Date   

Re: Absentee Owner Succession feature

 

Shal,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 04:06 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
This has now been fixed.

- Moderators can no longer change the roles of owners.
- Moderators can no longer change the subscription settings of owners.
-- Mark Fletcher, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/24228
I´ve seen Mark´s message in Beta, and I am glad this is fixed. I understand that he changed the functionality, not the wording.
This means that if an owner doesn't want to run the risk of promoting
anyone else to (co-equal) owner, promoting someone to fully-permissioned
moderator is a reasonable alternative.
This is what I understand was the case in Yahoo-groups. And as I wrote in the same message you are referring to I find it far too complicated and unnecessary to provide technical solutions for the various cases in which an actual owner forgets or refuses to provide for a successor. 
That moderator would be able to do everything necessary to sustain the
group indefinitely, including promoting others to succeed him/her as
moderator, without the ability to unseat the owner.
Very good! So the group can go on and on, and the succeeding moderator has access to all of the members´ email addresses and can open up a new group if he wants to be the owner. For me this is perfect.

Victoria
 


Re: How do YOU choose Moderators?, now Absentee Owner Succession feature

Chris Jones
 

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 08:21 AM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
Following Mark’s announcement I checked out the administrative “Moderator Permissions” selection form and I don’t see any change(s).
There is definitely a difference, although it isn't immediately visible. A Moderator - even with a full set of permissions to set other moderator permissions, can no longer promote anyone to Owner or decapitate the existing Owner. It's only when someone tries to do the above that they will find they can't.
 
Perhaps Mark will consider limiting groups to a single “Client Owner”.
As an option, perhaps. As a default state I'd rather he didn't.

 I would presume the same constraints he has placed on undesired moderator behavior could similarly limit undesired co-owner behavior.  THEN Owners could appoint co-owners knowing these can always be demoted if or when I become unsatisfied with their performance.  The only “down side” is that I really don’t see the need for “more chefs” so long as I remain ready and willing to do what I am doing.
I am a (co)owner of a group; this came about about 18 months ago when the proper owner was going away for several weeks. I mentioned to him that the general view on GMF was that in such circumstances having a co - owner was perhaps a good idea, and minutes later the two of us who were moderators were co - owners. There it has remained ever since. We communicate between us quite regularly (often on non - group matters) without any signs of disagreements arising, and we certainly don't see any need to assess one another's performance.

I must say I am less than comfortable with the idea of a strictly enforced hierarchy of Owner / Senior & Junior Moderators / Members  - or "Ranking" as it was termed in a different thread. I suppose there may be groups where it might be necessary, but as yet I am unaware of what the substantive reasons might be.

Chris


Re: How do YOU choose Moderators?, now Absentee Owner Succession feature

 

WRB,

Yes, are messages to that effect here (I forget where), but as I
recall they were not at all specific as to which privileges were
dangerous to grant and why.
Michael wrote:
-If a Moderator has "Set Moderator Privileges" they can promote
themself to Owner, and depose the Owner and/or delete the group.
https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/message/29145

Following Mark’s announcement I checked out the administrative
“Moderator Permissions” selection form and I don’t see any change(s).
The nature of the change was to make the function of that permission actually match its name and description. So no change to that text was necessary.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/24228

Perhaps Mark will consider limiting groups to a single “Client Owner”.
I would presume the same constraints he has placed on undesired
moderator behavior could similarly limit undesired co-owner behavior.
THEN Owners could appoint co-owners knowing these can always be
demoted if or when I become unsatisfied with their performance.
Under the new circumstances, I don't think you have any need for co-owners. It sounds to me like a fully permissioned moderator can do everything you might want a co-owner to do, and cannot unseat an owner.

My preference by far remains an option to appoint a successor, a “will
option” that conveys powers ONLY if and when I am unavailable to make
an Owner-exclusive decision for some unreasonable period or die in
office.
As far as I know Mark hasn't said anything about your suggestion.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/topic/ensuring_group/71205153

Shal


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Re: How do YOU choose Moderators?, now Absentee Owner Succession feature

txercoupemuseum.org
 

I don’t want to hijack anyone’s thread or be accused of being Off Topic, but we have two entirely separate but functionally identical subjects under discussion here.
 
Yes, are messages to that effect here (I forget where), but as I recall they were not at all specific as to which privileges were dangerous to grant and why.  Following Mark’s announcement I checked out the administrative “Moderator Permissions” selection form and I don’t see any change(s).
 
