Topics

[GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions

Conrad Cheatham
 

Hi:
  For those loomking for info on the Wadley Southern: I found the summary report from the Valuation done on the WS in the 1917 era. For our across the Pond friends. Our government required railroads to undergo an examination for valuation purposes.
   The W.S. report notes that it had 2,800 ties/mile. 87% of these ties were pine. Most of the rest were cypress with a few oak ties.
   Trestles: There were 136 timber trestles - totalling 6,057 feet long.
     Rail: Rail was 40-60 lb weight dating from 1877-1902. The mainline had 26.4 miles of new rail - 56 & 60 lb. The remainder is laid with re-lay rail, 55-63 lb.
  Ballast: There was a small amount of cinder ballast. Most earthen ballast.
 Road had 8 passenger cars of wood construction. It had 5  locomotives.
    Cotton and corn were the main agricultural crops of the region. Main freight hauled was cotton. lumber, and naval stores. It was noted that the timber had been heavily cut.
    Keep in mind that this is roughly 1917 & the W.S. had been put together in 1906 when the Central purchased the Stillmore Air Line and the Wadley & Mount Vernon Railroads. This is a rough picture of the W.S. from about 1917-18.
   Conrad Cheatham

From: BRIAN
To: GaRRHistory@...
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 9:40 AM
Subject: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
 
Simon, hi

Good to know another Brit has an interest in Georgia`s shortlines,though we could have made it easier for our self`s and modeled them in HO!.

Brian.
(the other Brit!)

--- In mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com, Robert Hanson wrote:
>
> Simon -
>
>
> I second Conrad's welcome. I've been the to the UK twice and was made welcome by the railway enthusiasts there both times when I visited various operating museums (I believe you call them "preserved railways.")
>
>
> Unfortunately, I have no answers to your questions, but perhaps someone on the list has.
>
>
> Again, Welcome Aboard!
>
>
> Bob Hanson
> Loganville, GA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: YAHOO!! Service
> To: GaRRHistory <mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:12 pm
> Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Simon,
> Welcome to the group. Those were interesting lines. Each one has an interesting history. At one time a person could make quite a trip from Louisville to Wadley and thence on south to connect up with other little short lines. No doubt many a salesman (drummer) used the L&W, the Stillmore Air Line, the Wadley & Mt. Vernon, etc to call on many a customer down south.
> Its great to hear that some folks across the Big Pond are interested in some of the quaint short lines of Georgia. Good to hear from you.
> Conrad Cheatham, formerly of Louisville, GA
>
>
>
>
> From: Simon <simon_dunkley@...>
> To: mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 4:31 PM
> Subject: [GaRRHistory] Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
>
>
>
> Evening everyone,
>
> Time for another Englishman to say hello - I am only about 90 minutes from Brian Tovey, as it turns out, but further East.
>
> I am also likely to ask a lot of questions - the subject line is how a VP of an American software firm once described me, but it was taken in the good humour it was made.
>
> Anyway, unlike Brian, I don't model in Proto:48, but S scale but to Proto:64 standards. I have done this with (mostly!) British outline for the past thirty years plus, at rates of productivity downwards from low, and frankly needed a change. I also was honest with myself about my love of Central of Georgia-owned short lines and also "Russian" decapods! I have already accumulated a shelf full of suitable (and sometimes, slightly less suitable) kits and RTR, and have most of a UK single garage (maximum dimensions 17' long by 8'10" wide, with protrusions into the latter) at my disposal.
>
> Although I do indeed have lots and lots of questions, I will restrain myself to three:
>
> 1) I have the Model Railroader Drawing of SC 103/CG 403, but wondered if there are any drawings of the ten-wheelers used on the WT, WS and L&W?
>
> 2) Is anyone aware of any drawings for the "Jim Crow" combines used in the late 1940s on any of these lines?
>
> 3) Finally, I am trying to find details of tie spacing for these lines during the late 1940s. I imagine that as well as having lighter rail than mainlines, the ties would be spaced further apart than on mainlines, and might even pre-date the various standards of ARA/AAR/AREMA? Plain track and points (turnouts, if you prefer) if possible.
>
> I joined the CofGRHS, and must say I am impressed with "The Right Way": very high quality of content and presentation.
>
> Toodle pip!
>
> Simon Dunkley,
> Oakham, Rutland, UK
>

simon_dunkley@...
 

Hi Conrad,

That is incredibly useful. I presume the valuation was part of the
USRA? It would be interesting to see how things changed over the years
- was any similar valuation exercise carried out in the 40s, for
example?

