Date   

Re: Bouncing posts from members using COX

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 12:13 PM, David Tuma wrote:
experiencing bouncing posts sent to them.  They have Cox as their ISP
If you haven't already, take a look at https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Dealing-with-Bouncing and https://groups.io/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Example-Bounce-Probe.  If you're sure the notification email is being accepted by Cox, it may be that it's being diverted by them to the spam folder.  (There are even a few services that accept the email, then toss it in the bit bucket.)  Cox is one of the services that just decide to bounce emails from GIO now and then.  It usually clears up in a couple of days, after enough people complain to them.

Duane
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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni
 

That is not true.
Attachments as well as the embedded images have been removed.
 
Also the archives are not correct in they way they are being labeled if someone was going to save from the archives. 
 
Labeled 0 instead of maybe Poodle Dog
Labeled 1 instead of maybe Tabby Cat
Labeled 2 instead of Hippy Car
Labeled 3 instead of Thank You Valentine 
 
And so on and so on. If all 4 of those images are in the archives they would be labeled starting with 0 up to 4
If each one was in a separate email, they all would be labeled 0
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Duane
Date: 2/16/2020 12:26:59 PM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM, Leeni wrote:
But if the archives are going to be there, then they should be correct.
As far as the site is concerned, they're correct.  No embedded images are removed, only old attachments.

Duane
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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

 

First, I'm not talking about digest but individual messages, but that probably
isn't important. I have my email client set to read all emails, from whatever
source, in plain text. The text is what matters. The main reason for not
reading in HTML is that it can carry malware and I don't want my computer to be
infected that way. I know that form of infection is less common that it once
was, but it is still possible. Others have also pointed out the difficulty of
reading the fonts and colours some people choose. HTML in nearly all cases
simply wastes bandwidth as again others have pointed out, which for people on
slow connections is still of some importance, so I always send in plain text as
well.

BTW, I seem to remember I copied the sig file on the end of this messsage from
Shal, who owns this group.

Jim

On 15 Feb 2020 at 15:10, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:

Since those here are presumably group "management" of some sort, WHY would
you not want the HTML version of digest for at least THIS forum? Is it longer,
or ???. Seems to me like going to a play blindfolded or watching a color movie
in black and white.

WRB
--
//\\ Plain Text Campaign | Remember -
\\// No HTML/RTF in email | You can't get malware from plain text!
XX No Word docs in email | No one has ever said "I can't read that
//\\ Respect open standards | plain text email you sent."


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

David Grimm
 

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 04:32 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:
WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest for at least THIS forum?
Back to the original question. So after reading this question, I decided to see what I might be missing by selecting Plain Digest. After changing to Full Featured Digest, I found out why I prefer the Plain Digest: I couldn't read the Full Featured Digest due mostly to lines scrolling off the visible page when using any of three different email clients, both Android and Windows based. Yes, I got fancy colors and different fonts, but I also had to go to a web-browser and go through each thread to see what I couldn't in the digest. Which defeats totally the purpose for which I get the digest by email. 

Yes, I probably could go in and hack in different settings for my email clients, but it is much easier as long as I have logged in here, to just change my subscription back to Plain Digest, thank you very much.

Dave


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/16/2020 10:06, Steve Hayes wrote:
On 16 Feb 2020 at 8:59, Glenn Glazer wrote:

The inventions of text formatting such as italics and underlining long predate
HTML and are used for technical language requirements (such as story and book
titles), not "embellishment or obscuration [sic]". From a linguist
perspective, these font formats are no different than other "visual tricks"
like punctuation, line spacing and so on, none of which existing in early
English.
And if you really and that, the convention is to indicate _italics_ by 
underlining and *bold* with asterisks, and if you export it to and MS word 
document, it will convert those into the printable fonts for you. 

You might object that exporting and converting is too much schlep, but so is 
exporting to an HTML stripper. 


I don't think that convention is universal, since I see your italics as underlined:



I don't think the shlep is necessary. In the sample above, I italicized italics and underlined underlining and yet your MUA/browser stripped the formatting off cleanly.

Best,

Glenn

--
PG&E Delenda Est


Re: Deletion of Attachments

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM, Leeni wrote:
But if the archives are going to be there, then they should be correct.
As far as the site is concerned, they're correct.  No embedded images are removed, only old attachments.

