Date   

Re: [HOsteam] Actual "TE" test results

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Well, maybe I'll drop by Staples and see what they have for cheap scales. The
kitchen type scale I use for weighing rolling stock just won't go sideways for
measuring tractive effort.
High school physics suggests that TE for any model that can spin it's drivers
is about 0.2 (coefficient of friction metal on metal) * weight on drivers. The
diesels usually pull better than steamers which I attribute to more weight and
all wheel drive so all weight is on the drivers, no unpowered pilot or trailer
wheels. Seems to me you either add weight, or go with traction tires or double
head...
The "straight & level track" is plenty good enough. It's the grades down at
the club, we cross the Appalachians with better then 2% grade. As is, the
Pacific can get 7-8 cars over the ridge by itself. If I double head I can do
about twice that.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Saturday, 12 August, 2000 10:49 PM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Actual "TE" test results

Hello to the list again, esp you, David,
I'll try to keep this brief, sorry 'bout my "exponential expoundments". I
did go right out to the train room with the postal scale and tho' the
results are not definative, they are an indication. We had an emergency
visit to the Vet today, so have been gone all day.

First, the cheap, plastic scale was zero adjusted so the platen would set
the pointer on zero when held sideways. There was a little binding of the
movement in this position, but it was all I had! So first I tried one of
the Brass Decapods. An old PFM one that has been remotored with a can motor
and is well broken-in, believe me. I used the scale to "catch" the engine
in motion on a code 70 passer that runs at the edge of the layout. I just
let the engine push the platen with it's coupler. I believe test results
would be higher on code 83 or code 100 rail and perhaps on brass rail, too.
Free running speed was maybe 30 SMPH, or about 4 volts. Just enough to slip
the drivers a bit when stopped. Second I tried the same in the reverse
direction. Repeat the test for average and verifications. I did the same
test with a Bachman 4-8-2, and one of my Mantua mike re-dos.

2-10-0 Russian, brass model: fwd 2.0 oz .TE ; Rev, 2.3 oz.
4-8-2 USRA: plastic/metal: fwd 1.8 ; rev, 2.0
2-8-2 Mantua, cast Zamac: fwd 2.4 ; rev, 2.4

These numbers reflect the ability to pull approximately 25 to 35
free-rolling cars on level track, and seems about right for a 2-10-0 or
0-8-0 prototype, but way low for the mike and the mountain. Curiously, these
numbers are higher than expected "corrected" to scale numbers. I guess
model locos are asked to do more work in proportion to their prototypes due
to sharper curves and other factors so need to have more power relative to
thier size.

I know MR and other magazines have more sophisticated test set-ups, and
regularly publish new product's results, including TE (An example is an
On21/2 Porter 0-4-0T did 1 oz.and a Kato SD40 did 2.8oz) but this way I
can judge any inmprovements here at home, and so can you! I definitely plan
to add some lead to the Mikes as a result of these comparisons.

This was a fun little diversion, and I am interested to hear what results
other might get.

Keep steamin'
Tom K




Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Sounds like it might work. I'll give it a try, probably not this time, but
one of these days

David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Casey Sterbenz[SMTP:sterbejj@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Friday, 11 August, 2000 7:57 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

David,

There are several inexpensive graphics programs out there that allow you to
scale a drawing as you print it. Why not try making a drawing of the meter
face you want at a size, say, 10 times the finished size you want, then
print the image at 1/10 the drawing size. That should yield a very neat
looking meter face.

Casey Sterbenz


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Absolutely true. I was going to use my el cheapo digital multimeter to set
the track voltage to 12 just to standardize results and account for any voltage
drop under load. Sounds like 1.5 amps would be reasonable then.
David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: kenrclark@...[SMTP:kenrclark@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Thursday, 10 August, 2000 12:44 PM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: RE: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...



Remember to also measure the voltages involved, in most cases the throttle
position will have to be changed from no load to full load positions.
Depending on the power supply, the same setting might produce 2-3 volts less
at full load, versus no load.

--------------------------------------------------------------------<e|-


Re: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Les Grenz <lesgrenz@...>
 

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Casey Sterbenz" <sterbejj@...>
Reply-To: HOsteam@...
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:18:22 EDT

There are many other shareware and demo CAD programs available for download
through SoftSeek.com. You might want to download a few programs and try
them out before deciding on which one to buy.

For the record, I use a high-end CAD program at work ("Aperture
'Professional'") that is very flexible for printing at various scales.

Casey Sterbenz

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:22:11 MDT
From: "Les Grenz" <lesgrenz@...>
Subject: Re: METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)


Can you suggest any of these graphic programs? I would be interested. Are
you talking about cad programs? I assume so.

Regards from Les Grenz & the
Queen City of the Rockies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey,

Thanks for the info.

