Date   

Re: [HOsteam] Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Ken Clark
 

I suppose I could measure current draw, but I don't really care how much current
the motor takes so long as it performs well.

Reducing current draw is one of the primary reasons for remotoring. From my experience with several hundred can and coreless motors, cutting the current draw in half reduces the wheel dirt accumulation rate to only a quarter; the inverse is easier to understand double the current, clean the wheels four times as much.
I had a small logging mallet equipped with a can motor and flywheels that was used as a yard switcher at our club layout (along with several Athearn switchers). The Athearn switchers had to be cleaned twice a day during our annual six day club show; the mallet never needed cleaning during the show. When I sold the engine to a friend the Trainmaster was ready to strangle me, it was his favorite engine.

ken


Remotor Kit for Mantua Pacific

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

The Mantua parts dept just sent me their remotor kit. It is supposed to be a
"one size fits all" can motor upgrade for Mantua steamers. It contains a motor,
a cast motor mount, a worm and some wiring. No gear box. The instructions
boil down to "un screw the old motor, screw the new one in, solder on the power
leads. No machining, drilling, tapping or filing required."
I'm going to try it out soon. I though I'd make some performance measurements
"BEFORE" and "AFTER" to see if it's worth it. I was thinking of measuring
1. Slowest possible running speed (foot/sec, convert to smph with hand calc)
2. Top speed at 12 volts (same as above)
3. Starting Voltage (track voltage required to make the engine start from rest).
4. Amount of ballast added before wheels stop turning with engine stalled. (lbs)


I suppose I could measure current draw, but I don't really care how much current
the motor takes so long as it performs well.

I also got a set of spoked drivers and a Mantua parts catalog. The spokes
will make the Pacific look more B&Mish. The catalog contains exploded views and
assembly/disassembly instructions for just about every steamer Mantua ever made.




David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video


Re: [HOsteam] Digest Number 114

Leonello Pesce <pesce@...>
 

Ashley, you are right, how could I forget. When I was a kid, I did the
Airfix trains, that came in plastic bags. That was a lot of fun, but never
painted them, so they were all black plastic. And they were 1/76.

Cheers
Leo

From: "Ashley Rachel Pollard" <ashley@...>


OO is 1/76 scale or 4mm to the foot. I've rounded off the fraction to a
whole number, okay 1/76.2 for you pedants.


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi

Arved Grass <a_grass@...>
 

On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 20:23:45 -0700, "Tom Knowles" <ncstl@...> wrote:

I think you are safe with the cab-forward, though I don't have any protoype
deminsions to verify either the 85 footers, or the Esspee engine. My
calibrated HO scale eyes tell me it doesn't matter. They look about right to
me.
That's what I've thought, but you never know. I've never seen it mentioned, even in the reviews of the updated locos.

Then, on Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 00:36:46 -0700, "Leonello Pesce" <pesce@...> added:

Yes, all the American prototype production was made to scale, or almost.
The only thing wrong with the cab forward is the smaller wheels, to
compensate for the large flanges. When the current production came out,
Rivarossi lost an opportunity to right that, and kept the smaller wheels,
but now with smaller flanges (I think RP25). The spacing between the
wheels is to scale (AFAIK).
Yeah, I knew about the compromised wheels for the "Pizza Cutters" as well. Any ideas on closer to scale drivers for these beasts? I've only got one of the older models, but eventually, I'd like a couple more of the newer ones. Compared to the way plastic diesel prices are going, mail order cab-forwards are looking cheap again. Might be best to buy some before Rivarossi decides they can up the price because the market can bear it :-(.

Ah well, have a great weekend folks (or, what's left of it for you, Nelson :-) )!

- Arved
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi

Leonello Pesce <pesce@...>
 

Yes, all the American prototype production was made to scale, or almost.
The only thing wrong with the cab forward is the smaller wheels, to
compensate for the large flanges. When the current production came out,
Rivarossi lost an opportunity to right that, and kept the smaller wheels,
but now with smaller flanges (I think RP25). The spacing between the
wheels is to scale (AFAIK).

It was only for the rest that Rivarossi went wild with the scale and
proportions.

