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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 10:19 PM, Joe WB9SBD wrote:


I would rather get 100 digests 10 pages long, that [than ?] the guy that removes
everything from a reply, and then makes his reply, and you have no idea at all
what he is talking about.
If someone posts an answer above the quote, you often still have no idea.
People need to learn to quote, and I'm glad that at least digests come with autotrim in groups.io. I would like to see it in individual messages too


groetjes, Ronaldo

Re: Deletion of Attachments

 

Leeni,

Now please explain in non technical terms for me and those who don't
know what HTML means.
Ok, sorry.

When you create an image (or take a photo) and save that on your computer, the image is stored in a file on your computer. So if you paste or insert that image into your email message body, for it to appear on when recipient opens your message that file must somehow be conveyed to the recipient's computer (or mobile device).

Most commonly this happens by your email interface reading the image file and attaching it to your message, and also inserting into your message body a special marker that in effect says "display that attachment here".

This is why the images inserted in your messages got swept up in the deletion of attachments - the system treated those image files as ordinary attachments.

All I know is when I am in gmail and others are in their email
provider emails, they select what looks like a postage stamp that says
insert photo or insert image and then select an image to be placed in
the body of the email. You mean those are considered attachments?
Yes. In almost all cases.

I think if you drag and drop an image from a web site into your email message you might end up with a slightly different type of image marker in your email body, one that says "display the image from that web site here" (a "remote" image). Most receiving email interfaces will block such images unless the user opts to allow it (as a privacy matter).

I had also mentioned another type of image marker that says "display the following encoded image here" (an "inline" image), but I don't know if that type of marker applies in Groups.io messages.

Shal

FYI, HTML is the name for the language (coding) used to represent formatted messages. When you specify a font size, or color, or the use of bold or italic, or insert an image into a message, the detailed description of what you want your message to look like is written down in HTML code, and that code is sent in your email message.


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Re: Direct adding members: What happens if email is already in group?

ro-esp
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 07:11 PM, Pam Holland wrote:

Question is: what happens if I try to direct add an email that is already in
the group? Will it reject (my hope) or will the recipient get the direct add
email (which would create confusion)?
IIRC the person whose address already is subscribed won't even get an e-mail.

groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 16:42, Laurence Marks wrote:
Shal wrote:
But at least pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't resist that).
Glenn Glazer wrote:

LOL, an ASCII character is eight bytes and in the transcribing industry, a word is generally five characters, so the break even point is at 39.0625Mb. ;)

Around here an ASCII character is eight *bits* or 1 byte. A thousand 5-character words separated by spaces is 1000 * 6 equals 6000 bytes. You can do logos and simple line drawings in 6KB but not much else.

(Ignoring the fact that US-ASCII is only defined for 0-127 and sometimes has been represented with 7 bits, not 8.)

Larry

Oops, yes, off by a factor of eight.

Best,

Glenn

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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 16:35, Laurence Marks wrote:
Glenn Glazer wrote:
2) While it is true that HTML encoding makes the size of the message larger than plain text, the difference is vanishingly small compared to a single image or attachment, which is orders of magnitude larger than the difference. When all is said and done, HTML is still text, still ASCII characters. <bold>foo</bold>  adds the cost of exactly 13 characters over just typing the word 'foo'. And, as Chris points out, overquoting is also a huge consumer of bandwidth, much greater (especially for long threads) than the number of characters used for HTML tags.

Glenn, the tag was <b>, not <bold>. That adds 7 characters, not 13.

Underline and Italic are <i> and <u> still but <b> was deprecated and replaced by <strong> because the purists decided that it should denote intent, not appearance. That gets it up to 15 characters. However, the browser creators don't want to break on old web pages so both are still supported.

I still use <b> for convenience but the nanny-state editor in Drupal changes it to <strong> when I save.

Larry

I agree, but I am not sure that the difference between 7 and 13 changes the point.

Best,

Glenn

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Re: duplicate maillist

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 05:43 PM, Patricia Kennedy Max wrote:
How do deal with someone creating a mail list that is a duplicate of one that I created?
There's nothing in the Terms of Service to prevent someone from creating a group that serves the same purpose as yours.  They can't use the same name, but a variation of it is always available.  People that join the groups will determine which they prefer.  I've seen this happen several times over the years, both here and on YG.  Quite often, the copycat group doesn't go anywhere after being started by someone that wasn't happy with how the original group worked.  Sometimes they both flourish because of the different styles.

Duane
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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Laurence Marks
 

Shal wrote:
But at least pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't resist that).
Glenn Glazer wrote:

LOL, an ASCII character is eight bytes and in the transcribing industry, a word is generally five characters, so the break even point is at 39.0625Mb. ;)

Around here an ASCII character is eight *bits* or 1 byte. A thousand 5-character words separated by spaces is 1000 * 6 equals 6000 bytes. You can do logos and simple line drawings in 6KB but not much else.