Regards from Les Grenz & the
Queen City of the Rockies.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Casey Sterbenz
 

David,

I've had pretty good luck using "MSPaint" (that comes with the Windows NT/95/98 operating system suite) to draw basic things and the MicroSoft "Photo Editor" (that comes with the MS Office 97 suite) to do the scaled down printouts.

There is a freeware graphics program called "CadStd Lite", available for download from SoftSeek.com. This program scales the drawing rather than the printout. That can be inconvenient when making drawings of large items but it should work well for a meter face.

There are many other shareware and demo CAD programs available for download through SoftSeek.com. You might want to download a few programs and try them out before deciding on which one to buy.

For the record, I use a high-end CAD program at work ("Aperture 'Professional'") that is very flexible for printing at various scales.

Casey Sterbenz

Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:22:11 MDT
From: "Les Grenz" <lesgrenz@...>
Subject: Re: METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Casey Sterbenz" <sterbejj@...>
Reply-To: HOsteam@...
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:57:26 EDT

David,

There are several inexpensive graphics programs out there that allow you to
scale a drawing as you print it
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Casey -

Can you suggest any of these graphic programs? I would be interested. Are
you talking about cad programs? I assume so.

Regards from Les Grenz & the
Queen City of the Rockies.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


Re: [HOsteam] LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?

marshall <zephyr03@...>
 

Thomas Beutel wrote:

Anything is possible. The Southern Pacific MK-10 and MK-11 class 2-8-2's
used 51 inch drivers, which would be considered small for a Mikado. I
believe the boilers were larger than those on the USRA 0-8-0. These Mikes
came from shortlines.
What was the driver diameter on N&W's 4-8-0s?

To me, they looked like weightlifters in babybooties . . . . <g>

Marshall


Re: [HOsteam] LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?

Thomas Beutel <fan2472@...>
 

Anything is possible. The Southern Pacific MK-10 and MK-11 class 2-8-2's
used 51 inch drivers, which would be considered small for a Mikado. I
believe the boilers were larger than those on the USRA 0-8-0. These Mikes
came from shortlines.

Thomas


Re: [HOsteam] LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?

Chris Shinn <cnshinn@...>
 

The drivers on the LL 0-8-0 are very small and would look odd as a 2-8-0.
You could, though, probably convert her to a 2-10-0 Decapod. Since most
Decapods had smallish drivers it would look appropriate. I don't know if it
would be anywhere close to a prototype that was ever produced, though.

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Soderblom" <drs@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: [HOsteam] LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?


I have a question that came to mind the other day in seeing the
Life-Like 0-8-0 in MR. Are there valid prototypes that used the same
boiler size and drivers, but as a 2-8-0? In other words, can the LL
0-8-0 be adapted as a 2-8-0?

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD
soderblom@...


LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?

David Soderblom <drs@...>
 

I have a question that came to mind the other day in seeing the
Life-Like 0-8-0 in MR. Are there valid prototypes that used the same
boiler size and drivers, but as a 2-8-0? In other words, can the LL
0-8-0 be adapted as a 2-8-0?

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD
soderblom@...


Re: [HOsteam] LL 0-8-0 as a 2-8-0?

aidrian.bridgeman-sutton <aidrian.bridgeman-sutton@...>
 

While it may be doable, I'm not aware of any road having *modern*
consolidations with drivers of this size - typicaly the switcher would have
drivers around 48". Some older e2-8-s (like the MDC Old Timer) would have
drivers around the 50" mark, but for engines post-1900 57" would be a more
typical figure. The general proportions and details of the P2K engine are
very much those of a later period, so while it could be done you'd end up
with mighty funny looking engine which, as far as I know, wouldn't really
resemble any known prototype.

As an aside - the Spectrum consol is a huge beastie for 2-8-0 and I wonder
why they chose such a big engine - the world is really crying out for a 57"
consol which is far more typical of engines on most roads.

Aidrian

| I have a question that came to mind the other day in seeing the
| Life-Like 0-8-0 in MR. Are there valid prototypes that used the same
| boiler size and drivers, but as a 2-8-0? In other words, can the LL
| 0-8-0 be adapted as a 2-8-0?
|
| David Soderblom


Re: [HOsteam] Actual "TE" test results

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

Hello to the list again, esp you, David,
I'll try to keep this brief, sorry 'bout my "exponential expoundments". I
did go right out to the train room with the postal scale and tho' the
results are not definative, they are an indication. We had an emergency
visit to the Vet today, so have been gone all day.

First, the cheap, plastic scale was zero adjusted so the platen would set
the pointer on zero when held sideways. There was a little binding of the
movement in this position, but it was all I had! So first I tried one of
the Brass Decapods. An old PFM one that has been remotored with a can motor
and is well broken-in, believe me. I used the scale to "catch" the engine
in motion on a code 70 passer that runs at the edge of the layout. I just
let the engine push the platen with it's coupler. I believe test results
would be higher on code 83 or code 100 rail and perhaps on brass rail, too.
Free running speed was maybe 30 SMPH, or about 4 volts. Just enough to slip
the drivers a bit when stopped. Second I tried the same in the reverse
direction. Repeat the test for average and verifications. I did the same
test with a Bachman 4-8-2, and one of my Mantua mike re-dos.