2,800 ties/mile equates to a spacing of roughly 22.5" (22 and 5/8" to
be more precise) which is exactly what I wanted to know. I imagine that
it might have been a bit more than that on spurs and sidings. Not sure
I would class "earth" as ballast, but it was a short line and that is
certainly part of the charm.

Intrigued about the traffic carried, in that there is no mention of
coal. Have noticed in photos from the 40s and 50s that oil tankers are
present in many trains, but not hoppers. Presumably the tankers were
carrying gasoline and diesel? What was the domestic fuel for cooking
and heating? Wood? Electricity?

Thanks again,

Simon

----Original Message----
From: okete12000@...
Date: Apr 15, 2013 16:32
To: "GaRRHistory@..."<GaRRHistory@...>
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of
questions


Hi: For those looking for info on the Wadley Southern: I found the
summary report from the Valuation done on the WS in the 1917 era. For
our across the Pond friends. Our government required railroads to
undergo an examination for valuation purposes. The W.S. report notes
that it had 2,800 ties/mile. 87% of these ties were pine. Most of the
rest were cypress with a few oak ties. Trestles: There were 136
timber trestles - totalling 6,057 feet long. Rail: Rail was 40-60
lb weight dating from 1877-1902. The mainline had 26.4 miles of new
rail - 56 & 60 lb. The remainder is laid with re-lay rail, 55-63 lb.
Ballast: There was a small amount of cinder ballast. Most earthen
ballast. Road had 8 passenger cars of wood construction. It had 5
locomotives. Cotton and corn were the main agricultural crops of the
region. Main freight hauled was cotton. lumber, and naval stores. It
was noted that the timber had been heavily cut. Keep in mind that
this is roughly 1917 & the W.S. had been put together in 1906 when the
Central purchased the Stillmore Air Line and the Wadley & Mount Vernon
Railroads. This is a rough picture of the W.S. from about 1917-18.
Conrad Cheatham

Robert Hanson
 

The valuation was ordered by the Interstate Commerce Commission some time around 1916.  They did this because some railroads were issuing securities, notably bonds, that were far out of proportion the the value of the property securing the issue.  Example, a 10-mile short line issuing $10 million in bonds, obviously far in excess of the 1910 value of the property and all its assets.

The ICC ordered this to put a stop to such practices.  I understand that the full valuation files are a gold mine of information, containing detailed maps and photographs of structures, equipment, etc.

The maps (called "Val Maps" - the Val being short for Valuation) were updated from time to time and were used for decades.  I have several, mostly from the Georgia Railroad and Central of Georgia railroads, and they show each plot of land, when it was acquired, and from whom.

Hoppers were very much in the consists of freight trains in the 1950's, hauling gravel, coal, and occasionally sand.  I can recall seeing them (as a child) come into Monroe, GA, on the Georgia Railroad with coal.  The companies that used sand usually received it in high-side gondolas although companies that used larger quantities did receive it in hoppers.

Most of my friends homes were heated by gas, although a few used fuel oil and coal.  Most used gas and electricity for cooking.

That was the norm in Walton County, Georgia, at that time, anyway.

Others can jump in with the situation in other areas.

Bob Hanson
Loganville, GA


From: simon_dunkley
To: GaRRHistory
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions

 
Hi Conrad,

That is incredibly useful. I presume the valuation was part of the
USRA? It would be interesting to see how things changed over the years
- was any similar valuation exercise carried out in the 40s, for
example?

2,800 ties/mile equates to a spacing of roughly 22.5" (22 and 5/8" to
be more precise) which is exactly what I wanted to know. I imagine that
it might have been a bit more than that on spurs and sidings. Not sure
I would class "earth" as ballast, but it was a short line and that is
certainly part of the charm.

Intrigued about the traffic carried, in that there is no mention of
coal. Have noticed in photos from the 40s and 50s that oil tankers are
present in many trains, but not hoppers. Presumably the tankers were
carrying gasoline and diesel? What was the domestic fuel for cooking
and heating? Wood? Electricity?

Thanks again,

Simon

----Original Message----
From: okete12000@...
Date: Apr 15, 2013 16:32
To: "GaRRHistory@..."<GaRRHistory@...>
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of
questions

Hi: For those looking for info on the Wadley Southern: I found the
summary report from the Valuation done on the WS in the 1917 era. For
our across the Pond friends. Our government required railroads to
undergo an examination for valuation purposes. The W.S. report notes
that it had 2,800 ties/mile. 87% of these ties were pine. Most of the
rest were cypress with a few oak ties. Trestles: There were 136
timber trestles - totalling 6,057 feet long. Rail: Rail was 40-60
lb weight dating from 1877-1902. The mainline had 26.4 miles of new
rail - 56 & 60 lb. The remainder is laid with re-lay rail, 55-63 lb.
Ballast: There was a small amount of cinder ballast. Most earthen
ballast. Road had 8 passenger cars of wood construction. It had 5
locomotives. Cotton and corn were the main agricultural crops of the
region. Main freight hauled was cotton. lumber, and naval stores. It
was noted that the timber had been heavily cut. Keep in mind that
this is roughly 1917 & the W.S. had been put together in 1906 when the
Central purchased the Stillmore Air Line and the Wadley & Mount Vernon
Railroads. This is a rough picture of the W.S. from about 1917-18.
Conrad Cheatham