Cheers
Leo


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi

Tom Knowles <ncstl@...>
 

I think you are safe with the cab-forward, though I don't have any protoype
deminsions to verify either the 85 footers, or the Esspee engine. My
calibrated HO scale eyes tell me it doesn't matter. They look about right to
me.

Tom Knowles


Re: [HOsteam] Digest Number 114

Ashley Rachel Pollard <ashley@...>
 

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:22:05 -0700
From: "Leonello Pesce" <pesce@...>
Subject: Re: Rivarossi 4-4-2

No, in the 50's Rivarossi made most if not all equipment to OO scale,
which is not 1/87. I am not sure if OO is 1/72, but Rivarossi made most
of their stuff at 1/80 (roughly).
OO is 1/76 scale or 4mm to the foot. I've rounded off the fraction to a
whole number, okay 1/76.2 for you pedants.

--
Ashley Rachel Pollard
Ashley@...
Modelling Santa Rosa in the last millennium sometime this century...


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi

Nelson Kennedy <nelsonk@...>
 

I think we are OK, Arved, but I need to get out my plans and check!

My understanding is that it was the European outline models that were made
to a compromise scale but I'm willing to be corrected. I have wondered why
the RR heavyweights are bigger than the Bachmann ones. I have not found
definitive answers on that one (e.g. from PLANS).


Nelson Kennedy
Christchurch, New Zealand
Ferrymead Trams, NZR 0 gauge and some Espee H0 at:
http://downunder.railfan.net
Products suitable for 1:32 models are at http://ninemill.railfan.net

----- Original Message -----
From: Arved Grass <a_grass@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi


On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:22:05 -0700, "Leonello Pesce" <pesce@...>
wrote:

No, in the 50's Rivarossi made most if not all equipment to OO scale,
which is not 1/87. I am not sure if OO is 1/72, but Rivarossi made most
of their stuff at 1/80 (roughly).
Tell me this doesn't include the cab forward. Please tell me it doesn't.
Lie to me if you have to. No, wait, OK, don't lie, let me down gently,
OK?

- Arved
Modeling the Southern Pacific, from AC-4s to AC4400CWs
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi

Arved Grass <a_grass@...>
 

On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:22:05 -0700, "Leonello Pesce" <pesce@...> wrote:

No, in the 50's Rivarossi made most if not all equipment to OO scale,
which is not 1/87. I am not sure if OO is 1/72, but Rivarossi made most
of their stuff at 1/80 (roughly).
Tell me this doesn't include the cab forward. Please tell me it doesn't. Lie to me if you have to. No, wait, OK, don't lie, let me down gently, OK?

- Arved
Modeling the Southern Pacific, from AC-4s to AC4400CWs
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


Re: [HOsteam] Re: RE: Re: [HOsteam Spoked drivers]

ncstl@...
 

HOsteam@... wrote:
Where did you get the works to make the chuff sound?
Don Lewis....

Don,I work as an electronics repairman, so cobbled together a ckt. with sound generator, amplifier, bridge rectifier ICs and a couple of caps. it's all mounted on one of those long/skinny IC sockets and wrapped in tape. The pickup is just a switch (a piece of .020" brass wire)that rubs on the back of one driver. There are semi-circles of epoxy "in the way" 4 times per rev. that break the ground. Another wire rubs the opposite wheel to counter-balance the force. Both wires are soldered to a piece of ckt. bd. that is held on by one of the bottom frame retainer screws. The volume is dependant on track voltage, so gets louder as the engine works harder. Total cost, mebbe 10 bucks.
All the circuitry and speaker are mounted in the tender, and the sound is "interesting", but not real good...too tinny because of the 1" speakers I have to use in HO scale. I even use specially shaped film cannisters, cut down, to "help" the sound but it needs more help than that! Also,As it turns out the can motors in my steamers are so good they'll start the loco moving (running light)before there's any volume. My next version will fix this.. I'll tell you though that the effect is fun, and looks/sounds good on video tape! Double-headers are a blast (no pun intended). The best part is you don't have to always be staring at your engine to know what it's doing and where it is!

Tom

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] Rivarossi 4-4-2

Leonello Pesce <pesce@...>
 

No, in the 50's Rivarossi made most if not all equipment to OO scale,
which is not 1/87. I am not sure if OO is 1/72, but Rivarossi made most
of their stuff at 1/80 (roughly).