2-10-0 Russian, brass model: fwd 2.0 oz .TE ; Rev, 2.3 oz.
4-8-2 USRA: plastic/metal: fwd 1.8 ; rev, 2.0
2-8-2 Mantua, cast Zamac: fwd 2.4 ; rev, 2.4

These numbers reflect the ability to pull approximately 25 to 35
free-rolling cars on level track, and seems about right for a 2-10-0 or
0-8-0 prototype, but way low for the mike and the mountain. Curiously, these
numbers are higher than expected "corrected" to scale numbers. I guess
model locos are asked to do more work in proportion to their prototypes due
to sharper curves and other factors so need to have more power relative to
thier size.

I know MR and other magazines have more sophisticated test set-ups, and
regularly publish new product's results, including TE (An example is an
On21/2 Porter 0-4-0T did 1 oz.and a Kato SD40 did 2.8oz) but this way I
can judge any inmprovements here at home, and so can you! I definitely plan
to add some lead to the Mikes as a result of these comparisons.

This was a fun little diversion, and I am interested to hear what results
other might get.

Keep steamin'
Tom K


Re: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

A very good idea, but just print the scale to the actual size needed, cut
it out with scissors and paste it over the existing scale plate.

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: Casey Sterbenz <sterbejj@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 4:57 AM
Subject: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)


David,

There are several inexpensive graphics programs out there that allow you
to
scale a drawing as you print it. Why not try making a drawing of the
meter
face you want at a size, say, 10 times the finished size you want, then
print the image at 1/10 the drawing size. That should yield a very neat
looking meter face.

Casey Sterbenz


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

David, We're keeping the old wires a-hummin, eh? You're doing good stuff
there , keep it up.

I will suggest for your meter an ordinary precision wire-wound resistor of
10 watts (12 V at 1.5A = 18 Watts, but on a short duty cycle) will save
space and maybe be more 'do-able". Make it a little higher resistance than
you need and add a series to the meter movement pot, say 100ohms, as a
trimmer for calibration. The basic accuracy of most any common DC panel
meter is only +/- 2%. You can use your hand-held digital meter (possibly .5%
accurate in "current" mode) in series to calibrate the analog one, and
maybe even beat the 2% odds and be NIST traceable! Of course your way will
work just fine, just my .002$ worth. Actually, 1.5A will be a little large
for getting mid-scale readings from can motors that only draw 100mA, and on
a zero-center meter, you'll only have half the scale length to use.

A "Delta trailing truck" is the name that the foundry (Commonwealth, I
think) that designed and made that style of truck gave to it. It was
probably a patented design. Most Locomotive manufacturers and some RR's as
a retrofit adopted this superior design for use under "modern" locos. Viewed
from the top and out from under the engine, it looks like a "delta". My
guess for the naming. It supported the rear frame on both sides with rocker
type bearing pedestals to help keep the truck centered and steer the loco
into and out of curves. The front was pivoted just like our models are on
another bearing plate that also supported that part of the frame. The
triangle from point to point,, ooh, you get it ! Enuff ancient history.

I have an idea about rating model locos, just a little math done after you
gather the Current and Voltage numbers from your tests. Calculate the actual
horsepower, then multiply by 1:87 three times? Certainly you can measure
tractive effort as well, but seeing the engine produce "0.065 lbs". for
example, isn't very impressive. It also doesn't easily compare with the
prototype, either. How 'bout we multiply by the cube of the scale and
convert it to some REAL (scale) numbers. Lets see, working backwards, a
Russian decapod makes about 51,000 lbs of TE, so in HO that should be
0.077lbs of TE. WOW, I guess I hit it pretty close on the .065!... that was
just a guess! So, My Decapods ought to actually pull or push a Spring Scale
(maybe a modified postal scale?) to scale out at these numbers. That would
be 1.23 oz. Hey! I'm going out to the layout and try this with my postal
scale!.... NOW! Stay tuned!

Later,
Tom Knowles

----- Original Message -----
From: Starr, David <david.starr@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...


Well, for "dyno" testing , I got as far as computing the required shunt
for my
ammeter. I have three very nice zero center 100-0-100 uA 1Kohm meter
movements
from the MIT flea market. The dials are marked -15 -10 -5 0 5 10 15, so I
thought I'd wind a shunt to make a -1.5 to +1.5 Amp meter. Druther have a
little more range, but re marking the meter dials neatly is probably
beyond my
skill level.
Let I_shunt = 1.5 A, I_meter = 0.0001 A R_meter = 1000 Ohms
Equation: I_meter * R_meter = I_shunt * R_shunt
R_shunt = (I-meter * R_meter) / I_shunt
R_shunt = 0.06 2/3 ohm
Copper Wire table gives #22 Wire as 61.95 feet per ohm.
0.062/3 Ohms * 61.95 Feet/ohm = 4.129 feet of #22 copper wire.
Let's call it 4' 1 1/2" 'cause my carpenter's steel tape is marked in
fractions
of an inch.

