Topics

Changing Owner to Administrator


TeresaQ
 

Hi, 

Our group is a 12 Step/Tradition program group. I realize Yahoo had "owners" while other forums tend to have "administrators". For any of us in the group to feel a need to be owner goes against our Traditions of equality. Trying to be Tradition minded on the internet hierarchy format is close to impossible, I realize. I don't know how much could be changed....

Yet, is it possible to change from "owner" to "administrator"? That would be closer to "Chair", "Secretary" that we are accustomed to. 

Thanks for listening. Teresa Q


Frances
 

Yet, is it possible to change from "owner" to "administrator"? That would be closer to "Chair", "Secretary" that we are accustomed to.

What powers / permissions do you want the administrator to have?

Groups.io has owners, moderators, and members.
You can select the permissions for moderators - they don’t all have to have the same. 


Frances


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1.  No need to get hung up in 'titles'.

2.  Traditions of Equality are fine, but you must recognize what a 'Group' consists of.

3.  In a Group setting there are three types of 'Members': Owner(s), Moderator(s), and Members.

4.  You can compare this to a Sports Team which has: Captain, Referee and Player(s).

5.  Each member is playing a Role: Owner - Manager, Moderator - Administrator, and Member - Member.

6.  Each member has Responsibility: Owner - Establish and Manage Group, Moderator - Help Owner in Managing, and Member - Participate.

7.  All member types have an Accountability: Assure that the Group Functions.

8.  If you are a Player in a game as a team member, you have to abide by the rules of the game, pay attention to what the Captain is saying, and the Referee has the final word.

9.  In a group setting Owner, Moderators, and Members are playing the role of Captain, Referee and Player respectively.

10.  Remember that Owner(s) can blow up (delete) a Group while Moderators and Members can not blow up a Group.

11.  You need Owner(s) who can make all necessary changes suited to the Group's needs.

12.  You can not allow every member to have administrative privileges unless you do not mind messing up the group.

Mahendra Bakshi.


Peter Cook
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:08 AM, Frances wrote:
What powers / permissions do you want the administrator to have?
I believe she's referring to changing the terminology, not adding another level of authority.


 

TeresaQ,

>>> I realize Yahoo had "owners" while other forums tend to have "administrators"

It's the same thing really; a group Owner, or a group Moderator, are both group Administrators IT-wise as far as group management is concerned; it's jsut that the Owner is the ultimate group administrator (of any type) and has the ultimate group management authority.

And those are group IT structure/functionality titles, they have nothing to do with the group's purpose/organizational structure titles, so don't conflate the two, they don't have to be directly co-related to the organization's "board" functionality, they don't even have to be related at all; I mean, you can have a group owner who is just that, the group owner/admin, and still be nothing but a regular "member" as far as the "board" is concerned; they don't even have to be an "active" member/participant really;  I own and admin (along with other mods) 3 groups, and also I'm the (initial) owner on another group, on which there is another owner and a couple of mods, and I don't partake in the actual group discussions really (unless it is group-admin-related).  I'm just one of the owners because the group didn't have IT-knowledgeable folks back then and needed help to move from Yahoo, so I handled the group creation, migration. and setup on GIO, then just sit back and let htem run with it and only step in if needed.

Also keep in mind that as far as groups.io is concerned, while you can change an Owner to a Moderator, you still HAVE to have at least one group owner, so even if you wanted to "eliminate" that title from the group owner's account you wouldn't be able to.

Cheers,
Christos


Frances
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:06 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
I believe she's referring to changing the terminology, not adding another level of authority.

 

The "owner" and "moderator" terminology is just about hidden from the members at large.
If "directory" is enabled, it doesn't show there.
Messages a moderator sends aren't flagged with "moderator".
The owner and moderators' names aren't on the homepage of the group.

Frances
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Duane
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:05 AM, Mahendra Bakshi wrote:
8.  If you are a Player in a game as a team member, you have to abide by the rules of the game, pay attention to what the Captain is saying, and the Referee has the final word.