Perhaps Mark will consider limiting groups to a single “Client Owner”.  I would presume the same constraints he has placed on undesired moderator behavior could similarly limit undesired co-owner behavior.  THEN Owners could appoint co-owners knowing these can always be demoted if or when I become unsatisfied with their performance.  The only “down side” is that I really don’t see the need for “more chefs” so long as I remain ready and willing to do what I am doing.
 
My preference by far remains an option to appoint a successor, a “will option” that conveys powers ONLY if and when I am unavailable to make an Owner-exclusive decision for some unreasonable period or die in office.  The desired option would authorize Groups.io at such time (and not before) to transfer any and all necessary operational power(s) within my group(s) to said successor, who could then take over the group(s) or oversee some process to otherwise arrive at reasonable consensus in choosing a new Owner.
 
WRB
 
— 

[mod note: Marie-Christine's message below is from How do YOU choose Moderators? and cf. the earlier topic Absentee Owner Succession feature]

On Feb 17, 2020, at 12:08 AM, Marie-Christine via Groups.Io <m-c.mahe@...> wrote:

No matter what method you choose to make people moderators, I'd advise you to be careful not to make them owners right off, so they cannot get rid of you. There are messages to that effect here, search for the right options.

<snip>

My main point is that you don't just appoint moderators and wash your hands of the group.  The moderators need initial training, they need handholding for a good while, and they need to be swiftly removed if power goes to their head and they start misbehaving.  You need to be actively monitoring them, not just waiting for complaints.  <snip>
--
Marie-Christine
_._,_._,_


subgroup moderator posting to main group #subgroups

Marie-Christine
 

I'm in trouble with my (overlapping but separate) subgroups here.  I've got a fool as moderator for one of them (don't ask, real life drama).  And he's sending messages to my main group, which I thought was firmly locked down. It's announcement-only, moderators only posting, every message moderated, nothing supposed to get through.  The fool is moderator in one subgroup, but none other, and certainly not the main group.

Yet I just got in my regular mail a message from him to the main group.  When I look at the group itself, nothing is 'pending', so I'm afraid that's what really happened.

So of course I'm going to rip off his privileges right away, as well as his face.  But tell me, isn't this a bug?  Do you really mean every subgroup moderator to be a moderator for the entire main group?  This is going to really restrict how I recruit sub-moderators if so..
--
Marie-Christine


Re: Direct adding members: What happens if email is already in group?

 

Pam,

Question is: what happens if I try to direct add an email that is
already in the group? Will it reject (my hope) or will the recipient
get the direct add email (which would create confusion)?
If you check the box for the subgroup in question when you do the Direct Add (in the primary group) I believe those that were not in the subgroup will receive the subgroup's Welcome notice (if it has an active one), but not a system-generated "You've been added" notice.

If they were already in both the primary and subgroup they'll receive nothing, but you will be shown a result page that indicates that they were not added.

If they were in neither the primary and subgroup I believe they receive a single "you were added", but a Welcome from either, both, or neither of the subgroup and primary group, depending on the active settings for Welcome notices in those groups.

Shal


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Re: How do YOU choose Moderators?

Marie-Christine
 

No matter what method you choose to make people moderators, I'd advise you to be careful not to make them owners right off, so they cannot get rid of you. There are messages to that effect here, search for the right options.

If your groups are long in the tooth, it should be fairly easy to pick people who have been reasonable in the past, who are capable of being both fair and firm in enforcing rules.  Note that this can change quickly in an over 80s group, alas. 

My main point is that you don't just appoint moderators and wash your hands of the group.  The moderators need initial training, they need handholding for a good while, and they need to be swiftly removed if power goes to their head and they start misbehaving.  You need to be actively monitoring them, not just waiting for complaints.  So it's easier than if you were doing it yourself, but not that much of time saver up front.
--
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Re: <enter> vs <shift><enter>

 

Bob,

Is there a reason behind the "backwards" use of <enter> vs
<shift><enter> in the message composition?
As I recall, there was general dissatisfaction in beta with the old editor (SummerNote) because it used Enter for new paragraph - resulting whitespace between lines separated by a single click of Enter. Many users believed that this was contrary their experience with other email interfaces.

So Mark switched it for message composition when launching the new editor (tinyMCE), and everyone seemed satisfied with that.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/13778

When he implemented the new editor in Wiki pages he left it the other way, with Enter creating a new paragraph, because of a perception that wiki page editing is more akin to document editing, where the use of paragraphs is more natural.