That's about right except rolling 4 feet of wire up into a coil makes a
kind of
bulky coil. Mounting it behind the meter might not be so neat. Let's
scrounge
around the lab at work and find some #24 wire to make the shunt a little
shorter.

Once the ammeter is working then I can measure current draw at
1. 12 volt full speed no load.
2. 12 volt, drivers slipping.
3. Current required to get the locomotive to start from rest.
4. Current at crawl speed.

Presumable the stronger magnets in the can motor (and shorter magnetic
path)
will give more motor torque for less current. Torque needed to slip the
drivers
should be the same, open frame or can motor, so the expected reduction in
current should be a measure of the better magnetics in the can motors.

Tender wheels will be whatever Ron had in mind. He is very good at this
stuff
so I didn't ask any questions after he so kindly volunteered to change 'em
out
for me.

I'd like to make the pilot and trailing wheels pick up juice. Right now
they
are all plastic. With metal wheels I could go with wipers on the wheel
tread
for pickup but experience with one lighted caboose was not too favorable.
The
damn wipers rubbed so hard on the tread it slowed the train down. What
I'd
really like is wheels with "hot" metal axles. Then if you install the
wheels
the right way round you get pickup through the axle rubbing on the truck
sideframe journal. Or you add wipers rubbing on the axle which won't
cause as
much drag as wipers rubbing on the tread.
I'll certainly take a look at opening out the trailing truck. You
called it a
"Delta" truck. Is that a maker's name or a style or ? It's a new word to
me.
Pilot truck wheels are 33" right now and I'm sure I'd have interference
between the pilot wheels and the lead driver if I made them any bigger.
That
clearance is quite small now. Pilot truck is just a flat plastic sheet
with
axle slots. Axles are retained by sort of molded in lugs. To remove the
existing pilot wheels I will have to file or cut off the lugs. To retain
the
new wheels I was thinking of making a retainer plate the size of the
existing
pilot truck and attaching it with 2-56 bolts and nuts.
I was also thinking of ballasting the pilot and trailing truck with as
much
lead as will fit. Then perhaps I could remove the springs that push them
down
on the track and so gain a little more weight on the drivers. I am
looking for
ways to add weight. Right now the "firebox" is fairly empty and I might
be able
to get 5-6 ounces more weight in there.



David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 10:14 PM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Very good! You are right about the control the gearbox lends to gear
mesh
and lash, too. Get it right (a natural), and the engine will be dead
silent
in motion. Changing out the wheels in the tender is a fine point
overlooked
by many. I use the Cal-Scale 36" pointed or stub-end axles as
appropriate,
especially in the Bowser Commonwealth trucks I like to use. Recommended
also to change out the lead and trailing truck wheels for full metal. I
am
using 36" on the Mikes front, but sometimes have a short due to
interference
on certain curves. I think 33" is a better choice, especially for a
light
Mike anyway.

For the Delta trailing truck, I drill out the reliefs in the sides where
the
pins for the equalizers would be, and also drill the space above the
journal
box, leaving a little in the middle for the bearer. This opens up the
truck
so when PIA 45" spoked wheels are installed, they show up better. These
wheelsets have been hard to get, and $9, but look great. They also add
to
the electrical pick up area available, since they are "polarized". Their
axle is larger than the Mantua so the axle slot must be enlarged to fit.
Also the retainer must be relieved by bending a transverse hump in it
over
the axle. The PIA axle is the same size as a small round Dremel burr, so
I
use that in my drill press like a mill to open up the axle slot for the
PIA
set. The ends of the axles are a little long, too, so the drill press is
used to keep the taper, and shorten them a LITTLE.

It sounds like a lot of work, but the effect is worth it and not that
much
work. It's almost as much trouble just to paint the wheels with all
those
spokes! Doing the front truck is a similar process, but the axle slots
can
be drilled from the side for easy installs. If you have drilled the slot
out
flush to the top, the axles will be self-retaining when installed this
way:
I pull one wheel from the axle, and reassemble the truck. Use a small
insulating washer on the axle end that is the insulated (fireman's)
side.
Side thrusts can push the wheel against the truck frame and cause a
short.
Lubricate!

I hope to have some more pictures up on my web site soon, and the next
batch
will be sure to include some of my Mantuas. You might want to check it
later
on anyway, it's still "under construction". BTW, the A-Line tapered
flywheel
P/N is: 20021 for 2mm shaft, 20013 for 2.4mm.

