] LocoDoc
 
Has anyone done business lately with Wayne at LocoDoc? I spoke to him on the phone the end of March and ordered one of his conversion kits, but heard nothing since. I left a voicemail the other day with my phone and email, but have heard nothing. Maybe he's sheltering in place at home.

Bob Herrick
 
<3C40EDED961242B9BC58EEEAE967A571.png>


Re: LocoDoc

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

That was him.  Always great to deal with.  A good guy. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Pete C <sp4450@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 4:07 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Sorry, just to be clear I am referring to Eldon Shirey “the motorman” 🙁


On May 7, 2020, at 3:41 PM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


There was a guy on Ebay.  As I recall, he was known as Motorman.  I haven't ordered from him in years and I ran into some posts that suggested he had died not long ago.  He was my go to for Faulhaber motors.  Given Faulhaber's batch approach  to supplying various sized motors, I bought a large stock of 1319's through Motorman upon his advise.  I finally got them after more than 6 months waiting. They weren't cheap and Motorman gave them to me at cost.   I have used most of them and have none available for resale.  If you want me to check my files for his name and address, I can do that.  However, I am inclined to think he is gone because his advertisements have been absent on Ebay for some time now.  Sorry.


-----Original Message-----
From: brian_budeit via groups.io <brian_budeit@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Lawrence,

you mention having found other sources for the Faulhaber motors. Can you recommend someone?

brian b
On Thursday, May 7, 2020, 11:53:55 AM EDT, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne's problems don't have much to do with China. He repeatedly failed to contact people who became exasperated with his attitude toward basic courtesy in business situations.  He did resort to lying to get out of difficult encounters with angry customers.  He did it often enough with so many people that he effectively destroyed his own reputation.  I never heard of any theft or blatantly illegal behavior, but that would have him running from the law, not sitting in his shop taking orders from unsuspecting clients.  His favorite trick with me was to claim he had misplaced my order form, card number, or whatever bookkeeping mistake he could hide behind.  He totally failed to fill two orders for me for stuff he claimed to have in shop.  Pressing him for a shipping date was an act of futility.  When I read on line that his problems were well know throughout the modeling community and he had pushed a lot of people past their endurance limits, I realized that he just didn't have the kind of mental skills needed to sustain a service business.  This has been going on for at least 10 years, if not more.  I've forgotten the name of the medical condition that Wayne was alleged to have, but it supposedly had something to do with his inability to follow through with things.  I think most of us have basically experienced  a lot of sadness over what all this has turned into because Wayne certainly is knowledgeable, can solve engineering problems that drove many of us nuts, and was a bright ray of hope when his locodoc products were first appearing back in the Gazette.  Maybe it's the broken promises that hurt the most.  I do know that Wayne was active in on line groups when the past explosions of rage and frustration with him occurred, and to my knowledge, he never once publicly responded to anything said, even though it would have helped his reputation enormously.  His silence spoke volumes.    At any rate, while your defense of cottage industry people is thoughtful and well intended, it just doesn't address Wayne's situation.  Wayne really needed to get someone to manage his business and deal appropriately with his correspondence.  I've visited many shops that had guys like him tinkering away in the back room and doing good work.  However, they were usually told not to answer the phone by the shop owner for reasons that became very apparent after actually trying to talk to the guy about something and finding out later that the conversation was never passed on to the owner.  When I tried to deal with him, Wayne was always at the Salida Roundhouse, where he was employed in the afternoons.  The short walk between that shop and his own home must have been littered with Wayne's order forms and phone notes, because he usually claimed that he lost them in his back and forth travels.  I've long since found other sources for Faulhaber motors, but have always wished that I could utilize Wayne's services the way I can most other small time dealers.  