Shal


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Re: <enter> vs <shift><enter>

Bob Schrempp
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 02:27 PM, Bruce Bowman wrote:
Is there a reason behind the "backwards" use of  <enter> vs <shift><enter> in the message composition?
Not that I can recall. The editor uses the tinymce 4.6 javascript library, so a search of the docs might turn up something: https://www.tiny.cloud/docs/
I read this as, because that is the way it is done in the javascript library we are using, we did not make it that way. 

Thanks, this makes sense, it was not a choice by Groups.io to do it that way. 


Bob


Re: Absentee Owner Succession feature

 

For those following this part of the conversation:

Victoria wrote:

Important to me seems this: None of the moderators should have the
authority to dismiss the owner.
This has now been fixed.

- Moderators can no longer change the roles of owners.
- Moderators can no longer change the subscription settings of owners.
-- Mark Fletcher, https://beta.groups.io/g/main/message/24228

This means that if an owner doesn't want to run the risk of promoting anyone else to (co-equal) owner, promoting someone to fully-permissioned moderator is a reasonable alternative.

That moderator would be able to do everything necessary to sustain the group indefinitely, including promoting others to succeed him/her as moderator, without the ability to unseat the owner.

Shal


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Re: Message History

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 08:11 PM, Tommy Meehan wrote:
The time lag in recording message counts seems to have cleared up.
I figured it would.  Mark mentioned Friday evening that he had the new search system up and running.  If I remember right, he has the job run at night when there's less load.  I believe that in this case, it had to reindex the entire site, so probably a few days 'work'.

Duane
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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Steve Hayes
 

On 16 Feb 2020 at 12:15, Shal Farley wrote:

> 2) While it is true that HTML encoding makes the size of the message >
larger than plain text, the difference is vanishingly small compared > to a
single image or attachment, ...

Perhaps not always vanishingly (I'm thinking of those email clients that
include a bulky CSS header in each outbound formatted message) but in
general I concur that images and other files use more space. But at least
pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't
resist that).
But not every message needs a picture.

I occasionally send genealogical forms in RTF format as attachments. They
don't work too well as plain text, but they rarely come to more than 20-40k.
Some people's HTML messages, however, are multi-megabyte ones, compared with
the plain text versions -- that's not "vanishingly small".

So I have all my groups.io forums set to plain text, both sending and
receiving, but with attachments allowed.






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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni
 

Okay, now I understand.
So in essence it doesn't save space in my group's site to insert an image rather then attach it.
I have been conservative and inserted images where I can and not attaching them. But now
I understand those may be treated as attachments so it makes no difference how those images get shown.
Thanks for explaining it. Leeni
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 02/16/20 19:29:08
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
Leeni,
 
  > Now please explain in non technical terms for me and those who don't
  > know what HTML means.
 
Ok, sorry.
 
When you create an image (or take a photo) and save that on your
computer, the image is stored in a file on your computer. So if you
paste or insert that image into your email message body, for it to
appear on when recipient opens your message that file must somehow be
conveyed to the recipient's computer (or mobile device).
 
Most commonly this happens by your email interface reading the image
file and attaching it to your message, and also inserting into your
message body a special marker that in effect says "display that
attachment here".
 
This is why the images inserted in your messages got swept up in the
deletion of attachments - the system treated those image files as
ordinary attachments.
 
  > All I know is when I am in gmail and others are in their email
  > provider emails, they select what looks like a postage stamp that says
  > insert photo or insert image and then select an image to be placed in
  > the body of the email. You mean those are considered attachments?
 
Yes. In almost all cases.
 
I think if you drag and drop an image from a web site into your email
message you might end up with a slightly different type of image marker
in your email body, one that says "display the image from that web site
here" (a "remote" image). Most receiving email interfaces will block
such images unless the user opts to allow it (as a privacy matter).
 
I had also mentioned another type of image marker that says "display the
following encoded image here" (an "inline" image), but I don't know if
that type of marker applies in Groups.io messages.
 
Shal
 
FYI, HTML is the name for the language (coding) used to represent
formatted messages. When you specify a font size, or color, or the use
of bold or italic, or insert an image into a message, the detailed
description of what you want your message to look like is written down
in HTML code, and that code is sent in your email message.
 
 
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Re: Message History

Tommy Meehan
 

The time lag in recording message counts seems to have cleared up. Now the monthly number of messages (i.e. 'Message History") on my busy group's home page is updating in real time. I haven't checked any other groups, though.