I am very interested in hearing about your "dyno" results, and the
ins/out
of how you do it. Loco performance will be taken out of the subjective
realm
then! Keep me posted.

Regards,
Tom



----- Original Message -----
From: Starr, David <david.starr@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific


Tom,
I'll take a closer look at the catalog and see if I can get a gear
box.
I
think a gear box is the solution to the worm mesh adjustment problem.
Talking
to the lady on the phone at Mantua, it wasn't clear to me just what
they
had, so
I took what I could get. I'm hoping to make the Pacific into a real
runner by
adding weight to get the tractive effort up. I'm going to finally get
around to
installing the ammeters I picked up at the MIT flea market last year
so I
can
measure the difference. The tender trucks are at a friends shop for
installation of fancy wheels, so I won't be able to do a dynamometer
run
for a
couple of days.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 1:47 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Geez, David, sorry you didn't get the gearbox. In my opinion, this
is
the
key part. At any rate, it's still retro-fittable, but you may decide
to
loose the Supplied Mantua motor mount and move the motor back into
the
firebox, where it will hide. If you look closely at the catalog,
there
are
parts break-downs of "Mikado With Power-Drive", or Pacific, or
Hudson..
There will be P/N's for all the parts you need to build a gearbox.
Don't
bother getting the longer self-tapping screws (for the top of the
box),
they
are almost impossible to get in fully and sometimes break off! The
short
ones work fine. Get extra thrust washers so you can set the end play
in
the
box more accurately. The less play, the better, but the worm shaft
should
turn smoothly when assembled. Finally, the application of an A-line
flywheel
to the motor will set this engine on a par with the best.

The post about the current draw and clean wheels is true. Even the
largest
motors have such low draw (the limiting factor being wheel-slip)
that
your
cleaning sessions will become a special event instead of regular
tedium.
I'll bet the draw will be on the order of 100 mA at 12v, wheels
slipping.

I have put out a new web site, incomplete as yet but there are some
pix
you
might like (no Mantuas yet) .Try www.tomknowles.tripod.com and let
me
know
what you think. You'll be one of the first!

Tom


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Keeping the memory of steam alive!



Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Casey Sterbenz
 

David,

There are several inexpensive graphics programs out there that allow you to scale a drawing as you print it. Why not try making a drawing of the meter face you want at a size, say, 10 times the finished size you want, then print the image at 1/10 the drawing size. That should yield a very neat looking meter face.

Casey Sterbenz


Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:52:50 -0400
From: "Starr, David" <david.starr@...>
Subject: RE: Mantua gearbox, etc...

Well, for "dyno" testing , I got as far as computing the required shunt for my
ammeter. I have three very nice zero center 100-0-100 uA 1Kohm meter movements
from the MIT flea market. The dials are marked -15 -10 -5 0 5 10 15, so I
thought I'd wind a shunt to make a -1.5 to +1.5 Amp meter. Druther have a
little more range, but re marking the meter dials neatly is probably beyond my
skill level.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


Re: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)

Les Grenz <lesgrenz@...>
 

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Casey Sterbenz" <sterbejj@...>
Reply-To: HOsteam@...
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: [HOsteam] METER FACE (was Mantua gearbox, etc...)
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 07:57:26 EDT

David,

There are several inexpensive graphics programs out there that allow you to
scale a drawing as you print it
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Casey -

Can you suggest any of these graphic programs? I would be interested. Are you talking about cad programs? I assume so.

Regards from Les Grenz & the
Queen City of the Rockies.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Well, for "dyno" testing , I got as far as computing the required shunt for my
ammeter. I have three very nice zero center 100-0-100 uA 1Kohm meter movements
from the MIT flea market. The dials are marked -15 -10 -5 0 5 10 15, so I
thought I'd wind a shunt to make a -1.5 to +1.5 Amp meter. Druther have a
little more range, but re marking the meter dials neatly is probably beyond my
skill level.
Let I_shunt = 1.5 A, I_meter = 0.0001 A R_meter = 1000 Ohms
Equation: I_meter * R_meter = I_shunt * R_shunt
R_shunt = (I-meter * R_meter) / I_shunt
R_shunt = 0.06 2/3 ohm
Copper Wire table gives #22 Wire as 61.95 feet per ohm.
0.062/3 Ohms * 61.95 Feet/ohm = 4.129 feet of #22 copper wire.
Let's call it 4' 1 1/2" 'cause my carpenter's steel tape is marked in fractions
of an inch.

That's about right except rolling 4 feet of wire up into a coil makes a kind of
bulky coil. Mounting it behind the meter might not be so neat. Let's scrounge
around the lab at work and find some #24 wire to make the shunt a little
shorter.

Once the ammeter is working then I can measure current draw at
1. 12 volt full speed no load.
2. 12 volt, drivers slipping.
3. Current required to get the locomotive to start from rest.
4. Current at crawl speed.

