[HOsteam] B&M P4 from a Mantua Pacific


Chris Shinn <cnshinn@...>
 

Davis Starr wrote:


The project is still on going. I located plans for the P4 in the Sept
89
Model RailroadING (not ER). I did some measuring and comparing this
weekend. Close as I can measure here's what I get
P4
Mantua

Driver axle spacing 84" 84"
Driver Diameter 80" 78"
Length, cab to headlight 48'6" 46'6"
Height to headlight 10' 10'
Height to top of stack 14'41/2" 16'
Boiler Diameter 8'6" 8'->9'
Tender length 34' 35'
Tender Height 13' 13'
Pilot wheel axle spacing 7' 8'6"
Pilot wheel dia 36" 30"
Those numbers are all pretty close. You can replace the pilot wheel
with a 36" Precision Scale casting wheel. I did this on a Mantua Mikado
and had no problems with interference with the pilot or the cylinders.
You'll probably have to keep the pilot axle spacing as is, though.



<snip>.
I have a pair of brass classification lamps which need a horizontal
holes
(one on each side of the smokebox) to mount them. I'm wondering how I get
a
hole started at a fairly steep angle to the Zamac boiler. File a tiny
flat
spot and center punch it? Find another class lamp casting with the proper
angle bracket mounting ?
Use a #65 - 70 bit to set a pilot hole. Drill straight in. The use the bit
size
you need and angle it as needed. The pilot hole will keep the bit from
slipping. I had to do this several times when I detailed one of their
Mikes.
Be sure to keep any bit's lubed well so they don't stick or break in the
Zamac (ask me how many #78 - #80 bit's I went through !!!)


I still need to get a front mounting bell. Charles Ro didn't have one.
I'm going to see if I can get the Cal Scale 190-229 one from Bowser
(English
Hobby?)
Bowser/English (same thing) should have what you need.


The new can motor worm gear is still sort of loud at mid speed. I get a
gear growl similar to an Athearn diesel. This week I'll see if I can shim
the motor just right and quiet it down.
That should take care of it. Also, polishing the gears can help.

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada


Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Well, I got rid of the gear noise on the can motor last night. There was
a tiny burr on the new worm, a couple of strokes of a jeweler's file fixed
it. I now have a really nice runner, creeps along nice and slow, tie by
tie, and quietly, no "I'm eating up my gears" noises.
That made me feel so good that I pressed on to install metal pilot wheels.
The Mantua pilot truck is just a flat Zamac casting, two slots for axles.
Axles are retained by lugs that are just squeezed flat with pliers. To get
the old pilot wheels out, you have to file off the lugs.
To hold the new axles in place (after doing violence to the lugs) I made
up a retainer from a piece of 3/8" brass bar stock. I drilled and tapped
four holes for 2-56 screws and was feeling like a real machinist after I got
all four holes to line up right and the brass retainer screwed down to the
underside of the original Zamac pilot truck.
Then I popped open a brand new pack of 33" P2K ribbed back wheels and
oops. The P2k axles are thicker than the Mantua axles and won't fit into
the slots in the Mantua pilot truck. A pair of new "noname" wheels didn't
fit any better. "Noname" wheels are new, came in a plastic box with the
makers name (Kadee? Intermountain? somebody) on a cardboard card which
detached itself from the plastic box and vanished into hyperspace when I
opened the box a couple of months ago for another project. Any how, it's
back to the hobby shop or mail order for pilot wheels with thinner axles, or
doing some really tricky hand filing the widen the axle slots.
I'm trying the store first. Precision scale 36" you mentioned?

I'll try your very tiny pilot hole trick next. I assume you used a pin
vise and drilled by hand?
By the way. I type these things in fixed width courier (typewriter) font.
I notice that some helpful email server, or perhaps egroups converts the
font to a proportional spaced one and then sucks out the white space. The
table of dimensions was a lot neater (numbers in columns, spaced out with
tabs) when it left me.
I see it's damn near unreadable after a couple of servers and clients have
messed with it.

