two groups, one email


Glenn Glazer
 

So, we have someone who is a member of two groups.io groups and a message was sent to both groups on the To: line. The person only received one email.

Is this a feature, some sort filtering?

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


Joseph Hudson
 

Hi Glenn, is the other person maybe on Moderator's status on the other group? This could possibly be why.

On Feb 13, 2020, at 4:24 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@gmail.com> wrote:

So, we have someone who is a member of two groups.io groups and a message was sent to both groups on the To: line. The person only received one email.

Is this a feature, some sort filtering?

Best,

Glenn


Bill Burns
 

I happen to know that the recipient is using the same gmail address on both groups, and I believe that gmail is suppressing one copy in his (web) inbox because the two messages have the same Message ID. So when he retrieves messages from both groups, only one copy is there to be downloaded.

Here's another example:

https://support.google.com/mail/thread/9777730?hl=en

Bill

On 13-Feb-20 5:49 PM, Joseph Hudson wrote:
Hi Glenn, is the other person maybe on Moderator's status on the other group? This could possibly be why.

On Feb 13, 2020, at 4:24 PM, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@gmail.com> wrote:

So, we have someone who is a member of two groups.io groups and a message was sent to both groups on the To: line. The person only received one email.

Is this a feature, some sort filtering?

Best,

Glenn


Duane
 

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 04:33 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Is this a feature, some sort filtering?
Should only depend on their delivery choice for the groups.  I sometimes send a message to 2 or 3 of the groups I have and always get copies from each.

Duane
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Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/13/2020 16:16, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 04:33 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Is this a feature, some sort filtering?
Should only depend on their delivery choice for the groups.  I sometimes send a message to 2 or 3 of the groups I have and always get copies from each.

Duane

Thanks, Duane.

I think Bill Burns may be right, but I think this is a bug in their behavior with respect to groups. In particular, if the message is sent to Group A and Group B, it makes it hard for them to reply to Group B if they are using email (as most of our particular members do).

Best,

Glenn


Bill Burns
 

There's another Gmail problem that Groups.io has taken care of, where Gmail doesn't tag your own messages to the list with "Inbox" when they come back to you, as it's already tagged them as "Sent".

Remember that Gmail doesn't actually have folders; all the messages are in the same place, and the web interface just looks at the tag and displays the messages in the appropriate virtual folder. So there is only ever one copy of such messages, and it can't have two tags at the same time.

To fix this, io has this option on the user's account, in Preferences, "I always want copies of my own emails". This presumably mungs the headers so that Gmail does not identify the outgoing and incoming messages as being the same, and can then show the outgoing copy in Sent and the incoming one in Inbox.

I don't see any easy way this could be implemented when the same message is in two different groups, as it's only when they get to Gmail that the determination can be made that they both have the same ID.

--
Bill

On 13-Feb-20 7:31 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
On 2/13/2020 16:16, Duane wrote:
On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 04:33 PM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Is this a feature, some sort filtering?
Should only depend on their delivery choice for the groups.  I
sometimes send a message to 2 or 3 of the groups I have and always
get copies from each.
Duane
Thanks, Duane.
I think Bill Burns may be right, but I think this is a bug in their behavior with respect to groups. In particular, if the message is sent to Group A and Group B, it makes it hard for them to reply to Group B if they are using email (as most of our particular members do).
Best,
Glenn


 

Glenn,

I think Bill Burns may be right, but I think this is a bug in their
behavior with respect to groups.
Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need more than one copy of the "same" message.

This normally manifests as not receiving your own messages back, because you already have the copy you sent. Groups.io's work-around fixes that by replacing the Message-ID field in the message header when sent back to the same address as it came from.

Shal


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Bill,

To fix this, io has this option on the user's account, in Preferences,
"I always want copies of my own emails". This presumably mungs the
headers so that Gmail does not identify the outgoing and incoming
messages as being the same, and can then show the outgoing copy in
Sent and the incoming one in Inbox.
Correct. The header field involved is Message-ID.

I don't see any easy way this could be implemented when the same
message is in two different groups, as it's only when they get to
Gmail that the determination can be made that they both have the same
ID.
I'm not sure where in Groups.io's message processing the replacement of the Message-ID field is implemented. It is conceivable that Mark could arrange it to be independently generated in each group, as are the Subject tag and message footer.

Shal


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Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/13/2020 23:24, Shal Farley wrote:
Glenn,

> I think Bill Burns may be right, but I think this is a bug in their
> behavior with respect to groups.

Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need more than one copy of the "same" message.

