locked orphaned group


Kevin Groenke
 

hello GIO owners!

A group I am a member of but not an owner of seems to have lost the two owners that current members are aware of.
https://groups.io/g/Unimat

Emails to Unimat+owner@groups.io are going unanswered and new member contributions are not getting moderated.

I have looked for resolutions for such abandoned groups but have not found any process for addressing this matter.

Any help is greatly appreciated as there is a bunch of great information archived in the group and many members willing to assume administrative responsibilities.

best regards
-k.groenke


 

Kevin,

I have looked for resolutions for such abandoned groups but have not
found any process for addressing this matter.
There is as yet no mechanism to address this problem.

As usual, the best advice arrives too late: it is the group owners' responsibility to ensure that there are additional owners, minimizing the possibility of having all of them become unable to run the group simultaneously.

Any help is greatly appreciated as there is a bunch of great
information archived in the group and many members willing to assume
administrative responsibilities.
About your only option in this case is to write to support@groups.io seeking an intervention. It is a long shot, but at least one GMF member has reported success with this route.

Shal


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Harry Hodges
 

Ah, the Yahoo groups dilemma returns.  There a petition process was needed to nominate a new leader who never really had 'ownership'.  Apparently in some social circles that relates to status.  Perhaps another process needs invention that requires less effort from support staff.  Worth development isn't it?


Chris Jones
 

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 08:46 PM, Harry Hodges wrote:
Perhaps another process needs invention that requires less effort from support staff.
That wheel already exists and there is no need to develop another one; see Shal's point above: ...it is the group owners' responsibility to ensure that there are additional owners, minimizing the possibility of having all of them become unable to run the group simultaneously. Of course it doesn't solve the problem if a sole owner is "status concious" and won't countenance having others as equals.

Chris


 

Beyond Chris' comments, there is always the ultimate resolution of going to support. It's not simple and some may think that's onerous. But perhaps it *should* be difficult. Mark is a very fair but cautious person. He has the ultimate authority for groups.io, and he should have the flexibility of a judge to ascertain facts and determine what is best for an individual group while still protecting the parties involved. If he assigns the task to someone on the support team, that's his business.

We, as owners and members, have the obligation to maintain a line of succession for our individual groups, and to take care of them as best we can. Doing this keeps the burden off of support so they can focus on the more important aspects.

That's my 2¢ worth.

Dano
_____________________________

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 08:46 PM, Harry Hodges wrote:

Perhaps another process needs invention that requires less effort from support staff.

That wheel already exists and there is no need to develop another one; see Shal's point above: ...it is the group owners' responsibility to ensure that there are additional owners, minimizing the possibility of having all of them become unable to run the group simultaneously. Of course it doesn't solve the problem if a sole owner is "status concious" and won't countenance having others as equals.

Chris


txercoupemuseum.org
 

This subject comes back again and again because it’s an ongoing problem all too many try to deny. I would paraphrase Dano’s oversimplification that "We, as group owner(s), bear the ongoing obligation to preserve the group and its expressed purpose and function as best we can.”

But I’m old enough to remember a newscaster by the name of Paul Harvey whose integrity was always beyond question. He was the one who took pride in providing the “rest of the story” (i.e things unsaid or sometimes covered up. In that context, I wholeheartedly support Harry Hodges’ opinion that "Perhaps another process needs invention that requires less effort from support staff.”

Each "Owner” that brings THEIR group to Groups.io brings with them their continuing “status within their group”. That’s fact, NOT ego.

The sole “issue” here is also a fact...that the primary existing option to avoid a group inadvertently becoming “orphaned” by unforeseen circumstance is to elevate OTHER GROUP MEMBERS to EQUAL and INSTANT Ownership with immediate unrestrained power to DEMOTE any “Owner”.

This Owner judges the potential for abuse of unnecessary and unregulated power at the very top level a group's administrators inappropriate and unnecessary in the extreme. It is further illogical in the extreme for any functioning Owner willing to continue “in office" to risk his/her leadership position just because none of us know when we may become disinterested, incapacitated or die.

I run a highly technical group whose primary educational function is sifting opinions and experience for facts. Over time, much confusion has been reduced to well documented truths, benefitting all.

In that process the egos we should all leave “at the door” abrade and occasionally words can become heated. Debate (an exchange of knowledge) can slip into argument (an exchange of ignorance). It takes a delicate hand on the reins best encourage and preserve such a collegiate “culture”. Only a few “qualified” by knowledge and/or experience have those interpersonal skills.

I suggest a simple and clear “new” option. Let each group Owner designate one successor to become the new Owner only upon the demise, incapacitation or resignation of the present owner. That’s not unreasonable. It’s not even difficult. We just need agreed definitions as appropriate, and an appropriate “Form of Accession” filled out, signed, and provided to Groups.io.

What say you?

WRB

On Nov 4, 2021, at 7:04 PM, D R Stinson <dano@mt.net> wrote:

Beyond Chris' comments, there is always the ultimate resolution of going to support. It's not simple and some may think that's onerous. But perhaps it *should* be difficult. Mark is a very fair but cautious person. He has the ultimate authority for groups.io, and he should have the flexibility of a judge to ascertain facts and determine what is best for an individual group while still protecting the parties involved. If he assigns the task to someone on the support team, that's his business.

