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Re: #settings #question Is there ANY way to overcome a settings error? #settings #question

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 10:06 PM, Dan Tucker - FireTuck wrote:
I cannot set the Privacy Permissions now to allow the Member Profiles to be viewed. Who would have known.
Member profiles are accessed via the Directory. The Directory can be toggled on and off as needed. https://groups.io/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/customizing-settings-for-premium-and-enterprise-features/member-directory The privacy setting for the group message archive has no bearing on this.

However, please note that each member must create a profile -- and share it -- before they will be able to see the profiles of others.

I cannot toggle "Members" in the 'Member List Visibility' pulldown.
The Member List is an index of subscriptions, not profiles.

You can make the Member List visible too, but only if your group uses the Restricted method of Spam Control. This is to keep spammers from joining your group just to harvest the email addresses that are found there. 
 
Hope this helps,
Bruce

Check out the groups.io Help Center and groups.io Owners Manual


Re: #settings #question Is there ANY way to overcome a settings error? #settings #question

 

Thank you for this advice. 
I sincerely hope I never have to go that route. 


On Jan 17, 2021, at 19:33, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

Dan,

Regardless of the setting issue, answering this specifically, in general:

Is it possible to Delete the Group (freeing the name up) and re-create the Group?

Yes, you can always delete and recreate a group, but before doing so, always change the group name (address) first to something unique, like let's say Dan + 3 first digits of your SSN + a relative's name + last 4 digits of your phone, you get the idea, then delete the group; if you don't do this, the name won't be available for reuse for possibly quite some time and you'll be stuck until it becomes available.

Cheers,
Christos


Re: #settings #question Is there ANY way to overcome a settings error? #settings #question

 

Dan,

Regardless of the setting issue, answering this specifically, in general:

Is it possible to Delete the Group (freeing the name up) and re-create the Group?

Yes, you can always delete and recreate a group, but before doing so, always change the group name (address) first to something unique, like let's say Dan + 3 first digits of your SSN + a relative's name + last 4 digits of your phone, you get the idea, then delete the group; if you don't do this, the name won't be available for reuse for possibly quite some time and you'll be stuck until it becomes available.

Cheers,
Christos


Re: #settings #question Is there ANY way to overcome a settings error? #settings #question

Duane
 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 09:06 PM, Dan Tucker - FireTuck wrote:
How do I get around this? Is it possible to change this?
You didn't goof, you just haven't read enough.  Check in the Owners Manual, in the section for Privacy Settings, under the Member List Visibility setting.  Notice the ! Important: statement there.  (Section 3.4.2 of the PDF version.)

Duane
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GMF's Unofficial Help Wiki: https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki


#settings #question Is there ANY way to overcome a settings error? #settings #question

 

Okay, so I apparently goofed while setting up the Group. It was so easy to do, and didn't really take much effort, I overlooked a small detail - actually, I never looked at it at all.

Step 8, in Creating a Group includes:
  1. In the Visibility dropdown list, select the option you want to use for your group and its messages (see the table below). This option controls whether your group and its message archive are visible to the general public or only to group members.

! Important: When you make a message archive private, you cannot change it later to be publicly viewable. The “private messages” setting is not reversible. Therefore, at this stage, you should be certain about what visibility you want your message archive to have.

That's pretty clear - if you read it and understand the impact of this. I cannot set the Privacy Permissions now to allow the Member Profiles to be viewed. Who would have known.

How do I get around this? Is it possible to change this? Is it possible to Delete the Group (freeing the name up) and re-create the Group?

I cannot toggle "Members" in the 'Member List Visibility' pulldown.

Thanks to anyone that can help.


Re: No files, database, photos, etc

Donald Hellen
 

Alicia . . .

On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 07:22:02 -0800, "Alicia Dean"
<Alicia@AliciaDean.com> wrote:


I created a new group and on the left pane, there are no options for files, database, calendar, etc. Can someone please help?

Did you set it up as a premium group and pay the fee to get those
features? They're no longer available in a basic group created after a
certain date.

Donald



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
https://groups.io/g/ICOM https://groups.io/g/Ham-Antennas
https://groups.io/g/HamRadioHelp https://groups.io/g/Baofeng
https://groups.io/g/CHIRP https://rf-amplifiers.groups.io/g/main


Re: No files, database, photos, etc

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Jan 17, 2021 at 10:31 AM, Alicia Dean wrote:
I created a new group and on the left pane, there are no options for files, database, calendar, etc. Can someone please help?
Alicia -- Free groups created after August 24, 2020 do not have those features. You have to upgrade to Premium.