Duane
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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Steve Hayes
 

On 16 Feb 2020 at 8:59, Glenn Glazer wrote:

The inventions of text formatting such as italics and underlining long predate
HTML and are used for technical language requirements (such as story and book
titles), not "embellishment or obscuration [sic]". From a linguist
perspective, these font formats are no different than other "visual tricks"
like punctuation, line spacing and so on, none of which existing in early
English.
And if you really and that, the convention is to indicate _italics_ by
underlining and *bold* with asterisks, and if you export it to and MS word
document, it will convert those into the printable fonts for you.

You might object that exporting and converting is too much schlep, but so is
exporting to an HTML stripper.

--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
Fax: 086-548-2525


<enter> vs <shift><enter>

Bob Schrempp
 

I found this group by accident because someone pointed me to the "Message Composition Tips and Tricks" page in the Wiki. This group and the Wiki is a GREAT resource. I will be using some of this data to create a Sticking message in most of my groups to help people learn how to use Groups.io.

On the mentioned wiki page, I found out about how the <enter> key works. I have been in computer tech support for over three decades. I just learned that in message composition the <enter> key is a new line and <shift><enter> is a new paragraph, this is backwards to what seems to be the industry standard for an editor. In fact, the Group.io Wiki is the "standard" way <enter> is a new paragraph and <shift><enter> is a new line (line feed). 

Is there a reason behind the "backwards" use of  <enter> vs <shift><enter> in the message composition?

 

 

Bob Schrempp


Bouncing posts from members using COX

David Tuma
 

I have a couple of members who have been experiencing bouncing posts sent to them.  They have Cox as their ISP.  Anyone else having this problem?  Solution?  At least one says he is not getting the bounce notification from Groups.io even though the email activity shows he is getting it.

Also, how can I get an example of the Groups.io bounce message and instructions so I can alert my members.

Thank you.
David


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Laurence Marks
 

On 2/15/2020 21:42, D R Stinson wrote:
The fact is, when you use HTML, you force the reader to use the size, color and font of what you've written. 
Actually it's not only incorrect, but precisely the result of the unfortunate evolution I was describing. Graphic designers took over the original tool and abused it so "My page looks better than the other guy's." There are obvious commercial reasons why this happened.

You can still create web pages which are completely non-specific as regard to fonts and colors. Wake Interfaith Disaster Team is a website I originally created in 2011 using raw HTML, restricted to HTML 1 and 2. There are no specifications of fonts, column widths, etc. The browser defaults are used throughout. A surprise benefit of this is that it works reasonably on phones and tablets with no changes. Another is REALLY FAST page loading.

(Yes, these pages are a little ugly--I had to bang them out late at night while managing disaster recovery as a volunteer during the day. And the colors are awful, they tell me. I'm colorblind and pick colors which great mutual discrimination for me.I can name some websites where the colors for visited and unvisited links appear so similar that I cannot distinguish them.)

I had done some work on projects for people with disabilities and learned that the more you "make things pretty" the more you break screen readers, people with impaired color vision, and others.

Larry


Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni
 

Although they shouldn't log in to view messages via the archives, some do.
 
Why it matters is.......... Some members aren't on individual mail.
Some may view the mail when it gets sent to them Digest form.
 
True, that would be a perfect world to have a setting for an archive less group.
But if the archives are going to be there, then they should be correct.
 
Example which I have touched on before is in the archives the images are embedded or inserted do not retain the original name the creator of those images gave them. They are labeled
0 for the first inserted image
1for the 2nd
2 for the 3rd if they are sent in one email.
If only 1 image was inserted in lets say 5 emails, each will have the label 0. 
So when someone views these images via the archives that is what the tag will say when they save them. That is why we are an email based group and the archives are no use to us.
 
Leeni
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 2/16/2020 11:02:51 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Leeni wrote:
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
Leeni -- I am struggling to understand the problem. If your group is email-only, and people never log in and view the message archive, then what difference does it make whether these embedded images are saved as attachments or embedded?

Seems to me that the real problem is you still don't have what you really want...a setting that creates an archive-less group. Your objectives in beta will be better served by asking for that, as opposed to a setting that allows people to circumvent a recent bugfix.

Regards,
Bruce
 


Direct adding members: What happens if email is already in group?

Pam Holland <pam@...>
 

I have a list of people that I am moving from a yahoo group to our new subgroup on Groups.io. Some of the emails are already in the Groups.io main. Others are not. Plan is to let members know via Yahoo that we are moving the group over to a Groups.io subgroup.

I would like to direct add the whole group, notwithstanding that some are already in the group (to avoid the time to go through the list one by one).