Cheers
Leo

From: "Thomas Beutel" <fan2472@...>


Back in the 1950's, Rivarossi produced a Southern Pacific style 4-4-2.
Does
anyone know what class it was supposed to represent? I'm guessing an A-6,
but the model is about 20% larger. I guess they made it bigger to
accommodate the motor?

Thanks!
Thomas


Rivarossi 4-4-2

Thomas Beutel <fan2472@...>
 

Back in the 1950's, Rivarossi produced a Southern Pacific style 4-4-2. Does
anyone know what class it was supposed to represent? I'm guessing an A-6,
but the model is about 20% larger. I guess they made it bigger to
accommodate the motor?

Thanks!
Thomas


Re: [HOsteam] Re: RE: Re: [HOsteam Spoked drivers]

DLewis0163@...
 

Where did you get the works to make the chuff sound?
Don Lewis


Re: [HOsteam] Re: RE: Re: [HOsteam Spoked drivers]

Nelson Kennedy <nelsonk@...>
 

From: <ncstl@...>


Your project sounds very nice, I've always liked the sloped front cab
sides..kinda gives 'em that "racey" look. Maybe we can post some pix of our
work? Does this list permit that?

In brief, No! Earlier in the life of this group I raised the question of
allowing email attachments. The overwhelming consensus then was that
attachments should not be permitted but rather that files that might
otherwise be attached be placed in the files area so that members could
choose whether or not to access them.

That position seems to give the best of both worlds. The chance to share
files with one another and the right to choose whether or not to receive
them.

If any members are unaware of the procedure for uploading files go to
http://Egroups.com then click on 'My Groups' and choose H0steam and follow
the instructions for dealing with files. Having uploaded a file, if you
then view it and copy and paste the resulting URL to the list in a message
you will make it easy for others to view your file.


Nelson Kennedy (list 'owner')
Christchurch, New Zealand
Ferrymead Trams, NZR 0 gauge and some Espee H0 at:
http://downunder.railfan.net
Products suitable for 1:32 models are at http://ninemill.railfan.net


Re: [HOsteam Spoked drivers]

ncstl@...
 

HOsteam@... wrote:
Tom,
Where did you go to get the Mantua spoked wheels? And the gearbox?
David,
Mantua sells direct. Their parts dept is kinda odd having weird hours. I usually just fax to them and they get to it at their convienence.They have, however never messed up an order. I use their catalog for P/N's. Prices are reasonable and they take plastic. Watch for my posts later, I'll look up their number and you can call for a catalog.

The power drive is an excellent upgrade, and they offer it as a kit, that includes a motor. I happen to have a ton of can motors, and use the A-line flywheels designed for Athearn Switchers (tapered) save the money and not buy their motor. I just buy the parts for the gearbox. This mounts the motor way back in the firebox out of sight and leaves room for a non-flexible, but telescoping, coupling I make up with square brass tubing and 2mm shafting. All the joints are made with the typical rubber hose except the telescope, of course. I hide the sides of the gearbox with a spring detail made by filing a cal-scale spring hanger real thin and glueing it on over the driver. This complements the same detail over the other drivers. All this frees up the space normally occupied by the old motor, so adding weight is a snap, though I haven't. They seem to pull just fine for my needs w/o it so far. I hide the back of the motor with a backhead detail glued into the cab.
No real super detail here, but they look "right". I use my engines a lot and carry them back and forth to our club in Greensboro, NC. so they have to be sturdy, Too much detail makes a delicate work-horse,I'ld rather run and build than "fix". I have a pair of identical Mikes # 672 and 673 that also have chuff sound added, synchronized to the drivers, 4 exhausts per rev, so they are VERY popular at club.

Your project sounds very nice, I've always liked the sloped front cab sides..kinda gives 'em that "racey" look. Maybe we can post some pix of our work? Does this list permit that? Currently we are out of the Pix biz as our computer has suffered a lightnening event, and all we can get to work is the Eudora and internet emails right now. A new mother board and hard drive are on order.

Good luck
Tom Knowles, a steam guy in a diesel world


Re: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Tom,
Where did you go to get the Mantua spoked wheels? And the gearbox?