Conrad Cheatham
 

Simon,
   The valuation stuff was a one-time thing as far as I know. These reports were collected together years later. I have seen them bound in volumes in a few libraries. I was able to photo-copy a number of these at the library of Emory University near Atlanta., GA
   The Central probably improved the W.S. some over the years, but I doubt it was a great deal. The W.S. was a means of transportation for a number of years before roads were paved. As the roads were improved buses, trucks, & autos captured most of the business.
   Pulpwood became a major commodity. Cotton was a major commodity over the years in that part of Georgia. Cotton produced a variety of things including cotton seed oil.
   For awhile in the 1920s the Central operated a highway bus along the route of the W.S.
    The Depression of the 1930s changed a number of things.
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
   Conrad

From: "simon_dunkley@..."
To: GaRRHistory@...
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
 
Hi Conrad,

That is incredibly useful. I presume the valuation was part of the
USRA? It would be interesting to see how things changed over the years
- was any similar valuation exercise carried out in the 40s, for
example?

2,800 ties/mile equates to a spacing of roughly 22.5" (22 and 5/8" to
be more precise) which is exactly what I wanted to know. I imagine that
it might have been a bit more than that on spurs and sidings. Not sure
I would class "earth" as ballast, but it was a short line and that is
certainly part of the charm.

Intrigued about the traffic carried, in that there is no mention of
coal. Have noticed in photos from the 40s and 50s that oil tankers are
present in many trains, but not hoppers. Presumably the tankers were
carrying gasoline and diesel? What was the domestic fuel for cooking
and heating? Wood? Electricity?

Thanks again,

Simon

----Original Message----
From: mailto:okete12000%40yahoo.com
Date: Apr 15, 2013 16:32
To: "mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com"<mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of
questions

Hi: For those looking for info on the Wadley Southern: I found the
summary report from the Valuation done on the WS in the 1917 era. For
our across the Pond friends. Our government required railroads to
undergo an examination for valuation purposes. The W.S. report notes
that it had 2,800 ties/mile. 87% of these ties were pine. Most of the
rest were cypress with a few oak ties. Trestles: There were 136
timber trestles - totalling 6,057 feet long. Rail: Rail was 40-60
lb weight dating from 1877-1902. The mainline had 26.4 miles of new
rail - 56 & 60 lb. The remainder is laid with re-lay rail, 55-63 lb.
Ballast: There was a small amount of cinder ballast. Most earthen
ballast. Road had 8 passenger cars of wood construction. It had 5
locomotives. Cotton and corn were the main agricultural crops of the
region. Main freight hauled was cotton. lumber, and naval stores. It
was noted that the timber had been heavily cut. Keep in mind that
this is roughly 1917 & the W.S. had been put together in 1906 when the
Central purchased the Stillmore Air Line and the Wadley & Mount Vernon
Railroads. This is a rough picture of the W.S. from about 1917-18.
Conrad Cheatham

Robert Hanson
 

It was, indeed, a one-time thing.  Some of the valuations were not decided until the late 1920's and many decisions were bitterly protested by the railroads involved as they limited the amount of securities they could issue.

Bob Hanson




From: YAHOO!! Service
To: GaRRHistory
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 12:53 pm
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions

 
Simon,
   The valuation stuff was a one-time thing as far as I know. These reports were collected together years later. I have seen them bound in volumes in a few libraries. I was able to photo-copy a number of these at the library of Emory University near Atlanta., GA
   The Central probably improved the W.S. some over the years, but I doubt it was a great deal. The W.S. was a means of transportation for a number of years before roads were paved. As the roads were improved buses, trucks, & autos captured most of the business.
   Pulpwood became a major commodity. Cotton was a major commodity over the years in that part of Georgia. Cotton produced a variety of things including cotton seed oil.
   For awhile in the 1920s the Central operated a highway bus along the route of the W.S.
    The Depression of the 1930s changed a number of things.
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
   Conrad

From: "simon_dunkley@..." <simon_dunkley@...>
To: GaRRHistory@...
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
 
Hi Conrad,

That is incredibly useful. I presume the valuation was part of the
USRA? It would be interesting to see how things changed over the years
- was any similar valuation exercise carried out in the 40s, for
example?