-----Original Message-----
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 8:53 am
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Very few cottage industry operations start out wit the intent to defraud anybody out of the value of anything.  Being a cottage industry usually means that you are the full boss, in other words you do the advertising, receive orders, get materials, produce something, pack it all up with instructions, take it to get shipped, and start on the next order.  The one things as a cottage industry is they dont have the ability nor resources to mass produce any particular item and store it for God only knows how long or let the stock go dead on the shelf.  They just cannot afford it.  Yes, I have had my problems but in most every case patience is a virtue and they come through.  You might get mad at the delay for your instant gratification fix but life is what it is.  Getting upset and making threats of legal action and involving the USPS only meets with more resistance.  Put yourself in the sellers shoes for once and think about this.  You have two customers, the first wants a dodad and the second wants a dodad too.  You get the order and then order the parts to manufacture the dodad.  The part comes from China and you must order the part.  You do that and it takes a month to get it on the slow boat from China.  In the mean time you are trying to fill other orders at the same time.  You fill the easy orders first to get them out of the way, then move on to the harder orders trying to make everyone happy.  Mean while the two orders for a dodad sit there waiting for delivery of the part needed,.  One of the customers starts writing to you wanting to know this or that.  You do your best to answer him but he keeps on pestering you.  Soon you grow so tired you just stop answering his now threatening and insulting letters.  The second person just sits patiently and waits.  Finally the parts arrive from China and you start manufacturing only to find out China changed the part!  Geesh, the first guy who ordered is now involving the USPS.  You now start to change things and it takes time because you are still getting other orders too.  You get sick, injured, or move.  That all takes time.  You finally get things in order, have redesigned the new part and have it ready to go.  You manufacture the parts and the second order goes out first because he was a gentleman and had patience to let you do your job.  The first person, being the jerk he was to you gets his second.  Why didn't you send him his money back, because it was invested in the Dodad part that was ordered from China and you could not afford to just let it sit on the shelf for God only knows how long.  Cottage industries are not corpoartions with the ability to have a warehouse and accept losses.  In most cases the slightest ripple will shut them down and its usually run not to make a huge profit, but more to stay busy, as an extension of a hobby, or just the love of doing something.  If you want instant gratification and fast service 100% of the time, go with the major manufactures and stay away from Cottage Industries.  If you feel adventuresome, are asking for the unusual, and have patience, go with the cottage industries.  Your not dealing with a corporation, you are dealing with and individual who may have bit off more than he can chew all at once.
DB

-----Original Message-----
From: "Lee Gustafson via groups.io"
Sent: May 7, 2020 6:50 AM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

FWIW, I agree with Lawrence, buyer beware. I had to threaten to sue Wayne and bring charges of postal fraud in order to resolve my issue. I will say and post no more on Wayne or this topic. I consider this topic closed. 

Lee Gustafson 


On May 7, 2020, at 4:18 AM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno@...> wrote:


Wayne has a long history of getting a lot of people upset with him.  At one time he offered health problems as a reason for his unreliability.  Over the years, I tried to do business with him three different times.  Only one attempt was successful.  The last time he knee jerked some lies at me in an effort to get me off his ass.  That worked, and I have never gone back.  Some of his antics have lead to near lynch mob formation responses on line and it seemed like he was aware of what he was doing and would make an effort to clean up his act.  It never seems to last however.  With him it's definitely buyer beware.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 6, 2020 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

My recent business experience with Wayne took many emails and phone calls over several months to reach conclusion. I believe he is in the process of moving and may have health issues. The Covid 19 issue may have added to his present situation and work load.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 6, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Steen Mortensen <steenerik@...> wrote:


Spoke to him last September at the convention and tried to order kits, he would not commit,
Sounded like decreasing business unfortunately. Have not heard from him since.
 
Steen
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Robert Herrick
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 2:29 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] LocoDoc
 
Has anyone done business lately with Wayne at LocoDoc? I spoke to him on the phone the end of March and ordered one of his conversion kits, but heard nothing since. I left a voicemail the other day with my phone and email, but have heard nothing. Maybe he's sheltering in place at home.