I'd like to make a B&M P4 Pacific. B&M never got into Boxpox drivers, they
went with spoked drivers right to the end. The P4's also had a distinctive cab
with a rakish slope to the front rather than the vertical front cab more
commonly seen.
Using the stock drive (with a drop of two of oil) this locomotive could haul 9
cars up the rather steep (2% or worse) grades at the club. Low speed
performance is OK, although not quite as good as a Bachmann Spectrum
Consolidation. Hill climbing performance is limited by wheel spin. I'm looking
at adding as much weight as possible. There is room in the firebox, behind the
motor to take maybe 4-6 ounces.
The stock drive on this engine is just an open frame motor, alnico magnets,
not very large, with a plastic worm pressed onto the motor shaft. Gear mesh is
set by shimming the motor just right. This one seems to be just about right.
There is room for a can motor mounted farther back, driving a gear box thru a
shaft with U-joints. If I go this way, then I don't want to fill the firebox up
with lead, it will get in the way of the motor.

David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: ncstl@...[SMTP:ncstl@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Saturday, 29 July, 2000 10:14 AM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: Re: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua


HOsteam@... wrote:
I did a large makeover job on a Mantua Mikado 2 years ago
along the same lines as you are thinking about.

I didn't change the drivers, but you can likely source those
from Bowser......etc...etc...

This is my first post on this list, and this subject caught my attention. I
have several extensively modified Mantua/Tyco locos that are good looking and
fine runners. I do not use Bowser wheels except in scratch-built or Bowser
frames but this may be a good idea. Mantua offers Spoked wheelsets for the
Pacific, which drop right in. In mine, all drivers are flanged by pulling the
flanged wheels and re-installing them on the geared axle. The look and
traction is greatly improved. I do this on all.. the Big Six,(one geared
driver from an 0-4-0 drops in) the ten-wheeler (with wheels from a "General")
the Pacific and the Mikado. One must provide a little more side-play in the
driver's axle bearings in order to negotiate curves (24" min on my layout),
but the effect is worth the trouble.

On the pacific and mike, I use their up-dated "power drive" gearboxes, and can
motors with flywheels. It is astonishing how well they run. The power drive
boxes have been retrofitted to even some of the oldest engines I have, with
only having to tap out completely one mounting hole in the frame.. tap it out
from the bottom so the threads will be continuous through to the top. I use
the pacific boilers on the mikes, and USRA cabs cut from junk Rivarossi
engines, semi-vandy tenders from Bachmann, Bowser Commonwealth 6-wheel tender
trucks with Cal-Scale wheels, re-wheel the trailing truck with a 45" spoked
wheelset from PIA, and a 36' set for the pilot truck.(33" for the pacific)

I get a big kick out of the reaction from some of the old heads who drop by
for a visit when they see these things... it's stuff they never saw before,
detailed up in a family resemblance to all the other steamers I have. Many
mistake them for custom brass! Then I start 'em off at 2 MPH, which raises
some eye-brows and silently float along at 10 MPH in the yard. Total cost ?
Mebbe $150 INCLUDING the loco which either came from Ebay or swap meets.. 'ya
can't beat that.

Tom



Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua Pacific

Starr, David <david.starr@...>
 

Chris,
I have started looking around for castings. I found a pair of Cal Scale air
compressors which ought to mount on the front deck under the ladders. I'm
looking for a bell which will mount on the smoke box front.
I know what you mean about drilling zamac. I drilled and tapped the rear of
the frame 4-40 last night to secure the tender drawbar. The drill press had no
trouble doing the #43 hole, but I got the tap stuck and nearly broke it off in
the hole. Fortunately some Labelle oil and a gentle rocking back & forth got
the tap out intact.
I have had good luck with this finishing schedule for Zamac.
1. Degrease by washing with laundry detergent & water. Or run the casting thru
a cycle of the dishwasher.
2. Pickle the Zamac in a mild acid. I use supermarket vinegar. It etches the
casting to give a little tooth for the paint to grab, and the acid cuts the
alkali in the detergent.
3. Rinse in water. Get the acid & soap residue off. Don't touch the zamac with
your bare hands after this point.
4. Dry very well. Overnight, or gentle heat but paint won't stick to the one
drop of water that lurks in a dark corner.
5. Rustoleum light gray auto primer for a first coat. Being a primer it sticks
better to zamac than just paint will and it offers a good surface for the finish
coat.
6. I like a finish coat of dark gray rather than real engine black. You can see
more detail, and it looks black under typical basement lights, especially
fluorescent.