It's not a big deal but it is an easy way for me to gauge the ebb and flow of traffic on the groups I own. I like having it.

tommy0421


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 10:19 PM, Joe WB9SBD wrote:


I would rather get 100 digests 10 pages long, that [than ?] the guy that removes
everything from a reply, and then makes his reply, and you have no idea at all
what he is talking about.
If someone posts an answer above the quote, you often still have no idea.
People need to learn to quote, and I'm glad that at least digests come with autotrim in groups.io. I would like to see it in individual messages too


groetjes, Ronaldo


Re: Deletion of Attachments

 

Leeni,

Now please explain in non technical terms for me and those who don't
know what HTML means.
Ok, sorry.

When you create an image (or take a photo) and save that on your computer, the image is stored in a file on your computer. So if you paste or insert that image into your email message body, for it to appear on when recipient opens your message that file must somehow be conveyed to the recipient's computer (or mobile device).

Most commonly this happens by your email interface reading the image file and attaching it to your message, and also inserting into your message body a special marker that in effect says "display that attachment here".

This is why the images inserted in your messages got swept up in the deletion of attachments - the system treated those image files as ordinary attachments.

All I know is when I am in gmail and others are in their email
provider emails, they select what looks like a postage stamp that says
insert photo or insert image and then select an image to be placed in
the body of the email. You mean those are considered attachments?
Yes. In almost all cases.

I think if you drag and drop an image from a web site into your email message you might end up with a slightly different type of image marker in your email body, one that says "display the image from that web site here" (a "remote" image). Most receiving email interfaces will block such images unless the user opts to allow it (as a privacy matter).

I had also mentioned another type of image marker that says "display the following encoded image here" (an "inline" image), but I don't know if that type of marker applies in Groups.io messages.

Shal

FYI, HTML is the name for the language (coding) used to represent formatted messages. When you specify a font size, or color, or the use of bold or italic, or insert an image into a message, the detailed description of what you want your message to look like is written down in HTML code, and that code is sent in your email message.


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Re: Direct adding members: What happens if email is already in group?

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Pam Holland wrote:

Question is: what happens if I try to direct add an email that is already in
the group? Will it reject (my hope) or will the recipient get the direct add
email (which would create confusion)?
IIRC the person whose address already is subscribed won't even get an e-mail.

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 16:42, Laurence Marks wrote:
Shal wrote:
But at least pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't resist that).
Glenn Glazer wrote:

LOL, an ASCII character is eight bytes and in the transcribing industry, a word is generally five characters, so the break even point is at 39.0625Mb. ;)

Around here an ASCII character is eight *bits* or 1 byte. A thousand 5-character words separated by spaces is 1000 * 6 equals 6000 bytes. You can do logos and simple line drawings in 6KB but not much else.

(Ignoring the fact that US-ASCII is only defined for 0-127 and sometimes has been represented with 7 bits, not 8.)

Larry

Oops, yes, off by a factor of eight.

Best,

Glenn

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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 16:35, Laurence Marks wrote:
Glenn Glazer wrote:
2) While it is true that HTML encoding makes the size of the message larger than plain text, the difference is vanishingly small compared to a single image or attachment, which is orders of magnitude larger than the difference. When all is said and done, HTML is still text, still ASCII characters. <bold>foo</bold>  adds the cost of exactly 13 characters over just typing the word 'foo'. And, as Chris points out, overquoting is also a huge consumer of bandwidth, much greater (especially for long threads) than the number of characters used for HTML tags.

Glenn, the tag was <b>, not <bold>. That adds 7 characters, not 13.

Underline and Italic are <i> and <u> still but <b> was deprecated and replaced by <strong> because the purists decided that it should denote intent, not appearance. That gets it up to 15 characters. However, the browser creators don't want to break on old web pages so both are still supported.

I still use <b> for convenience but the nanny-state editor in Drupal changes it to <strong> when I save.

Larry

I agree, but I am not sure that the difference between 7 and 13 changes the point.

Best,

Glenn

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Re: duplicate maillist

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 05:43 PM, Patricia Kennedy Max wrote:
How do deal with someone creating a mail list that is a duplicate of one that I created?
There's nothing in the Terms of Service to prevent someone from creating a group that serves the same purpose as yours.  They can't use the same name, but a variation of it is always available.  People that join the groups will determine which they prefer.  I've seen this happen several times over the years, both here and on YG.  Quite often, the copycat group doesn't go anywhere after being started by someone that wasn't happy with how the original group worked.  Sometimes they both flourish because of the different styles.

Duane
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