Presumable the stronger magnets in the can motor (and shorter magnetic path)
will give more motor torque for less current. Torque needed to slip the drivers
should be the same, open frame or can motor, so the expected reduction in
current should be a measure of the better magnetics in the can motors.

Tender wheels will be whatever Ron had in mind. He is very good at this stuff
so I didn't ask any questions after he so kindly volunteered to change 'em out
for me.

I'd like to make the pilot and trailing wheels pick up juice. Right now they
are all plastic. With metal wheels I could go with wipers on the wheel tread
for pickup but experience with one lighted caboose was not too favorable. The
damn wipers rubbed so hard on the tread it slowed the train down. What I'd
really like is wheels with "hot" metal axles. Then if you install the wheels
the right way round you get pickup through the axle rubbing on the truck
sideframe journal. Or you add wipers rubbing on the axle which won't cause as
much drag as wipers rubbing on the tread.
I'll certainly take a look at opening out the trailing truck. You called it a
"Delta" truck. Is that a maker's name or a style or ? It's a new word to me.
Pilot truck wheels are 33" right now and I'm sure I'd have interference
between the pilot wheels and the lead driver if I made them any bigger. That
clearance is quite small now. Pilot truck is just a flat plastic sheet with
axle slots. Axles are retained by sort of molded in lugs. To remove the
existing pilot wheels I will have to file or cut off the lugs. To retain the
new wheels I was thinking of making a retainer plate the size of the existing
pilot truck and attaching it with 2-56 bolts and nuts.
I was also thinking of ballasting the pilot and trailing truck with as much
lead as will fit. Then perhaps I could remove the springs that push them down
on the track and so gain a little more weight on the drivers. I am looking for
ways to add weight. Right now the "firebox" is fairly empty and I might be able
to get 5-6 ounces more weight in there.



David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 10:14 PM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Very good! You are right about the control the gearbox lends to gear mesh
and lash, too. Get it right (a natural), and the engine will be dead silent
in motion. Changing out the wheels in the tender is a fine point overlooked
by many. I use the Cal-Scale 36" pointed or stub-end axles as appropriate,
especially in the Bowser Commonwealth trucks I like to use. Recommended
also to change out the lead and trailing truck wheels for full metal. I am
using 36" on the Mikes front, but sometimes have a short due to interference
on certain curves. I think 33" is a better choice, especially for a light
Mike anyway.

For the Delta trailing truck, I drill out the reliefs in the sides where the
pins for the equalizers would be, and also drill the space above the journal
box, leaving a little in the middle for the bearer. This opens up the truck
so when PIA 45" spoked wheels are installed, they show up better. These
wheelsets have been hard to get, and $9, but look great. They also add to
the electrical pick up area available, since they are "polarized". Their
axle is larger than the Mantua so the axle slot must be enlarged to fit.
Also the retainer must be relieved by bending a transverse hump in it over
the axle. The PIA axle is the same size as a small round Dremel burr, so I
use that in my drill press like a mill to open up the axle slot for the PIA
set. The ends of the axles are a little long, too, so the drill press is
used to keep the taper, and shorten them a LITTLE.

It sounds like a lot of work, but the effect is worth it and not that much
work. It's almost as much trouble just to paint the wheels with all those
spokes! Doing the front truck is a similar process, but the axle slots can
be drilled from the side for easy installs. If you have drilled the slot out
flush to the top, the axles will be self-retaining when installed this way:
I pull one wheel from the axle, and reassemble the truck. Use a small
insulating washer on the axle end that is the insulated (fireman's) side.
Side thrusts can push the wheel against the truck frame and cause a short.
Lubricate!

I hope to have some more pictures up on my web site soon, and the next batch
will be sure to include some of my Mantuas. You might want to check it later
on anyway, it's still "under construction". BTW, the A-Line tapered flywheel
P/N is: 20021 for 2mm shaft, 20013 for 2.4mm.

I am very interested in hearing about your "dyno" results, and the ins/out
of how you do it. Loco performance will be taken out of the subjective realm
then! Keep me posted.

Regards,
Tom



----- Original Message -----
From: Starr, David <david.starr@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific


Tom,
I'll take a closer look at the catalog and see if I can get a gear box.
I
think a gear box is the solution to the worm mesh adjustment problem.
Talking
to the lady on the phone at Mantua, it wasn't clear to me just what they
had, so
I took what I could get. I'm hoping to make the Pacific into a real
runner by
adding weight to get the tractive effort up. I'm going to finally get
around to
installing the ammeters I picked up at the MIT flea market last year so I
can
measure the difference. The tender trucks are at a friends shop for
installation of fancy wheels, so I won't be able to do a dynamometer run
for a
couple of days.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 1:47 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Geez, David, sorry you didn't get the gearbox. In my opinion, this is
the
key part. At any rate, it's still retro-fittable, but you may decide to
loose the Supplied Mantua motor mount and move the motor back into the
firebox, where it will hide. If you look closely at the catalog, there
are
parts break-downs of "Mikado With Power-Drive", or Pacific, or Hudson..
There will be P/N's for all the parts you need to build a gearbox. Don't
bother getting the longer self-tapping screws (for the top of the box),
they
are almost impossible to get in fully and sometimes break off! The short
ones work fine. Get extra thrust washers so you can set the end play in
the
box more accurately. The less play, the better, but the worm shaft
should
turn smoothly when assembled. Finally, the application of an A-line
flywheel
to the motor will set this engine on a par with the best.