David J. Starr
Senior Systems Video Engineer
Computer Products Division
781 937 1518
HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video

----------
From: Chris Shinn[SMTP:cnshinn@...]
Reply To: HOsteam@...
Sent: Friday, 28 July, 2000 7:40 PM
To: HOsteam@...
Subject: Re: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua Pacific

I did a large makeover job on a Mantua Mikado 2 years ago
along the same lines as you are thinking about.

I didn't change the drivers, but you can likely source those
from Bowser.

Cut off all the details that you can, like the reverser, air tanks,
compressor, etc and replace them with Cal-Scale or
Precision Scale castings. The individual pieces are cheap
(but the $$ will add up). Get some GOOD bits and a good
pinvise, as you be drilling a lot of zamac (the boiler material).
Cheap bits WILL break. A dremel tool for some of the larger
holes is advisable (like those needed for mounting the Elesco
bundle).

CA glue will hold all the parts and associated plumbing quite
well.

If you do a good job the loco will look as good as or better that
a brass loco at a fraction of the cost.

The only problem I had was with paint. I didn't bake the finish
because I was worried if the CA would still adhere. Does anyone
have any experience with this? The unbaked paint chips off the
zamac rather easily.

Chris Shinn
Winnipeg, Canada
Member, Renegade HO Modular Club
< http://members.xoom.com/renegade_MRC >
"If it ain't steam, it's a powered boxcar"


----- Original Message -----
From: Starr, David <david.starr@...>
To: <HOsteam@...>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 1:31 PM
Subject: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua Pacific


|
| > I just acquired one of these units, used, in running order, but
needing a
| > bit of detailing work. This one never got to the paint shop, needs some
| > ballast and maybe some details. I'd like to rework it a bit to give it
a
| > Boston&Maine flavor. It comes with Boxpox drivers, and I seem to
remember the
| > B&M used mostly spoked drivers. It could use an air pump and an Elasco
| > feedwater heater.
| > Any suggestions as to availability of parts that might fit would be
welcome.
| >
| >
| > David J. Starr
| > Senior Systems Video Engineer
| > Computer Products Division
| > 781 937 1518
| > HTTP://www.analog.com/industry/video
| >
|
| Keeping the memory of steam alive!
|


Keeping the memory of steam alive!


Re: [HOsteam] FW: Mantua Pacific

DLewis0163@...
 

Thanks again for a really useful posting. I'm copying and filing these for
future use.
Don Lewis MD FACS
Builder of Steam Locos from 1 1/2' scale to HO
P.S
Feel free to contact me directly.


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua

ncstl@...
 

Yes, Arvid, I am aware of the Mantua 10-wheeler's prototype, but did not know the center one was blind. My particular model , as are all of the rest, are modified for family resemblance to Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis prototypes. This is the RR I grew up on and model the transistion era. My #3 is a representation of a loco they kept for special occasions, numbered 10-IC (a pun)on the RR, but since the number plate on the front says "3", I kept it numbered that way. It actually looks pretty good painted black with gold lettering and striping.
Thanks for the info.
Tom


Re: [HOsteam] Mantua

Arved Grass <a_grass@...>
 

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:14:04 -0400, ncstl@... wrote:
This is my first post on this list, and this subject caught my attention. I have several extensively modified Mantua/Tyco locos that are good looking and fine runners. I do not use Bowser wheels except in scratch-built or Bowser frames but this may be a good idea. Mantua offers Spoked wheelsets for the Pacific, which drop right in. In mine, all drivers are flanged by pulling the flanged wheels and re-installing them on the geared axle. The look and traction is greatly improved. I do this on all.. the Big Six,(one geared driver from an 0-4-0 drops in) the ten-wheeler (with wheels from a "General") the Pacific and the Mikado. One must provide a little more side-play in the driver's axle bearings in order to negotiate curves (24" min on my layout), but the effect is worth the trouble.
The Ten-Wheeler is a model of Roger's (sp?) built Sierra Railroad #3. I hate to tell you this, but the blind driver is prototypical for that engine :-).

All the best,
- Arved
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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