Question is: what happens if I try to direct add an email that is already in the group? Will it reject (my hope) or will the recipient get the direct add email (which would create confusion)?

Thanks!

Pam


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/15/2020 21:42, D R Stinson wrote:
WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest for
at least THIS forum?  Is it longer, or ???.  Seems to me
like going to a play blindfolded or watching a color movie
in black and white.
The fact is, when you use HTML, you force the reader to use the size, color and font of what you've written. 

This statement is not true. Many HTML readers, including MUAs like Thunderbird which I use, have a setting which permits the reader to override the body style of the message.

One might also say that what you write should be clear enough to not need visual embellishment or obscuration. If you need to denote ranking of quoted text, the old 'greater than' symbol or indenting still works. The written language is a device that functions without regard to visual tricks. 
The inventions of text formatting such as italics and underlining long predate HTML and are used for technical language requirements (such as story and book titles), not "embellishment or obscuration [sic]". From a linguist perspective, these font formats are no different than other "visual tricks" like punctuation, line spacing and so on, none of which existing in early English.

I am glad there is a choice and those that wants one or the other can have what they want. But I also think choice is best when made as an informed decision.

Best,

Glenn


Re: Deletion of Attachments

Ken Cameron
 

From my view, it would seem that the link where the attachment used to be
should get a new link or replacement saying 'attachment removed' as the best
way to preserve the rest of the content. It seems however that some mailers
nest things in some ways that confused the tool removing the attachment and
it removed the rest of the content. That would be a bug in my view.

If there is a chance they might improve the tool and restore the missing
parts, on Mark knows.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Darlene <dvhhemail.darlene@...>
 

Thank you Larry for this history.  I have been looking for a summary like this.  
Darlene


Re: Deletion of Attachments

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Leeni wrote:
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
Leeni -- I am struggling to understand the problem. If your group is email-only, and people never log in and view the message archive, then what difference does it make whether these embedded images are saved as attachments or embedded?

Seems to me that the real problem is you still don't have what you really want...a setting that creates an archive-less group. Your objectives in beta will be better served by asking for that, as opposed to a setting that allows people to circumvent a recent bugfix.

Regards,
Bruce


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 10:32 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:


WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest
I'm not sure it applies to groups.io, but sometimes I get newsletters with fancy layout, and I have to literally wait for minutes before I can move on to the next message. Choosing plain-text prevents this.


groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo


Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

 

> I won't speak for Dano, but I don't think it would make much
> difference to me. Plain text is simple, easy to read, and takes
> less storage space (since it doesn't have all those 'hidden'
> codes.) All the bells and whistles in the world won't make
> make an idea more clear if the proper words aren't there.
>
> Duane
 
I think you've put my thoughts quite succinctly, Duane. Thank you.
It might be worth noting that I write this as a person who has been doing graphic design for better than four decades.
 
> I wonder if users like Duane and Dano would be happy with
> the original HTML …
 
Laurence, that's pretty much what "Normalized HTML" in groups.io is. I have that set in a couple of my groups.
 
Dano
 


Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni
 

The deletions don't really matter to me.
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
 
If an email is empty why can't the whole email be deleted when the attachments and embedded images are removed. 
 
It is bothersome that the empty emails are there with just the person's name who sent it in.
 
Leeni
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Duane
Date: 2/16/2020 9:42:39 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Leeni wrote:
Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments.
That's not correct. A truly embedded image isn't deleted, only an attachment.  The underlying problem is the email program/client being used to compose the message.  If I'm guessing correctly, this is Incredimail.  It doesn't embed images, it embeds code referring to the attached images and how they're displayed.

Duane
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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni
 

The embedded or inserted images have also been deleted.
Every email from the point of attachments being deleted except where there was just text has been removed. They are now all empty mail with just the sender's name showing. 
 
What we do is put a sample in the body of the email and then attach the rest.
For example it is a tag set with different sayings on it.
We may put the Hello tag in the body and then all the other extra sayings as attachments.
 
The inserted sample also was removed.
 
No, it isn't necessarily Incredimail. The members of the group don't use Incredimail. They insert the images from their own email accounts directly.
 
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Duane
Date: 2/16/2020 9:42:39 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Leeni wrote:
Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments.
That's not correct. A truly embedded image isn't deleted, only an attachment.  The underlying problem is the email program/client being used to compose the message.  If I'm guessing correctly, this is Incredimail.  It doesn't embed images, it embeds code referring to the attached images and how they're displayed.

Duane
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