We, as owners and members, have the obligation to maintain a line of succession for our individual groups, and to take care of them as best we can. Doing this keeps the burden off of support so they can focus on the more important aspects.

That's my 2¢ worth.

Dano
_____________________________

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 08:46 PM, Harry Hodges wrote:

Perhaps another process needs invention that requires less effort from support staff.

That wheel already exists and there is no need to develop another one; see Shal's point above: ...it is the group owners' responsibility to ensure that there are additional owners, minimizing the possibility of having all of them become unable to run the group simultaneously. Of course it doesn't solve the problem if a sole owner is "status concious" and won't countenance having others as equals.

Chris


Andy Wedge
 

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 05:27 AM, Kevin Groenke wrote:
hello GIO owners!
Just for clarity, nobody from Groups.io monitors this group. This is a peer-to-peer support group of other group owners that freely offer their knowledge and expertise which has been built up over time.

Regards
Andy 


Andy Wedge
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:54 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
I suggest a simple and clear “new” option. Let each group Owner designate one successor to become the new Owner only upon the demise, incapacitation or resignation of the present owner. That’s not unreasonable. It’s not even difficult. We just need agreed definitions as appropriate, and an appropriate “Form of Accession” filled out, signed, and provided to Groups.io.

What say you?
And in the cases where that nominated successor is not able to be contacted for whatever reason, (perhaps they died beforehand and the nominated successor details were not updated) we end up in the same boat.  Groups.io already provides a mechanism to ensure continuation of a group and that is to have at least two co-owners. Just stick to that and avoid the need to contact Groups.io support altogether.

Andy


Bruce Bowman
 

This is an "ongoing problem" for no other reason than Owners fail to use the tools already available to them. Why create another tool for them to not use?

Creating another level of "almost an Owner" fails to solve the problem and just makes everything more complicated. Sooner of later you have to identify someone you trust. If you can't do that, it's turtles all the way down.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down 

Regards,
Bruce


Check out the groups.io Help Center and groups.io Owners Manual


Duane
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 05:54 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
the primary existing option to avoid a group inadvertently becoming “orphaned” by unforeseen circumstance is to elevate OTHER GROUP MEMBERS to EQUAL and INSTANT Ownership with immediate unrestrained power to DEMOTE any “Owner”.
While that's the only way to continue a group totally uninterrupted, there is another option to at least continue the group.  You can make someone a moderator with all permissions enabled.  As far as I can tell, there are only 3 things they can't do - demote the owner, promote someone to owner, or delete the group.  While checking into this, I discovered a #bug that I'll report on beta.

In my case, the biggest obstacle is finding anyone that's interested in even being a moderator, let alone an owner.  I had one person as an "emergency backup", but he's decided to go on to other things and has politely bowed out, so now I'm in the same boat as many others.

Duane
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Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.


 

I agree with Duane, that a group can continue without problems indefinitely with a moderator with all authorities. Keep in mind those authorities include adding new moderators with all authorities, so the job can be self-perpetuating. But it does require finding someone interested enough to be a moderator.

FB seems to have hurt groups.io, and I am saddened that so much of that information will be lost forever into their unsearchable message void. It seems that people are not as concerned today with the perpetuation of knowledge as they once were, and prefer the fame of FB. Groups has been the most reliable repository of information over the long term as long as owners were aware of the overall situation.

Dano
_________________

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 05:54 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:

the primary existing option to avoid a group inadvertently becoming “orphaned” by unforeseen circumstance is to elevate OTHER GROUP MEMBERS to EQUAL and INSTANT Ownership with immediate unrestrained power to DEMOTE any “Owner”.
While that's the only way to continue a group totally uninterrupted, there is another option to at least continue the group. You can make someone a moderator with all permissions enabled. As far as I can tell, there are only 3 things they can't do - demote the owner, promote someone to owner, or delete the group. While checking into this, I discovered a #bug that I'll report on beta.

In my case, the biggest obstacle is finding anyone that's interested in even being a moderator, let alone an owner. I had one person as an "emergency backup", but he's decided to go on to other things and has politely bowed out, so now I'm in the same boat as many others.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.


putnam morgan
 

The only thing that may be a problem in an orphaned group is that someone (I think I recall reading that it can only be one person) needs to be able to pay IO whatever the annual charges might be. This is not for any groups that are not charged.

I fully agree that the loss over time of the wealth of knowledge contained in the messages is regrettable, but short of copying the message, what else can be done?   For our little group, I find that there is considerable overlap between the memberships of our IO group and two different FB groups, all of which have same stated goal (support for people with same rare disease). FYI, we are approaching 2 GB of files plus the messages, all of which are added to, accessed, and searched on a regular basis.

Put

Putnam Morgan



On Friday, November 5, 2021, 10:32:21 AM EDT, D R Stinson <dano@...> wrote:


I agree with Duane, that a group can continue without problems indefinitely with a moderator with all authorities. Keep in mind those authorities include adding new moderators with all authorities, so the job can be self-perpetuating. But it does require finding someone interested enough to be a moderator.