9.  In a group setting Owner, Moderators, and Members are playing the role of Captain, Referee and Player respectively.
Using your example, the Owner would be the Referee since they have final say on how the group operates.

Duane
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Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 03:05 PM, Mahendra Bakshi wrote:
No need to get hung up in 'titles'.
I have been thinking about a response to the query for several hours. The line I have quoted above is simply the perhaps most relevant part of Mahendra Bakshi's post, almost all of which I agree with entirely.

I think the first point I would make is that if you are comfortable with the titles of Chair and Secretary then there is no obvious reason why you should object to Owner. A hierarchy of some sort is implicit in Chair and Secretary, in fact more so IMHO than is implicit in the terms Owner and Moderator.

I agree that some confusion is just about possible where an on - line group (such as the one we are using at the moment, i.e. GMF) has no physical existence compared to a "group of people" that does have a physical existence; they have meetings; they take minutes; they elect a Chair (etc) and so on. There is no need for conflict between an on - line Group Owner and the Officer and Committee of a physical organisation; plenty of groups have "owners" who run a group on behalf of the Officers and Committee without any conflict arising. Ownership relates to getting a group established with the correct settings, dealing with queries about "how  to" for the (on - line) group and so on. It requires a good knowledge of how Groups.io works to be developed over time so that others - the group members - can draw on that knowledge.

Notwithstanding the above a Group Owner may have to step in without reference to a Committee; a member may (accidentally or otherwise) violate Groups.io's Terms of Service and it falls on the Owner to deal with that promptly or risk having the group closed down by Mark Fletcher, should he become aware of the violation. The owner has to ensure that members' on - line behaviour remains within acceptable bounds.

I think you would have a hard time getting general acceptance of any change of title, not least because of the vast number of subscribers Groups.io has, all of whom are (or ought to be!) fully au fait with the accepted terminology. If someone was to come on here (or on beta) and say "I am the Group Administrator for..." it is likely that very few would really know what was meant by it; Owner? Moderator? Something else entirely?

Just don't get hung up over what the title is; remember What's in a name; that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. (William Shakespeare)

Chris


Frances
 

Just a thought - the "owner" can change their display name to Administrator. And "moderators" can change to whatever is appropriate for their role in the group.

Also you can list these in your Guidelines document. GMF has the moderators listed.

Frances
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Chris Jones
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:00 PM, Frances wrote:
Just a thought - the "owner" can change their display name to Administrator. And "moderators" can change to whatever is appropriate for their role in the group.
They can, but IMHO that might make the perception worse not better. As things stand owners & moderators have whatever their Display Name set to displayed (obviously!) and they are not assigned Owner or Moderator by default.

Without setting up second accounts / memberships every post they made would be as Owners. Moderators, (or Administrator) even when that was wholly irrelevant to the purpose of the post. That (IMHO) would look unnecessarily heavyweight and would be better avoided.

Just looking here at GMF; it is extremely common for an owner or moderator to post as a genuine contribution to whatever the post might be. In doing so their "personal" Display Names appear; it might look very different if these run - of - the - mill posts appeared as having come from an owner or moderator. I suggest that that would simply be wrong.

IME "group management" posts are very rare beasts, and are usually for information about the operation of a group. Where "firm" action is required that takes place outside of the wider view of group members, which (again IMHO) is where it belongs.

I may be a lone voice but I think emphasising status within a group for purely routine matters is inappropriate; having anything other than a personal identifier as a Display Name would be a status symbol that might discourage others from participating.

Chris


Mimi Kessler
 

For our group, it would be better if the Owner actually was a different level. As the owner, I do not want the moderators/administrators to have to deal with a bunch of emails that are technical, yet they get all the same emails I get (which is many!). I would prefer to be able to filter some of them at least some of the time. For example, I do all the membership and message approvals under most circumstances. If I go on vacation, I would like to be able to flip a switch and have the moderators get those emails in my absence. But that is not possible. Because I recognize my mortality, I think it is a mistake to not have someone already authorized to take over the day-to-day list management, so I have moderators already identified. They would probably rather not getting all the emails constantly knowing I get them and take care of them.