The post about the current draw and clean wheels is true. Even the
largest
motors have such low draw (the limiting factor being wheel-slip) that
your
cleaning sessions will become a special event instead of regular tedium.
I'll bet the draw will be on the order of 100 mA at 12v, wheels
slipping.

I have put out a new web site, incomplete as yet but there are some pix
you
might like (no Mantuas yet) .Try www.tomknowles.tripod.com and let me
know
what you think. You'll be one of the first!

Tom


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Keeping the memory of steam alive!



Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Ken Clark
 

<<Once the ammeter is working then I can measure current draw at
1. 12 volt full speed no load.
2. 12 volt, drivers slipping.
3. Current required to get the locomotive to start from rest.
4. Current at crawl speed. >>

Remember to also measure the voltages involved, in most cases the throttle position will have to be changed from no load to full load positions. Depending on the power supply, the same setting might produce 2-3 volts less at full load, versus no load.

For remotoring clinics at recent NMRA conventions, I built a display panel with two LED digital meters showing both voltage (green) and current (red) simultaneously. I used 3/4" LEDs because the 4" analog meter I used in the past was not readible past 3-4 feet. There have been LCD meters available for around $15 that have some of the same advantages of the LED digitals. On our club the needles on analog meters used to get pegged regularly when we had shorts in the track circuit. The LED digital meters I used had a range +/- 20.00 volts and +/- 2.000 amps. and of course no needles to stick. One advantage of the analog meter is that they tend to be averaging, the milliamp changes (on a digital meter) in current draw while a motor is running may be distracting for some, on many analog meters the needle would be hardly moving.For can and coreless motors 300 milliamps is about the maximum range you really need. Some motors draw only 15-25 milliamps (no-load), NWSL can motors!
are around 70 milliamps. A cheap Radio Shack multi-tester with a 300 milliamp range is also useful, I used one for many years until I built the display meters.


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua gearbox, etc...

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

Very good! You are right about the control the gearbox lends to gear mesh
and lash, too. Get it right (a natural), and the engine will be dead silent
in motion. Changing out the wheels in the tender is a fine point overlooked
by many. I use the Cal-Scale 36" pointed or stub-end axles as appropriate,
especially in the Bowser Commonwealth trucks I like to use. Recommended
also to change out the lead and trailing truck wheels for full metal. I am
using 36" on the Mikes front, but sometimes have a short due to interference
on certain curves. I think 33" is a better choice, especially for a light
Mike anyway.

For the Delta trailing truck, I drill out the reliefs in the sides where the
pins for the equalizers would be, and also drill the space above the journal
box, leaving a little in the middle for the bearer. This opens up the truck
so when PIA 45" spoked wheels are installed, they show up better. These
wheelsets have been hard to get, and $9, but look great. They also add to
the electrical pick up area available, since they are "polarized". Their
axle is larger than the Mantua so the axle slot must be enlarged to fit.
Also the retainer must be relieved by bending a transverse hump in it over
the axle. The PIA axle is the same size as a small round Dremel burr, so I
use that in my drill press like a mill to open up the axle slot for the PIA
set. The ends of the axles are a little long, too, so the drill press is
used to keep the taper, and shorten them a LITTLE.

It sounds like a lot of work, but the effect is worth it and not that much
work. It's almost as much trouble just to paint the wheels with all those
spokes! Doing the front truck is a similar process, but the axle slots can
be drilled from the side for easy installs. If you have drilled the slot out
flush to the top, the axles will be self-retaining when installed this way:
I pull one wheel from the axle, and reassemble the truck. Use a small
insulating washer on the axle end that is the insulated (fireman's) side.
Side thrusts can push the wheel against the truck frame and cause a short.
Lubricate!

I hope to have some more pictures up on my web site soon, and the next batch
will be sure to include some of my Mantuas. You might want to check it later
on anyway, it's still "under construction". BTW, the A-Line tapered flywheel
P/N is: 20021 for 2mm shaft, 20013 for 2.4mm.

I am very interested in hearing about your "dyno" results, and the ins/out
of how you do it. Loco performance will be taken out of the subjective realm
then! Keep me posted.

