Date   
Bouncing posts from members using COX

David Tuma
 

I have a couple of members who have been experiencing bouncing posts sent to them.  They have Cox as their ISP.  Anyone else having this problem?  Solution?  At least one says he is not getting the bounce notification from Groups.io even though the email activity shows he is getting it.

Also, how can I get an example of the Groups.io bounce message and instructions so I can alert my members.

Thank you.
David

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Laurence Marks
 

On 2/15/2020 21:42, D R Stinson wrote:
The fact is, when you use HTML, you force the reader to use the size, color and font of what you've written. 
Actually it's not only incorrect, but precisely the result of the unfortunate evolution I was describing. Graphic designers took over the original tool and abused it so "My page looks better than the other guy's." There are obvious commercial reasons why this happened.

You can still create web pages which are completely non-specific as regard to fonts and colors. Wake Interfaith Disaster Team is a website I originally created in 2011 using raw HTML, restricted to HTML 1 and 2. There are no specifications of fonts, column widths, etc. The browser defaults are used throughout. A surprise benefit of this is that it works reasonably on phones and tablets with no changes. Another is REALLY FAST page loading.

(Yes, these pages are a little ugly--I had to bang them out late at night while managing disaster recovery as a volunteer during the day. And the colors are awful, they tell me. I'm colorblind and pick colors which great mutual discrimination for me.I can name some websites where the colors for visited and unvisited links appear so similar that I cannot distinguish them.)

I had done some work on projects for people with disabilities and learned that the more you "make things pretty" the more you break screen readers, people with impaired color vision, and others.

Larry

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...>
 

Although they shouldn't log in to view messages via the archives, some do.
 
Why it matters is.......... Some members aren't on individual mail.
Some may view the mail when it gets sent to them Digest form.
 
True, that would be a perfect world to have a setting for an archive less group.
But if the archives are going to be there, then they should be correct.
 
Example which I have touched on before is in the archives the images are embedded or inserted do not retain the original name the creator of those images gave them. They are labeled
0 for the first inserted image
1for the 2nd
2 for the 3rd if they are sent in one email.
If only 1 image was inserted in lets say 5 emails, each will have the label 0. 
So when someone views these images via the archives that is what the tag will say when they save them. That is why we are an email based group and the archives are no use to us.
 
Leeni
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 2/16/2020 11:02:51 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Leeni wrote:
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
Leeni -- I am struggling to understand the problem. If your group is email-only, and people never log in and view the message archive, then what difference does it make whether these embedded images are saved as attachments or embedded?

Seems to me that the real problem is you still don't have what you really want...a setting that creates an archive-less group. Your objectives in beta will be better served by asking for that, as opposed to a setting that allows people to circumvent a recent bugfix.

Regards,
Bruce
 

Direct adding members: What happens if email is already in group?

Pam Holland <pam@...>
 

I have a list of people that I am moving from a yahoo group to our new subgroup on Groups.io. Some of the emails are already in the Groups.io main. Others are not. Plan is to let members know via Yahoo that we are moving the group over to a Groups.io subgroup.

I would like to direct add the whole group, notwithstanding that some are already in the group (to avoid the time to go through the list one by one).

Question is: what happens if I try to direct add an email that is already in the group? Will it reject (my hope) or will the recipient get the direct add email (which would create confusion)?

Thanks!

Pam

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Glenn Glazer
 

On 2/15/2020 21:42, D R Stinson wrote:
WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest for
at least THIS forum?  Is it longer, or ???.  Seems to me
like going to a play blindfolded or watching a color movie
in black and white.
The fact is, when you use HTML, you force the reader to use the size, color and font of what you've written. 

This statement is not true. Many HTML readers, including MUAs like Thunderbird which I use, have a setting which permits the reader to override the body style of the message.

One might also say that what you write should be clear enough to not need visual embellishment or obscuration. If you need to denote ranking of quoted text, the old 'greater than' symbol or indenting still works. The written language is a device that functions without regard to visual tricks. 
The inventions of text formatting such as italics and underlining long predate HTML and are used for technical language requirements (such as story and book titles), not "embellishment or obscuration [sic]". From a linguist perspective, these font formats are no different than other "visual tricks" like punctuation, line spacing and so on, none of which existing in early English.

I am glad there is a choice and those that wants one or the other can have what they want. But I also think choice is best when made as an informed decision.

Best,

Glenn

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Ken Cameron
 

From my view, it would seem that the link where the attachment used to be
should get a new link or replacement saying 'attachment removed' as the best
way to preserve the rest of the content. It seems however that some mailers
nest things in some ways that confused the tool removing the attachment and
it removed the rest of the content. That would be a bug in my view.

If there is a chance they might improve the tool and restore the missing
parts, on Mark knows.