See https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/files/Groups.io%20features%20%28includes%20legacy%20stuff%29.pdf for details.

Regards,
Bruce 

Check out the groups.io Help Center and groups.io Owners Manual


No files, database, photos, etc

Alicia Dean
 

I created a new group and on the left pane, there are no options for files, database, calendar, etc. Can someone please help?

Thank you!


Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Shal,

From my (owner) perspective, the size of the list of potential successors has nothing to do with an owner’s selection of a successor. The determining factor will always be the limited number of people an owner would seriously consider to replace them “if and/or when”.

That’s always going to be a very small number and its source is utterly immaterial. Beyond that the important skills essential to a good moderator and a good owner are totally different. The essential clerical function of authorizing a “first” (moderated) post is pretty much automatic, absent some obvious attempt to spam the group.

On the other hand, arbitrating an emerging “flame war” is something both a good moderator AND a good owner should be able to do. Personally, I tend to choose more based on an individual’s technical knowledge (which gives them good “credibility” in a technically oriented group), as well as their temperament and talent in dealing with all types of people. Basically, I want large brains and small egos.

The “life experience” of a successful candidate is far more important than whether or not they have been a moderator. But then, our moderator requirements are far less sophisticated that those of GMF.

Best!

WRB

On Jan 17, 2021, at 1:53 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

WRB,

So why not simply allow appointment of (a), (b), then (c) successor
designations by an owner to assure one will accept?
That's what I envision. I'm merely talking about the selection of (a), (b), (c), ... How big a list of names/addresses must the owner scroll through - one the size of the Moderators list, or one the size of the Members list?

But my intuition is that promotion from the pool of moderators will >> seem more natural, and be easier to explain.
Explain to whom?
To group owners endeavoring to use this feature.

Shal


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Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Hi Shal,

Comments below.

Best!

WRB

— 

On Jan 17, 2021, at 1:45 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Ken,

> In response to the list that has very little traffic, I would expect
> the first thing the successor code would do is try to contact the
> current owners.

My idea would, step (3), but if it was an owner that went absent then (2) would also be triggered at the same time, giving that owner no time to "cure" the absent status before a successor is appointed.

In the event an owner "woke up" post-succession there wouldn't ordinarily be a problem as my mechanism doesn't demote the inactive owner. It would only become a problem if the successor took some adverse action before the absent owner took control again.

So to head off that possible problem maybe step (3) should have its own time-out control so that notification could go out prior to triggering succession according to step (2).

<Maybe also a time-out control preventing “some adverse post-succession action demoting or removing an owner suspected of being inactive, incapacitated or dead for, say, six months?.>

> This is where having more than one way to contact any owner is
> critical.

That's one thing that's missing from my original description.

What stalled me on that was "how".

As things stand the only thing Groups.io has on file is the owner's email address. Given how often I've read stories of members that change providers or otherwise lose access to their email inbox without remembering to first update their (Groups.io or Yahoo) account, how many times I've read of members not noticing things diverted to their Spam folder, how many times we've seen email services go into a period of rejecting groups.io messages due to a blacklisting service... Contact via the primary email address seemed inadequate.

I like the idea of having Account options for alternate contact methods (alternate email and/or phone number for text messaging), but I hesitate to incorporate them in this idea, for it may weigh down this idea enough to sink it.

<There’s going to have to be a form to establish a “springing” owner successor.  An OPTION at that time for an owner to provide an alternate email and/or phone number capable of receiving text messaging would not seem an undue burden.>

Alternate contact methods would naturally be ideal for use for many other purposes, so I'm inclined to treat that as a separate suggestion that could be implemented before or after this one.

<If that “separate suggestion” were to propose an owner option to do this at any time, that’s a solution, too.>

Still pondering.

Shal


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Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

txercoupemuseum.org
 

Also, Yahoo, too, required other owners of equal power if an owner wished to assure their groups would continue; a step that more than a few times resulted in owners losing control of THEIR groups when someone so “promoted” then turn around and demoted or removed the prior owner. There was no meaningful recourse, same as is presently the case here in Groups.io without the option to designate a “springing” successor.