Well, no, I question the assertion of no need. As I wrote in the part you snipped out:

In particular, if the message is sent to Group A and Group B, it makes it hard for them to reply to Group B if they are using email (as most of our particular members do).

That's a need.

Best,

Glenn


Duane
 

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:28 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I question the assertion of no need.
Again, that's a gmail thing.  THEY assume that you don't need more than one copy.  A message sent to multiple groups will have the same Message-ID, so they only store/show the first to arrive back.

Duane
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Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/14/2020 07:44, Duane wrote:
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 09:28 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
I question the assertion of no need.
Again, that's a gmail thing.  THEY assume that you don't need more than one copy.  A message sent to multiple groups will have the same Message-ID, so they only store/show the first to arrive back.

Duane

Oh, I agree, Duane. That's why I called it a bug in gmail not a bug in groups.io. What I questioned is Shal's assertion in the part you snipped out:

Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need more than one copy of the "same" message.

I think that's wrong and I think gmail's duplicate pruning is way too aggressive.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


Rubens
 

...
GG| Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need
| more than one copy of the "same" message.


Well, in the last years (after a terrible
update from Microsoft), it is exactly
the same behaviour with Outlook.com
emailing service...

In other words, if you post the same
email to 2 or more different Yahoo's
groups, then for those who subscribe
to Outlook.com they will receive only
a single copy.

I don't know if it is the same for
Groups.io, though.


[ ] Rubens






.


Glenn Glazer
 

With respect to all of this, I have filed the following feedback with Gmail, Page only knows if they will ever act on it:

Gmail is too aggressive about pruning receipts of duplicate emails. Consider the following scenario:

We have two people, A and B, who both belong to two mailing lists, G and H.  

A sends an email to G and H, but B only gets the email from one list, say G.

But what if B wants to respond to the email in the context of list H? B may not even be aware that the email went to H unless they they closely inspect the headers.

I would thus encourage Gmail to consider the tuple (list, person) and not just person when attempting to ascertain whether an email is a duplicate or not.

Best,

Glenn


Nivard Ovington
 

Good luck with that one ;-)

Its been years and a great number of complaints and zero response

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On 14/02/2020 19:26, Glenn Glazer wrote:
With respect to all of this, I have filed the following feedback with Gmail, Page only knows if they will ever act on it:
Gmail is too aggressive about pruning receipts of duplicate emails.
Consider the following scenario:


Glenn Glazer
 

Yeah, I kinda figured I was shouting into the wind, but heck, maybe it is the plus one vote that tips them into action. Five minutes of my time seemed worth the risk.

Best,

Glenn


On 2/14/2020 11:37, Nivard Ovington wrote:
Good luck with that one ;-)

Its been years and a great number of complaints and zero response

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On 14/02/2020 19:26, Glenn Glazer wrote:
With respect to all of this, I have filed the following feedback with Gmail, Page only knows if they will ever act on it:

    Gmail is too aggressive about pruning receipts of duplicate emails.
    Consider the following scenario:


Nivard Ovington
 

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the change ;-)

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On 14/02/2020 20:03, Glenn Glazer wrote:
Yeah, I kinda figured I was shouting into the wind, but heck, maybe it is the plus one vote that tips them into action. Five minutes of my time seemed worth the risk.
Best,
Glenn


Bill Burns
 

On 14-Feb-20 10:09 AM, Glenn Glazer wrote:
On 2/13/2020 23:24, Shal Farley wrote:
Glenn,

> I think Bill Burns may be right, but I think this is a bug in their
> behavior with respect to groups.
Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need more than one copy of the
"same" message.
Well, no, I question the assertion of no need. As I wrote in the part you snipped out:
In particular, if the message is sent to Group A and Group B, it
makes it hard for them to reply to Group B if they are using email
(as most of our particular members do).
That's a need.
Best,
Glenn
I can't speak for Shal, but I suspect he was being ironic there, in that Google *knows* what you need, so take it or leave it.

--
Bill


 

Glenn,

I wrote:

Yup, that's a Gmail thing: You don't need more than one copy of the
"same" message.
I should have worded this better so that it was clear that I was attributing that attitude to Gmail, not myself.

I personally detest that attribute of Gmail, and have never used it as a posting address in Yahoo Groups for that reason. I've been relieved that Groups.io has a work-around for it.

I don't think I have any circumstances where I've posted the same message to two groups, so if the work-around isn't effective in that case that's something to investigate, and possibly report as a suggestion (if not a bug) to Groups.io.

Shal


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