David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Chris Shinn[SMTP:cnshinn@home.com]
Reply To: HOsteam@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 05 September, 2000 8:28 PM
To: HOsteam@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] B&M P4 from a Mantua Pacific

---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

David Starr wrote:


Driver axle spacing 84" 84"
Driver Diameter 80" 78"
Length, cab to headlight 48'6" 46'6"
Height to headlight 10' 10'
Height to top of stack 14'41/2" 16'
Boiler Diameter 8'6" 8'->9'
Tender length 34' 35'
Tender Height 13' 13'
Pilot wheel axle spacing 7' 8'6"
Pilot wheel dia 36" 30"
Those numbers are all pretty close. You can replace the pilot wheel
with a 36" Precision Scale casting wheel. I did this on a Mantua Mikado
and had no problems with interference with the pilot or the cylinders.
You'll probably have to keep the pilot axle spacing as is, though.



<snip>.
I have a pair of brass classification lamps which need a horizontal
holes
(one on each side of the smokebox) to mount them. I'm wondering how I
get
a
hole started at a fairly steep angle to the Zamac boiler. File a tiny
flat
spot and center punch it? Find another class lamp casting with the
proper
angle bracket mounting ?
Use a #65 - 70 bit to set a pilot hole. Drill straight in. The use the
bit
size
you need and angle it as needed. The pilot hole will keep the bit from
slipping. I had to do this several times when I detailed one of their
Mikes.
Be sure to keep any bit's lubed well so they don't stick or break in the
Zamac (ask me how many #78 - #80 bit's I went through !!!)


I still need to get a front mounting bell. Charles Ro didn't have
one.
I'm going to see if I can get the Cal Scale 190-229 one from Bowser
(English
Hobby?)
Bowser/English (same thing) should have what you need.


The new can motor worm gear is still sort of loud at mid speed. I get
a
gear growl similar to an Athearn diesel. This week I'll see if I can
shim
the motor just right and quiet it down.
That should take care of it. Also, polishing the gears can help.

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

David, sounds like you're well on your way! The fix for the front truck was
nice, too. As for removing the wheels I guess you forgot my post about
removing wheelsets from them: just pull the wheels from the axles, the axles
slip out. Aftermarket wheelsets all have larger axles than the Mantuas, so I
just drill out the truck from the side on my small drill press to fit. I
have also just made new trucks to accept whatever wheelset. P2K and Kadee
axles are tapered like prototype being thinnner cross section in the middle
as for freight cars, etc. Preciscion Scale, Cal Scale, Jaybee, etc have
straight axles and are offered without outside stubs. The Nickel Silver
looks really good up there and will aid in electrical pick up, too if you
use metal axles. Their straight axles will ride in the truck's axle slots
better than tapered and not tend to bind. A sliding wheel robs TE and will
climb off the rails, a little lube helps. I have found that sometimes 36"
wheels will hit the frame in some tight turns, so relieve the frame a bit
with a motor tool. This is not a problem with the Mikes.

As for drilling sides of boiler/ smoke boxes for anything such as marker
lights that aren't going in parallel with a diameter, I just start the drill
perpinducular to the tangent with a pin vise, and when the hole is slightly
below the surface, just cock the drill to the line you want to take and keep
drilling. I switch to the hand drill or the drill press at this point. Zamac
drills pretty well at medium speed, and I use "Tap Magic" (or is it Tap
matic?) as a lube for both drilling and tapping. "Liquid Wrench" works
pretty well, too. Since you've done a drill/tap on the pilot truck, you have
a feel for how "gummy" Zamac can be on a machine tool. There is no
substitute for good sharp tools, too.

Keep us posted..will you have pix at some point?

Tom


Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Tom,
Thanks for the tips. I hadn't thought of drilling out the axle slots. I
do have a drill press (old and wobbly but steadier than doing it by hand).
I guess I'm just going to take the pilot truck down to Charles Ro and see
what they got that fits with the least amount of work.
You are right about gummy Zamac. It really grabs onto the 2-56 tap. I
use a pin vise for taps that small and the Zamac grabs so hard the tap slips
in the vise. I get it out with a lot of back & forth twisting. The drill
press can push a larger
drill through it OK but the tiny ones break a lot.
I've been using just about any kind of oil for drilling and tapping. I
never have the special stuff around the shop, but the ordinary 3 in 1, SAE
30 or WD-40 or Labelle seems to do the trick.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@mindspring.com]
Reply To: HOsteam@egroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 06 September, 2000 9:25 PM
To: HOsteam@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] B&M P4 from a Mantua Pacific


