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Honoring original Message-IDs in reflected messages


Stephano Cetola
 

I'm evaluating Groups.io as a possible platform for TianoCore:

https://www.tianocore.org/

One issue that we've come up with is in regards to message threading,
specifically how the Message-ID seems to be changed for some reflected
emails.

I believe the issue I'm seeing is discussed here:

https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/8420

If I select "I always want copies of my own emails" in my user
preferences, it does indeed send me messages, which is good. :)

However, as mentioned in the above thread, Groups.io seems to be
changing the Message-ID field. For example, if I send a message to the
list and CC another list member, then compare message IDs I see:

Message-ID from CC'd member: <SOME_HASH@EMAIL-DOMAIN>
Message-ID from reflected email: <SOME_HASH@groups.io>


This might be great for gmail users, but for those MUAs that actually
honor proper threading, this feature breaks threading.

Is there a way to stop groups.io from altering the Message-ID in
reflected emails?

Cheers,
Stephano


 

Stephano,
 
 
Is there a way to stop groups.io from altering the Message-ID in
reflected emails?
 
Groups.io normally passes the Message-ID unaltered. The exception is for users who have selected I always want copies of my own emails in their Account Preference.That feature was created as a work-around for Gmail users specifically, Gmail uses the Message-ID to "hide" the returned message from the user (because the ID already appears as "sent").

Only that user receives the replaced Message-ID, and only for messages where he/she was the original sender.

There is no group-wide way of controlling this. It is an account (not subscription) setting for each user.
 
Shal
 

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Stephano Cetola
 

Interesting. I think I understand.

What do you recommend for a workaround for those who like the feature
(I always want copies of my own emails) but whose MUA works correctly?

They *could* have their MUA copy the message to the proper thread
(directory), but that does not guarantee the massage was received and
processed by the list.

Thoughts? Perhaps a feature request?

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 10:50 AM Shal Farley <@Shal> wrote:

Stephano,



Is there a way to stop groups.io from altering the Message-ID in
reflected emails?

Groups.io normally passes the Message-ID unaltered. The exception is for users who have selected I always want copies of my own emails in their Account Preference.That feature was created as a work-around for Gmail users specifically, Gmail uses the Message-ID to "hide" the returned message from the user (because the ID already appears as "sent").

Only that user receives the replaced Message-ID, and only for messages where he/she was the original sender.

There is no group-wide way of controlling this. It is an account (not subscription) setting for each user.

Shal


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Stephano,


What do you recommend for a workaround for those who like the feature
(I always want copies of my own emails) but whose MUA works correctly?

I'm not the best person to ask, I tend not to use Thunderbird's thread view, and particularly not the Gmail web interface "Conversations" view. I'm happy just to have my messages land in the Inbox so that I can easily put them into my GMF folder (in Thunderbird's Local Folders) along with other people's messages.
Thoughts? Perhaps a feature request?

What would the feature be?

You can already turn off the Message-ID substitution, with the downside that Gmail will not place the returned message in your Inbox (IIRC it does show as a second copy in your Sent folder). Or you can leave it on, with the downside that your user interface might have wanted to use the Message-ID for threading. I don't see that there's anything else Groups.io can do for you.

Shal

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Stephano Cetola
 

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 3:04 PM Shal Farley <@Shal> wrote:

What would the feature be?

You can already turn off the Message-ID substitution, with the downside that Gmail will not place the returned message in your Inbox (IIRC it does show as a second copy in your Sent folder). Or you can leave it on, with the downside that your user interface might have wanted to use the Message-ID for threading. I don't see that there's anything else Groups.io can do for you.
Hmm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the issue. Is there a way to turn
off the Message-ID substitution, but still have Groups.io send *all*
emails to my account (including those sent by me)?

Cheers,
Stephano


 

Stephano,


Hmm, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the issue. Is there a way to turn
off the Message-ID substitution, but still have Groups.io send *all*
emails to my account (including those sent by me)?

It's a common misunderstanding.

Groups.io never fails to send your own emailed posts back to your email. Assuming of course that your subscription is set up to receive all messages by email.

The issue is that Gmail customarily "hides" them (puts them into your Sent folder, not your Inbox). So most Gmail users' impression (including those using a POP or IMAP client) is that Groups.io isn't returning their messages - unless the Message-ID substitution option (I always want copies of my own emails) in their Account Preferences is checked.
Shal


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Stephano Cetola
 

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 4:22 PM Shal Farley <@Shal> wrote:
It's a common misunderstanding.

Groups.io never fails to send your own emailed posts back to your email. Assuming of course that your subscription is set up to receive all messages by email.

The issue is that Gmail customarily "hides" them (puts them into your Sent folder, not your Inbox). So most Gmail users' impression (including those using a POP or IMAP client) is that Groups.io isn't returning their messages - unless the Message-ID substitution option (I always want copies of my own emails) in their Account Preferences is checked.
Ah, perfect! Thank you for your help in understanding this matter.

I'll have that user uncheck their "I always want copies of my own
emails" so that they don't see this issue and return to testing.

Kind regards,
Stephano


Jim Higgins
 

Received from Shal Farley at 3/7/2019 11:00 PM UTC:

You can already turn off the Message-ID substitution, with the downside that Gmail will not place the returned message in your Inbox (IIRC it does show as a second copy in your Sent folder). Or you can leave it on, with the downside that your user interface might have wanted to use the Message-ID for threading. I don't see that there's anything else Groups.io can do for you.

Yes!

I think it's time for Gmail users to give Groups.io a break and start asking Gmail to provide them with an option - or a more visible option that doesn't require asking GMF where to find it - that completely bypasses this nonsense that doesn't permit them to receive copies of their own messages sent from Gmail without unwanted side effects.

The problem is 100% with Gmail, not Groups.io. Like Microsoft, Google is the 500 lb gorilla who sleeps wherever the heck he wants to. If I had a gorilla wanting to sleep where I slept, I'd sleep elsewhere. There are less troublesome places than Gmail to use as an email provider.

Jim H


KWKloeber
 

You can already turn off the Message-ID substitution, with the downside that Gmail will not place the returned message in your Inbox (IIRC it does show as a second copy in your Sent folder). Or you can leave it on, with the downside that your user interface might have wanted to use the Message-ID for threading. I don't see that there's anything else Groups.iocan do for you.


Shal

I don’t (yet) use it, but Is that because gmail has an option to file replies with the original message?  

I use a dinosaur 2003 Outlook and have that option turned on. 

Ken


 

Ken


I don’t (yet) use it, but Is that because gmail has an option to file replies with the original message?  

My experience is that this behavior is independent of having Conversation Mode turned on or off in the Gmail web interface. In fact it applies even if you are reading via a POP or IMAP client application.

That said, it likely is a result of the same mindset that created Conversation Mode. An attempt to automatically organize messages according to someone's idea of how things should be. It is likely also related in mindset to the bizarre way that Gmail handles POP clients (they had a better idea).
I use a dinosaur 2003 Outlook and have that option turned on. 

Outlook? Well, there's no accounting for taste.  ;-)
Shal


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