Best!

WRB

On Jan 17, 2021, at 12:50 AM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@gmail.com> wrote:

Nivard,

This group ownership subject seems to be a pre-occupation of ex Yahoo
groups
It is a sore point for many Yahoo Groups members and owners, as over the decades of its existence many groups were orphaned or abandoned; the longer a service like this exists, the more likely that something unfortunate will happen to a sole owner or their account.

Yahoo's account policies at times created them unfairly by cancelling the account of an owner based on a complaint in some other Yahoo service; Yahoo Answers for example was particularly aggressive about deleting user accounts for various infractions.

Shal


Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

 

WRB,

So why not simply allow appointment of (a), (b), then (c) successor
designations by an owner to assure one will accept?
That's what I envision. I'm merely talking about the selection of (a), (b), (c), ... How big a list of names/addresses must the owner scroll through - one the size of the Moderators list, or one the size of the Members list?

But my intuition is that promotion from the pool of moderators will seem more natural, and be easier to explain.
Explain to whom?
To group owners endeavoring to use this feature.

Shal


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Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

 

Ken,

In response to the list that has very little traffic, I would expect
the first thing the successor code would do is try to contact the
current owners.
My idea would, step (3), but if it was an owner that went absent then (2) would also be triggered at the same time, giving that owner no time to "cure" the absent status before a successor is appointed.

In the event an owner "woke up" post-succession there wouldn't ordinarily be a problem as my mechanism doesn't demote the inactive owner. It would only become a problem if the successor took some adverse action before the absent owner took control again.

So to head off that possible problem maybe step (3) should have its own time-out control so that notification could go out prior to triggering succession according to step (2).

This is where having more than one way to contact any owner is
critical.
That's one thing that's missing from my original description.

What stalled me on that was "how".

As things stand the only thing Groups.io has on file is the owner's email address. Given how often I've read stories of members that change providers or otherwise lose access to their email inbox without remembering to first update their (Groups.io or Yahoo) account, how many times I've read of members not noticing things diverted to their Spam folder, how many times we've seen email services go into a period of rejecting groups.io messages due to a blacklisting service... Contact via the primary email address seemed inadequate.

I like the idea of having Account options for alternate contact methods (alternate email and/or phone number for text messaging), but I hesitate to incorporate them in this idea, for it may weigh down this idea enough to sink it.

Alternate contact methods would naturally be ideal for use for many other purposes, so I'm inclined to treat that as a separate suggestion that could be implemented before or after this one.

Still pondering.

Shal


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Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

 

Nivard,

This group ownership subject seems to be a pre-occupation of ex Yahoo
groups
It is a sore point for many Yahoo Groups members and owners, as over the decades of its existence many groups were orphaned or abandoned; the longer a service like this exists, the more likely that something unfortunate will happen to a sole owner or their account.

Yahoo's account policies at times created them unfairly by cancelling the account of an owner based on a complaint in some other Yahoo service; Yahoo Answers for example was particularly aggressive about deleting user accounts for various infractions.

Shal


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Re: Do you put screenshots in instructions to your members? If so, how?

 

Shal,

Most-likely overkill but a new app allows you to (supposedly) easily use a powerful graphics editor within the browser, on any device: Photopea | Online Photo Editor

Cheers,
Christos


Re: Changed owner emails and subscriptions did not transfer over - Group has no owner as of now #owner #email

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 02:59 PM, Pat Salinas wrote:
I have attached the original email…Let me know if you can see it.
Pat -- Did you ever follow up on the information I originally referred you to (i.e.: at https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/8512)  ?

Based on the email you provided, you should be able to log in under the GSGatSGG@... email address and resume group ownership activities. If that doesn't work, try mpsalinas59@..

One or the other should work.

Regards,
Bruce

Check out the groups.io Help Center and groups.io Owners Manual


Re: Changed owner emails and subscriptions did not transfer over - Group has no owner as of now #owner #email

Pat Salinas
 

Yes!

I have attached the original email…Let me know if you can see it.



On Jan 16, 2021, at 2:02 PM, Christos G. Psarras <christos@...> wrote:

Bruce,


On 2021-01-16 11:29, Bruce Bowman via groups.io wrote:
Changing your email address should not have caused you to lose group ownership. Are you sure you didn't merge it with another email address instead?