Bob Herrick
 
<3C40EDED961242B9BC58EEEAE967A571.png>


Re: LocoDoc

Lawrence Wisniewski <lwreno@...>
 

Neither Lee Gustafson nor I stated a belief that Wayne was engaged in crooked deals.  Years ago when Wayne had an e-mail posse of disgruntled customers after him, there were also a couple of crooks involved in fraudulent brass dealings also being looked for as well.  Wayne was never part of that mess.  One of the crooks was engaged in a phony repair and painting scam to acquire brass that he would turn around an sell off as his own.  The trouble with really long service turn around times is that it gives crooks a nice window of opportunity to collect booty.  I don't know for sure, but suspect that Wayne could get into trouble with customers who sent in their engines for in shop modifications and then started getting paranoid because of his failures to respond to inquiries.  It's very regrettable when customers have to resort to threats of legal action because of service issues but what else can you do when someone has your locomotive on the other side of the country and you don't get a response from them when you call or write to find out why the job's not done?  There were times when Wayne could come across as on the little too shifty side when he was pressed.  If you have ever worked a retail job, you know that there are times when people can really start getting to you.  You have to learn the mental and emotional discipline to keep your feelings to yourself or it could cost you your job sooner or later.  Customers can be right or wrong, but your smile should never go away.  I really don't think Wayne understood how defensive he could get and how it effected further dealings with the offended customer.  I suspect that with Wayne, if he knew you and liked you, he'd give you quality service.  Otherwise, things might work out but could just as easily go totally to hell.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Buxton <dbtuathaddana@...>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Thu, May 7, 2020 3:54 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

Wayne has always reminded me both physically and personality wise of the owner of a hobby shop that used to be in the south Denver area that dealt primly in brass trains but also in train collectibles Like Lionel. This man did go to jail for mail fraud. Just because of Wayne's physical and demeanor resemblance to this hobby shop owner. I've never felt comfortable with the idea dealing with him. From what I've been reading here, that would seem to be a correct assumption on my part. 
D.Buxton

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:50 AM Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
FWIW, I agree with Lawrence, buyer beware. I had to threaten to sue Wayne and bring charges of postal fraud in order to resolve my issue. I will say and post no more on Wayne or this topic. I consider this topic closed. 

Lee Gustafson 


On May 7, 2020, at 4:18 AM, Lawrence Wisniewski via groups.io <lwreno=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:


Wayne has a long history of getting a lot of people upset with him.  At one time he offered health problems as a reason for his unreliability.  Over the years, I tried to do business with him three different times.  Only one attempt was successful.  The last time he knee jerked some lies at me in an effort to get me off his ass.  That worked, and I have never gone back.  Some of his antics have lead to near lynch mob formation responses on line and it seemed like he was aware of what he was doing and would make an effort to clean up his act.  It never seems to last however.  With him it's definitely buyer beware.


-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Gustafson via groups.io <bagustaf=aol.com@groups.io>
To: HOn3@groups.io
Sent: Wed, May 6, 2020 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [HOn3] LocoDoc

My recent business experience with Wayne took many emails and phone calls over several months to reach conclusion. I believe he is in the process of moving and may have health issues. The Covid 19 issue may have added to his present situation and work load.

Lee Gustafson 


On May 6, 2020, at 2:59 PM, Steen Mortensen <steenerik@...> wrote:


Spoke to him last September at the convention and tried to order kits, he would not commit,
Sounded like decreasing business unfortunately. Have not heard from him since.
 
Steen
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Robert Herrick
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2020 2:29 PM
To: HOn3@groups.io
Subject: [HOn3] LocoDoc
 
Has anyone done business lately with Wayne at LocoDoc? I spoke to him on the phone the end of March and ordered one of his conversion kits, but heard nothing since. I left a voicemail the other day with my phone and email, but have heard nothing. Maybe he's sheltering in place at home.

Bob Herrick
 
<3C40EDED961242B9BC58EEEAE967A571.png>

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