FB seems to have hurt groups.io, and I am saddened that so much of that information will be lost forever into their unsearchable message void. It seems that people are not as concerned today with the perpetuation of knowledge as they once were, and prefer the fame of FB. Groups has been the most reliable repository of information over the long term as long as owners were aware of the overall situation.

Dano
_________________

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 05:54 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:

>the primary existing option to avoid a group inadvertently becoming “orphaned” by unforeseen circumstance is to elevate OTHER GROUP MEMBERS to EQUAL and INSTANT Ownership with immediate unrestrained power to DEMOTE any “Owner”.
>

While that's the only way to continue a group totally uninterrupted, there is another option to at least continue the group.  You can make someone a moderator with all permissions enabled.  As far as I can tell, there are only 3 things they can't do - demote the owner, promote someone to owner, or delete the group.  While checking into this, I discovered a #bug that I'll report on beta.

In my case, the biggest obstacle is finding anyone that's interested in even being a moderator, let alone an owner.  I had one person as an "emergency backup", but he's decided to go on to other things and has politely bowed out, so now I'm in the same boat as many others.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.






Chris Jones
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:54 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Let each group Owner designate one successor to become the new Owner only upon the demise, incapacitation or resignation of the present owner. That’s not unreasonable. It’s not even difficult.
Not to set up, no. But to implement, not so easy. While the resignation of an owner is very easy to identify, neither demise or incapacitation is a known quantity unless someone known (not just suspected or believed) to be acting on behalf of a demised or incapacitated owner happens to report the fact. As time passes many groups accumulate "dead souls"; once active members but now silent, sometimes for years. Eventually their email addresses become "red bouncers" but even that cannot be taken as being certain of their passing. With the best will in the world I don't think this approach is guaranteed to work.

Bruce summed it nicely: This is an "ongoing problem" for no other reason than Owners fail to use the tools already available to them. Why create another tool for them to not use? Or one that may not work in practice as well it does might do in theory.

Chris


Duane
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:35 AM, putnam morgan wrote:
The only thing that may be a problem in an orphaned group is that someone (I think I recall reading that it can only be one person) needs to be able to pay IO whatever the annual charges might be.
That's not a problem as long as at least one mod has the Billing permission.  Even though someone else may be the current payor, anyone with Billing permission can assume the responsibility.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.


Duane
 

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:36 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
neither demise or incapacitation is a known quantity unless someone known (not just suspected or believed) to be acting on behalf of a demised or incapacitated owner happens to report the fact. ...  Eventually their email addresses become "red bouncers" but even that cannot be taken as being certain of their passing
I've been trying to keep up with the situation on the Unimat group (I have a personal reason for interest in that particular group.)  It seems at least one of the owners is still around, just very busy with life!  If there had been a succession process, the original owner may have been deposed before it was appropriate.  IMHO, another reason to NOT have one.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.


Michael Pavan
 

The "Orphaned Group" situation keeps coming up, because no realistic solution currently exists.
No automated "Owner Succession" mechanism exists.

There are good reasons why Groups.io is set up with an Owner role,
and many Groups find out it is a problem not to have an Owner.


However, it has been suggested that Groups don't really need an Owner, and therefore it is not really a problem.

I challenge any Owner who believes that Groups do not need an Owner, to relieve their Group from having any Owner.
- Created a free email address and promote it to Owner.
- Demote all their Group's previous Owner(s)
- Close the new free email address (of the only Owner) with that Email Provider.


Duane
 

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 02:46 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
many Groups find out it is a problem not to have an Owner
Again, having one or more moderators with all permissions would negate this situation (unless they want to delete the group.)  BTW, as I just posted on beta, a mod with all permissions CAN NOT remove the LAST owner.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.


Pete Cook
 

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 11:53 AM, Duane wrote:
having one or more moderators with all permissions would negate this situation
How would a moderator with all permissions be different than an owner?

Pete


Michael Pavan
 

On Nov 6, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Duane <txpigeon@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 02:46 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
many Groups find out it is a problem not to have an Owner
Again, having one or more moderators with all permissions would negate this situation (unless they want to delete the group.)

BTW, as I just posted on beta, a mod with all permissions CAN NOT remove the LAST owner.
True, but the LAST Owner can close their account (with their Email Provider) which would 'kill' the LAST Owner - orphaning the Group.

I have yet to see any Group Owner post here that they have 'orphaned' their Group(s) because there is no need to have an Owner...


Duane
 

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021 at 01:02 PM, Michael Pavan wrote:
True, but the LAST Owner can close their account (with their Email Provider) which would 'kill' the LAST Owner - orphaning the Group.
I think we're getting into extremely unlikely situations here.  If the last owner had any interest in keeping a group fully functional, I seriously doubt that they'd intentionally close/delete their email account.  I believe that like most group creation owners, they would have other owners or mods to carry on their groups, assuming they want them to continue.  Or, as Shal and I do, have more than one of our own email addresses as owner of a group.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.