Yeah, that would explain it; she had both accounts created already at GIO, and (unwittingly) did a merge into the new account resulting in losing the ownership info.  Going back doesn't matter anymore, that info is gone.  But, why did GIO allow the currently-only group owner to be removed (or demoted) from the group??  I thought that couldn't happen, at least when attempted manually by someone.  I can see someone losing ownership due to a bad merge if there are other owners in that group.

Pat, do you remember the exact wording of the note that popped up on screen the first time you changed the account to the new address?

Also, try this to see what happens so we can make certain; right now from what I understand, you are stuck at the reset-pwd-back step and are still logged-in with the old account which created the group; if I'm wrong and you reverted back reverse the values, we are just trying to see if we have only one GIO account or both (somehow).  Go to your account settings, Aliases, add the new account there and click on "Add Alias"; if you did a merge back then originally, you should not get an error and you should see the new address added as an alias, and if so, delete it.

But if you get an error that the account is already registered, that means both accounts are present at GIO, then what the heck??

Cheers,
Christos



Re: Changed owner emails and subscriptions did not transfer over - Group has no owner as of now #owner #email

 

Bruce,


On 2021-01-16 11:29, Bruce Bowman via groups.io wrote:
Changing your email address should not have caused you to lose group ownership. Are you sure you didn't merge it with another email address instead?

Yeah, that would explain it; she had both accounts created already at GIO, and (unwittingly) did a merge into the new account resulting in losing the ownership info.  Going back doesn't matter anymore, that info is gone.  But, why did GIO allow the currently-only group owner to be removed (or demoted) from the group??  I thought that couldn't happen, at least when attempted manually by someone.  I can see someone losing ownership due to a bad merge if there are other owners in that group.

Pat, do you remember the exact wording of the note that popped up on screen the first time you changed the account to the new address?

Also, try this to see what happens so we can make certain; right now from what I understand, you are stuck at the reset-pwd-back step and are still logged-in with the old account which created the group; if I'm wrong and you reverted back reverse the values, we are just trying to see if we have only one GIO account or both (somehow).  Go to your account settings, Aliases, add the new account there and click on "Add Alias"; if you did a merge back then originally, you should not get an error and you should see the new address added as an alias, and if so, delete it.

But if you get an error that the account is already registered, that means both accounts are present at GIO, then what the heck??

Cheers,
Christos


Re: Single Owner Group - Owner Deceased

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 10:02 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

jonathon,

> If I understand the proposal correctly, the list would be transferred
> to the appointed person, even if I was still alive and kicking, simply
> due to the low traffic of the list.
No, I was talking about you not visiting a groups.io website nor sending any message to any io-group, for at least two months.

Like: some member clicks an "owner seems AWOL"-button, the system checks... and either sends a message to the member that the owner is still active, or sends messages to the owner asking for a sign of life.

Or maybe without such a button, have the system automatically send out a confirmation-request to the owner if (s)he hasn't used the site for months

b) You set the interval. Although I would likely suggest that the interval be limited to a year max.
Intervals of more than a year don't sound realistic

c) Only if you're a complete no-show for the interval you selected. In
my intent it isn't just messages posting, but using any email command,
or approval/rejection by email, or visiting the group's pages (Members
list, Activity log, ... anywhere).
exactly

> For Premium & Enterprise lists, require both a mailing address, and a
> phone number. There are three circumstances under which the "owner
> succession" goes into effect:

In my proposal, no to anything that requires manual action at Groups.io.
In the worst cases, manual action would be necessary

> * A death certificate ...
that would require knowing someones official name, plus other identifying features, like date of birth and social security-number. Too much hassle, too much privacy-issues

> * An "owner succession" vote, ...
If the designated successor is gone too, and there is no moderator left, yes

> * A request from the legal guardian of the owner ...
I don't think that would happen often enough to warrant provisions

. I'm looking for something that can be implemented purely as a software
mechanism (one of Mark's strong suits, apparently).
An automated process should handle most of the cases. Seems to me we're getting close to a consensus on most of it

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


What can an Owner do that no Moderator ever can do?

 

I can't see anything that a Moderator of my group who I've give (checked-off)  full Moderator rights I can't see could not do other than delete the group or possibly create more co-owners. 

Just curious if any of you can think of something (other than those two items of action) that someone with full Moderator rights can't do? 

Alex
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