-Ken Cameron, Member JMRI Dev Team

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Darlene <dvhhemail.darlene@...>
 

Thank you Larry for this history.  I have been looking for a summary like this.  
Darlene

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Bruce Bowman
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM, Leeni wrote:
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
Leeni -- I am struggling to understand the problem. If your group is email-only, and people never log in and view the message archive, then what difference does it make whether these embedded images are saved as attachments or embedded?

Seems to me that the real problem is you still don't have what you really want...a setting that creates an archive-less group. Your objectives in beta will be better served by asking for that, as opposed to a setting that allows people to circumvent a recent bugfix.

Regards,
Bruce

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

ro-esp
 

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 10:32 PM, txercoupemuseum.org wrote:


WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest
I'm not sure it applies to groups.io, but sometimes I get newsletters with fancy layout, and I have to literally wait for minutes before I can move on to the next message. Choosing plain-text prevents this.


groetjes/ĝis, Ronaldo

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

 

> I won't speak for Dano, but I don't think it would make much
> difference to me. Plain text is simple, easy to read, and takes
> less storage space (since it doesn't have all those 'hidden'
> codes.) All the bells and whistles in the world won't make
> make an idea more clear if the proper words aren't there.
>
> Duane
 
I think you've put my thoughts quite succinctly, Duane. Thank you.
It might be worth noting that I write this as a person who has been doing graphic design for better than four decades.
 
> I wonder if users like Duane and Dano would be happy with
> the original HTML …
 
Laurence, that's pretty much what "Normalized HTML" in groups.io is. I have that set in a couple of my groups.
 
Dano
 

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...>
 

The deletions don't really matter to me.
It is not that the inserted images are gone along with the attachments, as we are an email based group and messages should be read via email and not the archives.  
The concern is there are 1000's of empty emails in the archives that don't need to be there. Deleting them 1 by one is a cumbersome task.
 
If an email is empty why can't the whole email be deleted when the attachments and embedded images are removed. 
 
It is bothersome that the empty emails are there with just the person's name who sent it in.
 
Leeni
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Duane
Date: 2/16/2020 9:42:39 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Leeni wrote:
Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments.
That's not correct. A truly embedded image isn't deleted, only an attachment.  The underlying problem is the email program/client being used to compose the message.  If I'm guessing correctly, this is Incredimail.  It doesn't embed images, it embeds code referring to the attached images and how they're displayed.

Duane
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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...>
 

The embedded or inserted images have also been deleted.
Every email from the point of attachments being deleted except where there was just text has been removed. They are now all empty mail with just the sender's name showing. 
 
What we do is put a sample in the body of the email and then attach the rest.
For example it is a tag set with different sayings on it.
We may put the Hello tag in the body and then all the other extra sayings as attachments.
 
The inserted sample also was removed.
 
No, it isn't necessarily Incredimail. The members of the group don't use Incredimail. They insert the images from their own email accounts directly.
 
 
 
 
 
 

-------Original Message-------
 
From: Duane
Date: 2/16/2020 9:42:39 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] Deletion of Attachments
 
On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Leeni wrote:
Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments.
That's not correct. A truly embedded image isn't deleted, only an attachment.  The underlying problem is the email program/client being used to compose the message.  If I'm guessing correctly, this is Incredimail.  It doesn't embed images, it embeds code referring to the attached images and how they're displayed.

Duane
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Re: Can moderators reduce joined their own moderator settings?

Bill Hazel
 

I figured it out and it is because I wasn't paying close enough attention.
I was listed as the Owner, because I Owned a sub-group.
That was my first mistake.
Then I didn't type in "I understand" when I (attempted) to delete the sub-group.
I then tried to quit the group again and still got the message that I am the sole owner
It was at this point I asked the question.
I then went back and tried again and again until I figured it out.
I needed to read the delete group pop-up box completely and type in "I understand", deleting the sub-group.
I was then able to leave the group.
I had to wait until the question was approved to tell how my my sad story ended.
My apologies.

Bill

Re: Deletion of Attachments

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:37 AM, Leeni wrote:
Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments.
That's not correct. A truly embedded image isn't deleted, only an attachment.  The underlying problem is the email program/client being used to compose the message.  If I'm guessing correctly, this is Incredimail.  It doesn't embed images, it embeds code referring to the attached images and how they're displayed.

Duane
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Re: Deletion of Attachments

Leeni <leeniluvsgroups@...>
 

Thanks. I will bring it up in Beta as a suggestion.

Should i word it by saying: The embedded or inserted images are also being removed along with the attachments. Could there be an exemption for referenced images, or perhaps a separate control for them so the inserted or embedded images remain. 

Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Duane
 

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 09:20 AM, Laurence Marks wrote:
I wonder if users like Duane and Dano would be happy with the original HTML, and not the monstrosity it's evolved to.
I won't speak for Dano, but I don't think it would make much difference to me.  Plain text is simple, easy to read, and takes less storage space (since it doesn't have all those 'hidden' codes.)  All the bells and whistles in the world won't make make an idea more clear if the proper words aren't there.

Duane
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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

Laurence Marks
 

I wonder if users like Duane and Dano would be happy with the original HTML, and not the monstrosity it's evolved to.

The original HTML predecessor, SGML, was designed under the premise that the author identified the text objects as what they were: paragraph, Header 1/2/3/4/5, numbered list, unnumbered list, table, table (cell) data, etc. The very few decorators (bold, underline, italic, line-break) were seen as compromises. The user would configure the rendition of each of these to his personal preferences. For example, a person with limited vision might configure everything in a large font, but use different colors for Headers 1/2/3/4/5. A blind person might configure his screen reader for different pauses between different element types, maybe different volume levels or intonations for different headers. He might even configure announcement of certain table tags to ease navigation. This is the original "pure" HTML.

The browser creators got into a feature war and created any number of poorly thought out features. Does anybody remember <marquee>? 

Then the graphic artists, bless their hearts, got involved. They were used to specifying colors, complicated layouts, non-functional things like elegant drop-caps. User configuration went out the window. With the creation of the rococo CSS, creation of simple, clean web pages by directly entering HTML mostly went out the window.

The final nail in the coffin was the evolution caused by embedded editors like the one I am using to type this. Real HTML (and XHTML and XML) requires properly nested tags. If you start underlining and then start italics, you have to turn off the italics before turning off the underlining. But anyone who has ever used "Reveal Codes" in the older word processors knows how hard that is to do when you are in a WYSIWYG environment. When you set the I-Beam pointer in the gap between two characters, and there are two codes (e.g., underline-start and italic-start), you have no control over which of the three potential positions you have selected. If you've ever tried to change the formatting of previously formatted characters in a word processor and it won't change, you will instantly recognize this problem. This led to tags <div> and <span>. They are not required to be nested, but the editing problem persists. The complexity to deal with this leads to huge browser footprints and probably to that curse we all see, memory leaks.

This complexity may explain Duane and Dano's preference for plain text.

Larry

Re: moving a message to a different subgroup

 

Richard,

Can I copy the "orphan" messages into a Word document, start a new
Topic, then post the resultant Word version into the new Topic?
Sure, but why use Word as an intermediary? You could paste the content of the orphan messages directly into the new Topic.

I mention this because Word's formatting isn't completely compatible with the HTML used in email, as interpreted by Groups.io. So you can end up with formatting weirdness when pasting from Word.

Shal


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Re: Deletion of Attachments

 

Leeni,

One of my groups had attachments deleted which was all fine and good.
But it seems that in deleting the attachments, the images that were
inserted in the body of the email were also removed.
Correct.

In email the image files are usually transmitted as attachments to the message, and the HTML message body points to those files as the source of the image.

There are other possibilities, including remote and inline image files, but each has its limitations, and most email interfaces don't make it simple for a member to control how the images are referenced by the message body.

In principle I think Groups.io could distinguish between attached files that are referenced as images in the message body and those that are not. Then there could be an exemption for referenced images, or perhaps a separate control for them. That would have to be brought to beta as a feature suggestion.
https://beta.groups.io/g/main/guidelines

Shal


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Re: Why choose plain text over HTML email?

txercoupemuseum.org
 

All excellent points, Dano.

I never use color, so didn’t realize that might me a problem. Never see it in my groups. I do use the “greater than” and “Less than” denotations. I do indent at times, but also find that at times I’m fighting something in Apple Mail to make it look right.

Best!

WRB

On Feb 15, 2020, at 11:42 PM, D R Stinson <@steeplecab> wrote:

WHY would you not want the HTML version of digest for
at least THIS forum? Is it longer, or ???. Seems to me
like going to a play blindfolded or watching a color movie
in black and white.
For the same reason you want HTML. It's a user preference, and I'm sure it saves space in the archives. More importantly, the reader may not want the distraction of colors or hard-to-read fonts. The font you want to read may be too small for someone's older eyes. Your choice of colored fonts may cause loss of contrast for colorblind users. The fact is, when you use HTML, you force the reader to use the size, color and font of what you've written. This isn't a fits-all world. By using plain text or Normalized HTML, the system defaults to the fonts and colors the recipient has selected for their own displays, which may be much easier for them to read.

One might also say that what you write should be clear enough to not need visual embellishment or obscuration. If you need to denote ranking of quoted text, the old 'greater than' symbol or indenting still works. The written language is a device that functions without regard to visual tricks. If you want a circus poster, you can always attach it as a graphic.

Dano

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