Peter Cook
 

You can change that by going to their Moderator Notification settings (under each one's member profile). I have several moderators for each of my groups and most of them don't get all of the emails that I get.


 

Hi Teresa Q and all,

OK, you're in the 12 step/tradition universe -- I think you're getting overly hung up on terminology --

A "Chair" still has powers that a typical member would not, same with a "Secretary" -- so there is still "power-over", as feminists would call it.
"Owner" and "Moderator" just reflect functions.
If we are saying there is no hierarchy, no difference in power, between "Chair" and "Secretary" and "Member", we are lying to ourselves.

And, you're kinda asking a very large universe, the entire groups.io universe, to change their existing terminology, to fit what you want.
No offense, so then, what if someone else wants to call this "Raptor" and "plant eater", and "plant", or somesuch?  does groups.io then change to that?  etc?

I have been goddess willing, sober for 31 years -- initially I tried to join several 12 step groups, but was very put off by their rigidity, and I do realize not all such are like that.  But you might consider focusing on the substance, and not just the terminology.  Yep, terminology CAN matter a lot!  (feminist here!) -- but in this instance, it seems like it's not such a big difference from what you're currently using --

and if you have a totally nonhierarchical online universe, you end up with usenet -- which became very hostile chaos pretty quickly.

****************************

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 01:11 AM, TeresaQ wrote:
Our group is a 12 Step/Tradition program group. I realize Yahoo had "owners" while other forums tend to have "administrators". For any of us in the group to feel a need to be owner goes against our Traditions of equality. Trying to be Tradition minded on the internet hierarchy format is close to impossible, I realize. I don't know how much could be changed....

Yet, is it possible to change from "owner" to "administrator"? That would be closer to "Chair", "Secretary" that we are accustomed to. 

Thanks for listening. Teresa Q


 

Mimi,

>>> For our group, it would be better if the Owner actually was a different level. As the owner, I do not want the moderators/administrators to have to deal with a bunch of emails that are technical,

No need for a different level for what you want to do,  and ...

>>> If I go on vacation, I would like to be able to flip a switch and have the moderators get those emails in my absence. But that is not possible

the functionality you are looking for is already there; just like you can set your own notification preferences, so you can of the mods:

Logged-in as the group owner, go to Admin -> Members, and select Mods from the blue button.  Then click on the mod you want to modify, go to their Moderator Notifications area and disable the ones you don't want that particular mod to get.  This will stop them from getting those emails.

Cheers,
Christos


Jenny E
 


Gesine & Teresa Q, I'm coming up on 33 years myself...
Jenny
 
[Emoticons trimmed by Moderator]


OK, you're in the 12 step/tradition universe -- I think you're getting overly hung up on terminology --

A "Chair" still has powers that a typical member would not, same with a "Secretary" -- so there is still "power-over", as feminists would call it.
"Owner" and "Moderator" just reflect functions.
If we are saying there is no hierarchy, no difference in power, between "Chair" and "Secretary" and "Member", we are lying to ourselves.

And, you're kinda asking a very large universe, the entire groups.io universe, to change their existing terminology, to fit what you want.
No offense, so then, what if someone else wants to call this "Raptor" and "plant eater", and "plant", or somesuch?  does groups.io then change to that?  etc?

I have been goddess willing, sober for 31 years -- initially I tried to join several 12 step groups, but was very put off by their rigidity, and I do realize not all such are like that.  But you might consider focusing on the substance, and not just the terminology.  Yep, terminology CAN matter a lot!  (feminist here!) -- but in this instance, it seems like it's not such a big difference from what you're currently using --

and if you have a totally nonhierarchical online universe, you end up with usenet -- which became very hostile chaos pretty quickly.