(Ignoring the fact that US-ASCII is only defined for 0-127 and sometimes has been represented with 7 bits, not 8.)

Larry

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Laurence Marks
 

Glenn Glazer wrote:
2) While it is true that HTML encoding makes the size of the message larger than plain text, the difference is vanishingly small compared to a single image or attachment, which is orders of magnitude larger than the difference. When all is said and done, HTML is still text, still ASCII characters. <bold>foo</bold>  adds the cost of exactly 13 characters over just typing the word 'foo'. And, as Chris points out, overquoting is also a huge consumer of bandwidth, much greater (especially for long threads) than the number of characters used for HTML tags.

Glenn, the tag was <b>, not <bold>. That adds 7 characters, not 13.

Underline and Italic are <i> and <u> still but <b> was deprecated and replaced by <strong> because the purists decided that it should denote intent, not appearance. That gets it up to 15 characters. However, the browser creators don't want to break on old web pages so both are still supported.

I still use <b> for convenience but the nanny-state editor in Drupal changes it to <strong> when I save.

Larry

duplicate maillist

Patricia Kennedy Max <pam@...>
 

Hello,

How do deal with someone creating a mail list that is a duplicate of one that I created?

Thank you.
Patricia Kennedy Max

Re: <enter> vs <shift><enter>

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 01:13 PM, Bob Schrempp wrote:
On the mentioned wiki page, I found out about how the <enter> key works. I have been in computer tech support for over three decades. I just learned that in message composition the <enter> key is a new line and <shift><enter> is a new paragraph, this is backwards to what seems to be the industry standard for an editor. In fact, the Group.io Wiki is the "standard" way <enter> is a new paragraph and <shift><enter> is a new line (line feed). 
I get caught by this occasionally, too...but when one doesn't give me what I want, I just back up and try the other.

Is there a reason behind the "backwards" use of  <enter> vs <shift><enter> in the message composition?
Not that I can recall. The editor uses the tinymce 4.6 javascript library, so a search of the docs might turn up something: https://www.tiny.cloud/docs/

Bruce 

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...>
 

Now please explain in non technical terms for me and those who don't know what HTML means.
 
All I know is when I am in gmail and others are in their email provider emails, they select what looks like a postage stamp that says insert photo or insert image and then select an image to be placed in the body of the email. You mean those are considered attachments?  
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 02/16/20 15:20:15
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 19:20:06 -0000, Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...> wrote:

What do you mean not truly embedded?

What does everyone mean by "truly embedded"?

They were inserted in the body of the email along with added attachments.

AFAIK there is no means by which an image can be embedded within the HTML body of an email. It may be displayed there in among the message text but the HTML body part just contains an image link to an attachment.

Malcolm.

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Malcolm Austen <malcolm.austen@...>
 

Re: Deletion of Attachments

 

Malcolm,

What does everyone mean by "truly embedded"?
Various things, apparently.

I think Duane was trying to make a distinction between images whose file is carried inline in the HTML (data: protocol) and those where the image file is carried as an attachment (cid: protocol). There is yet a third type, where the image file is "remote" - hosted somewhere on the internet rather than in the message body (http: protocol).

AFAIK there is no means by which an image can be embedded within the
HTML body of an email.
There is. The src parameter to the <img> element can be data: - which places an encoded copy of the image file inline within <img> element.

But I rarely see that in practice, I'm not sure that many email interfaces support it. The standard practice has been to use cid: (Content ID - an attachment) for the image file.

I may have to go test this again, but I think I saw once that Groups.io converts inbound data: images to cid: in the messages outbound to members, and also for the purpose of displaying them on site. This was likely done so that the use of data: wouldn't constitute a loophole in the storage allocation scheme.

It may be displayed there in among the message text but the HTML body
part just contains an image link to an attachment.
Yes, and it is that - the use of an <img> element in the message body that I think most people mean when they use the word "embedded" - regardless of where the actual image data file is located (inline, attached, or remote).

Shal


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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Malcolm Austen
 

On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 19:20:06 -0000, Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...> wrote:

What do you mean not truly embedded?

What does everyone mean by "truly embedded"?

They were inserted in the body of the email along with added attachments.

AFAIK there is no means by which an image can be embedded within the HTML body of an email. It may be displayed there in among the message text but the HTML body part just contains an image link to an attachment.

Malcolm.

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Malcolm Austen <malcolm.austen@...>

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Joe WB9SBD
 

I would rather get 100 digests 10 pages long, that the guy that removes everything from a reply, and then makes his reply, and you have no idea at all what he is talking about.