David, sounds like you're well on your way! The fix for the front truck
was
nice, too. As for removing the wheels I guess you forgot my post about
removing wheelsets from them: just pull the wheels from the axles, the
axles
slip out. Aftermarket wheelsets all have larger axles than the Mantuas, so
I
just drill out the truck from the side on my small drill press to fit. I
have also just made new trucks to accept whatever wheelset. P2K and Kadee
axles are tapered like prototype being thinnner cross section in the
middle
as for freight cars, etc. Preciscion Scale, Cal Scale, Jaybee, etc have
straight axles and are offered without outside stubs. The Nickel Silver
looks really good up there and will aid in electrical pick up, too if you
use metal axles. Their straight axles will ride in the truck's axle slots
better than tapered and not tend to bind. A sliding wheel robs TE and will
climb off the rails, a little lube helps. I have found that sometimes 36"
wheels will hit the frame in some tight turns, so relieve the frame a bit
with a motor tool. This is not a problem with the Mikes.

As for drilling sides of boiler/ smoke boxes for anything such as marker
lights that aren't going in parallel with a diameter, I just start the
drill
perpinducular to the tangent with a pin vise, and when the hole is
slightly
below the surface, just cock the drill to the line you want to take and
keep
drilling. I switch to the hand drill or the drill press at this point.
Zamac
drills pretty well at medium speed, and I use "Tap Magic" (or is it Tap
matic?) as a lube for both drilling and tapping. "Liquid Wrench" works
pretty well, too. Since you've done a drill/tap on the pilot truck, you
have
a feel for how "gummy" Zamac can be on a machine tool. There is no
substitute for good sharp tools, too.

Keep us posted..will you have pix at some point?

Tom




Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Ken Clark
 

In a message dated Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:18:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Starr, David" <david.starr@analog.com> writes:
<<I plan to cut the plastic ones off the old
Mantua front end and use them since I didn't see any brass ones in the
Walther's book.
I want to have a front coupler that works. The Calscale pilot comes with
a good looking dummy coupler, but the opening in the pilot is way too small
to accept a Kadee shank, unless I filed the loop clean off the shank. I
could take a long shank Kadee, file the mounting loop clean off, file the
shank narrow enough to go through the opening. This would give a Kadee
front coupler with essentially NO side to side swing in it.
Would this work for doubleheading? I'd be happy if it just stayed
coupled and did not derail. I can live without automatic coupling.>>



David,

Another option is using the MKD-4 series coupler, with a small hole already in the shank. Many of the PSC pilots readily adapt to the #5 coupler pocket. Walthers has cut way back on listing brass detail parts, but that doesn't mean that they are out of production, Air compressor shields have been produced in brass, I don't have my PSC catalog with me at the moment, but I remember seeing them when I used to inventory detail parts in a hobby store many years ago. Cary also produces many useful detail parts in brass, but most stores and Walthers do not stock them.

ken


Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Last night I successfully installed a Cal Scale cast brass pilot replacing
the less than exciting plastic one from Mantua. It's fairly straight
forward. On the Mantua, there is a plastic "front end" (pilot + ladders +
air compressor shields)
that attaches to the frame with a single self tapping screw. I removed
this. I cut a 5/8" length of 3/4" brass bar stock, and drilled it to match
the hole in the frame that secured the Mantua plastic part. This makes a
brass front deck. Then after some careful filing to fit, I was able to
solder the Cal scale pilot to the new brass front deck. Cal Scale #315 pilot
is a good match for the B&M P4 drawings.
#318 would be an even better match but the hobby shop only had #315, a
standard boiler tube pilot.
A 210 Watt Weller soldering gun was able to heat up the brass enough to
get a good solder joint, although a big resistance iron would probably be
better. I made a simple jig from wood and brads to hold the parts together
will heating them with the gun. It's a simple butt joint but it seems to be
strong enough.
Now, I have to mount twin air compressors (Cal Scale 240's) on the deck,
cover them with the plastic shields I'm planning to cut off the old Mantua
front end, and install ladders. I plan to cut the plastic ones off the old
Mantua front end and use them since I didn't see any brass ones in the
Walther's book.
I want to have a front coupler that works. The Calscale pilot comes with
a good looking dummy coupler, but the opening in the pilot is way too small
to accept a Kadee shank, unless I filed the loop clean off the shank. I
could take a long shank Kadee, file the mounting loop clean off, file the
shank narrow enough to go through the opening. This would give a Kadee
front coupler with essentially NO side to side swing in it.
Would this work for doubleheading? I'd be happy if it just stayed
coupled and did not derail. I can live without automatic coupling.



David J. Starr