Our group is a 12 Step/Tradition program group. I realize Yahoo had "owners" while other forums tend to have "administrators". For any of us in the group to feel a need to be owner goes against our Traditions of equality. Trying to be Tradition minded on the internet hierarchy format is close to impossible, I realize. I don't know how much could be changed....

Yet, is it possible to change from "owner" to "administrator"? That would be closer to "Chair", "Secretary" that we are accustomed to. 

Thanks for listening. Teresa Q

 

 


Peter Cook
 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 05:44 PM, Peter Cook wrote:
You can change that by going to their Moderator Notification settings (under each one's member profile). I have several moderators for each of my groups and most of them don't get all of the emails that I get.
(That was a reply to Mimi.)


TeresaQ
 

No, not in 12 Step/Tradition programs which I stressed in the beginning. We are not any type of sports teams, or other examples given. There is NO authority in 12 Step/Tradition programs. No bosses, no hierarchy. I realize a need to handle any spam type problems. 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Chris Jones wrote: A hierarchy of some sort is implicit in Chair and Secretary

Thanks Frances. So you're saying that no one can see that I am the "owner"?  Only I can see it at the top of my page? 

Frances: The "owner" and "moderator" terminology is just about hidden from the members at large.
If "directory" is enabled, it doesn't show there.
Messages a moderator sends aren't flagged with "moderator".
The owner and moderators' names aren't on the homepage of the group.

If no one can see who the mods or owners are then there would be no need for administrator to be used as a display name. Am I understanding you correctly? 


Frances
 

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 09:24 PM, TeresaQ wrote:
Frances: The "owner" and "moderator" terminology is just about hidden from the members at large.
If "directory" is enabled, it doesn't show there.
Messages a moderator sends aren't flagged with "moderator".
The owner and moderators' names aren't on the homepage of the group.

If no one can see who the mods or owners are then there would be no need for administrator to be used as a display name. Am I understanding you correctly? 
Yes.
There is a "group owner" email account but most members never use it. You can email to the group or reply to a member from it.
https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/sending-and-receiving-group-owner-email-messages

Frances
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TeresaQ
 

All too sadly many of us are finding that there is a large  "authority" minded mentality group in the  !2 Step/Tradition world. When in power in the internet world there is the resulting chaos and drama on a regular basis. Many of us realize that ego is ready to jump to the front and work to fight it in ourselves. 

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 02:45 PM, Gesine wrote:  A "Chair" still has powers that a typical member would not, same with a "Secretary" -- so there is still "power-over", as feminists would call it....
If we are saying there is no hierarchy, no difference in power, between "Chair" and "Secretary" and "Member", we are lying to ourselves.


 

TeresaQ wrote:
> No, not in 12 Step/Tradition programs which I stressed in the beginning. We are not any type of sports teams, or other examples given. There is NO authority in 12 Step/Tradition programs. No bosses, no hierarchy. I realize a need to handle any spam type problems. 
>
 
Teresa -
It might help to consider groups.io in terms of a meeting place, and not the structure of your group. Whether you meet in a church, a school, a public facility, or  private building, that place needs an owner who is responsible for maintaining it and seeing that the lights work and the heat is on. In these times, groups.io is acting like that meeting place.
 
Think of the group owner and the moderators in that light. The owner is like the building manager. They are responsible to see that the facility is available and they act as an interface between the group and outside world. Moderators are people who make sure the room is ready, the lights are on, and the coffee's made. They don't run your group, but they are essential to your group having a good space for your meetings.
 
I'm a group owner of several groups, and moderator on a number of others, but I consistently use the title of "list janitor" in those situations. I am someone who facilitates the group's operation. I can also be a member, and in those instances I just sign my name like any other member. But when the toilet won't flush or someone has a problem getting into the building, I take the responsibility of helping them. But the groups run themselves. They generate their own discussions and provide a place for others to bring wisdom, questions, and often hard-earned lessons.
 
I hope this helps you with your quandry.
 
Dano