Joe WB9SBD


On 2/16/2020 1:55 PM, Nivard Ovington wrote:
Its far less of a problem in Groups.io than it was under Rootsweb/Mailman thats for sure

Repeated posting of the whole digest was a regular occurrence

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)


Does it waste as much bandwidth as over - quoting? That is a persistent problem with many group members. (I am not necessarily referrring to GMF, but it /is/ a problem.)

Chris 

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 12:15, Shal Farley wrote:
But at least pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't resist that).

LOL, an ASCII character is eight bytes and in the transcribing industry, a word is generally five characters, so the break even point is at 39.0625Mb. ;)

I think the bottom line is that, like many things, plain versus HTML has become largely a matter of personal preference, on both the sending and receiving ends. One size doesn't fit all, and fortunately Groups.io doesn't force one or the other on any group.

Amen.

Best,

Glenn

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

 

Glenn,

1) Depending on one's group settings, email is by default on groups.io
sent as multipart/alternative ... That means that if one was using
text/plain to reduce bandwidth, that's not going to work for those
groups.
Specifically, that would be groups which have chosen the Force HTML option. In other groups an incoming message with only a text/plain body goes out that way.

Gmail, in both the web interface and mobile app, will send a text/plain body (no multipart) if you don't include any formatting as you compose your message (if you are composing a reply, the quoted original message may override this if it has formatting).

2) While it is true that HTML encoding makes the size of the message
larger than plain text, the difference is vanishingly small compared
to a single image or attachment, ...
Perhaps not always vanishingly (I'm thinking of those email clients that include a bulky CSS header in each outbound formatted message) but in general I concur that images and other files use more space. But at least pictures are generally recognized as worth a thousand words (grin, I couldn't resist that).

I'll do a mea-culpa for the people on limited / metered connections. Though I tend to default to plain text messages, I don't hesitate to switch to HTML when that seems to better suit my content.

I think the bottom line is that, like many things, plain versus HTML has become largely a matter of personal preference, on both the sending and receiving ends. One size doesn't fit all, and fortunately Groups.io doesn't force one or the other on any group.

Shal


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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 11:55, Shal Farley wrote:

In the present day Glenn is more correct.

Yes, to be clear I was speaking in the present tense. The bad old days, were, as Shal notes, bad.

Best,

Glenn
Who remembers using Eudora! And PINE!

[political sig trimmed by moderator]

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Nivard Ovington
 

Its far less of a problem in Groups.io than it was under Rootsweb/Mailman thats for sure

Repeated posting of the whole digest was a regular occurrence

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Does it waste as much bandwidth as over - quoting? That is a persistent problem with many group members. (I am not necessarily referrring to GMF, but it /is/ a problem.)
Chris

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

 

Jim,

BTW, I seem to remember I copied the sig file on the end of this
messsage from Shal, who owns this group.
Wow, that's an oldie - but still a goodie.

At the time I first adopted it HTML-based malware was running rampant in email, and specifically some Yahoo Groups. HTML was relatively new, and most email clients passed the buffer of HTML code to Windows' render function to put in on screen.

That built-in render turned out to have a lot of vulnerabilities, and contrary to Glenn's assertion, no click or other action on the user's part was necessary - merely displaying the message body was sufficient. I was using Eudora back then, and one of its benefits was that it had an option to use its own built-in HTML render instead of Microsoft's. Eudora's render only implemented a basic subset of HTML, avoiding the tags that were then being exploited. So fancier messages would get ugly, but it sufficed for simple emphasis types of formatting.

In the present day Glenn is more correct. Browsers and email clients have (largely, entirely?) opted to use their own HTML rendering code and have strengthened them tremendously against abuse. It has been ages since I've heard even a rumor of a no-click-required exploit delivered by an HTML message body.

Another delve into history is RFC 1896, an early attempt to head off the domination of HTML as the only type of rich text formatting for email message bodies. Alas, it has been largely ignored, so far as I can tell.
https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1896

Shal





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Re: How do YOU choose Moderators?

BMaverick
 

Chuck,

Your group sounds sort of like mine and the age battle.  Then there are the kids who had inherited the farm equipment or bought from a previous member who passed away.  BUT, they are starting out new, raising a family and have day jobs.

The best folks to pick to moderate are wise enough not to get picked or will turn it down.

My membership community resides on 4 continents too. 

Making the move from YG to GIO, the membership numbers adjusted like a landslide.  Sure, we have history, yet the participants are now up to 35 years older from the startup.  The re-enlisted is a mix-bag. 

So, it would require some time, possible a year before prompting folks to step up.