Regards,
Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: Starr, David <david.starr@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific


Tom,
I'll take a closer look at the catalog and see if I can get a gear box.
I
think a gear box is the solution to the worm mesh adjustment problem.
Talking
to the lady on the phone at Mantua, it wasn't clear to me just what they
had, so
I took what I could get. I'm hoping to make the Pacific into a real
runner by
adding weight to get the tractive effort up. I'm going to finally get
around to
installing the ammeters I picked up at the MIT flea market last year so I
can
measure the difference. The tender trucks are at a friends shop for
installation of fancy wheels, so I won't be able to do a dynamometer run
for a
couple of days.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 1:47 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Geez, David, sorry you didn't get the gearbox. In my opinion, this is
the
key part. At any rate, it's still retro-fittable, but you may decide to
loose the Supplied Mantua motor mount and move the motor back into the
firebox, where it will hide. If you look closely at the catalog, there
are
parts break-downs of "Mikado With Power-Drive", or Pacific, or Hudson..
There will be P/N's for all the parts you need to build a gearbox. Don't
bother getting the longer self-tapping screws (for the top of the box),
they
are almost impossible to get in fully and sometimes break off! The short
ones work fine. Get extra thrust washers so you can set the end play in
the
box more accurately. The less play, the better, but the worm shaft
should
turn smoothly when assembled. Finally, the application of an A-line
flywheel
to the motor will set this engine on a par with the best.

The post about the current draw and clean wheels is true. Even the
largest
motors have such low draw (the limiting factor being wheel-slip) that
your
cleaning sessions will become a special event instead of regular tedium.
I'll bet the draw will be on the order of 100 mA at 12v, wheels
slipping.

I have put out a new web site, incomplete as yet but there are some pix
you
might like (no Mantuas yet) .Try www.tomknowles.tripod.com and let me
know
what you think. You'll be one of the first!

Tom


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Tom,
I'll take a closer look at the catalog and see if I can get a gear box. I
think a gear box is the solution to the worm mesh adjustment problem. Talking
to the lady on the phone at Mantua, it wasn't clear to me just what they had, so
I took what I could get. I'm hoping to make the Pacific into a real runner by
adding weight to get the tractive effort up. I'm going to finally get around to
installing the ammeters I picked up at the MIT flea market last year so I can
measure the difference. The tender trucks are at a friends shop for
installation of fancy wheels, so I won't be able to do a dynamometer run for a
couple of days.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Tom Knowles[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Wednesday, 09 August, 2000 1:47 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Geez, David, sorry you didn't get the gearbox. In my opinion, this is the
key part. At any rate, it's still retro-fittable, but you may decide to
loose the Supplied Mantua motor mount and move the motor back into the
firebox, where it will hide. If you look closely at the catalog, there are
parts break-downs of "Mikado With Power-Drive", or Pacific, or Hudson..
There will be P/N's for all the parts you need to build a gearbox. Don't
bother getting the longer self-tapping screws (for the top of the box), they
are almost impossible to get in fully and sometimes break off! The short
ones work fine. Get extra thrust washers so you can set the end play in the
box more accurately. The less play, the better, but the worm shaft should
turn smoothly when assembled. Finally, the application of an A-line flywheel
to the motor will set this engine on a par with the best.

The post about the current draw and clean wheels is true. Even the largest
motors have such low draw (the limiting factor being wheel-slip) that your
cleaning sessions will become a special event instead of regular tedium.
I'll bet the draw will be on the order of 100 mA at 12v, wheels slipping.

I have put out a new web site, incomplete as yet but there are some pix you
might like (no Mantuas yet) .Try www.tomknowles.tripod.com and let me know
what you think. You'll be one of the first!

Tom


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

Geez, David, sorry you didn't get the gearbox. In my opinion, this is the
key part. At any rate, it's still retro-fittable, but you may decide to
loose the Supplied Mantua motor mount and move the motor back into the
firebox, where it will hide. If you look closely at the catalog, there are
parts break-downs of "Mikado With Power-Drive", or Pacific, or Hudson..
There will be P/N's for all the parts you need to build a gearbox. Don't
bother getting the longer self-tapping screws (for the top of the box), they
are almost impossible to get in fully and sometimes break off! The short
ones work fine. Get extra thrust washers so you can set the end play in the
box more accurately. The less play, the better, but the worm shaft should
turn smoothly when assembled. Finally, the application of an A-line flywheel
to the motor will set this engine on a par with the best.

The post about the current draw and clean wheels is true. Even the largest
motors have such low draw (the limiting factor being wheel-slip) that your
cleaning sessions will become a special event instead of regular tedium.
I'll bet the draw will be on the order of 100 mA at 12v, wheels slipping.

I have put out a new web site, incomplete as yet but there are some pix you
might like (no Mantuas yet) .Try www.tomknowles.tripod.com and let me know
what you think. You'll be one of the first!

Tom

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