2,800 ties/mile equates to a spacing of roughly 22.5" (22 and 5/8" to
be more precise) which is exactly what I wanted to know. I imagine that
it might have been a bit more than that on spurs and sidings. Not sure
I would class "earth" as ballast, but it was a short line and that is
certainly part of the charm.

Intrigued about the traffic carried, in that there is no mention of
coal. Have noticed in photos from the 40s and 50s that oil tankers are
present in many trains, but not hoppers. Presumably the tankers were
carrying gasoline and diesel? What was the domestic fuel for cooking
and heating? Wood? Electricity?

Thanks again,

Simon

----Original Message----
From: mailto:okete12000%40yahoo.com
Date: Apr 15, 2013 16:32
To: "mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com"<mailto:GaRRHistory%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of
questions

Hi: For those looking for info on the Wadley Southern: I found the
summary report from the Valuation done on the WS in the 1917 era. For
our across the Pond friends. Our government required railroads to
undergo an examination for valuation purposes. The W.S. report notes
that it had 2,800 ties/mile. 87% of these ties were pine. Most of the
rest were cypress with a few oak ties. Trestles: There were 136
timber trestles - totalling 6,057 feet long. Rail: Rail was 40-60
lb weight dating from 1877-1902. The mainline had 26.4 miles of new
rail - 56 & 60 lb. The remainder is laid with re-lay rail, 55-63 lb.
Ballast: There was a small amount of cinder ballast. Most earthen
ballast. Road had 8 passenger cars of wood construction. It had 5
locomotives. Cotton and corn were the main agricultural crops of the
region. Main freight hauled was cotton. lumber, and naval stores. It
was noted that the timber had been heavily cut. Keep in mind that
this is roughly 1917 & the W.S. had been put together in 1906 when the
Central purchased the Stillmore Air Line and the Wadley & Mount Vernon
Railroads. This is a rough picture of the W.S. from about 1917-18.
Conrad Cheatham

Simon Dunkley <simon_dunkley@...>
 

Guys,

This is great information!

Conrad wrote:
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
"Products of mines" seems a bit vague. Stone? Sand? Coal?

Bob wrote:

The valuation was ordered by the Interstate Commerce Commission some time around 1916.  They did this because some railroads were issuing securities, notably bonds, that were far out of proportion the the value of the property securing the issue.  Example, a 10-mile short line issuing $10 million in bonds, obviously far in excess of the 1910 value of the property and all its assets.

Nothing changes, eh?

Hoppers were very much in the consists of freight trains in the 1950's, hauling gravel, coal, and occasionally sand.  I can recall seeing them (as a child) come into Monroe, GA, on the Georgia Railroad with coal.

Sorry, I wasn't totally clear. I was referring to the various short lines: hoppers seem to be rarer. I note also that at Louisville there was a trestle, presumably for coal, but this wasn't present in the 50s. Was this a change in fuel distribution/use?

 The companies that used sand usually received it in high-side gondolas although companies that used larger quantities did receive it in hoppers.
Flat-bottomed, general service gons, or hopper bottom?

Most of my friends homes were heated by gas, although a few used fuel oil and coal.  Most used gas and electricity for cooking.

When you say gas, do you mean gaseous hydrocarbons out of the ground, from coking coal, or (probably not) gasoline?

Just checking that we are not separated by a common language!

Simon

Frank Greene
 

On 4/15/2013 2:07 PM, Simon Dunkley wrote:
Guys,

This is great information!

Conrad wrote:
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
"Products of mines" seems a bit vague. Stone? Sand? Coal?


In that part of Jawga', it was either sand or Kaolin.

 
Bob wrote:

The valuation was ordered by the Interstate Commerce Commission some time around 1916.  They did this because some railroads were issuing securities, notably bonds, that were far out of proportion the the value of the property securing the issue.  Example, a 10-mile short line issuing $10 million in bonds, obviously far in excess of the 1910 value of the property and all its assets.

Nothing changes, eh?


Nothing changes.  In my college days, e.g., 1970s, they taught us the evils of robber barons and their wicked ways.  I went to the library and checked out the newly published "Wreck of the Penn Central".  Someone learned the lessons well.  Then my generation took the same lessons and brought you greatly improved scandals like Enron, Bernie Madoff, etc.  I can only imagine what scandal today's college student will dream up :-(



Hoppers were very much in the consists of freight trains in the 1950's, hauling gravel, coal, and occasionally sand.  I can recall seeing them (as a child) come into Monroe, GA, on the Georgia Railroad with coal.

Sorry, I wasn't totally clear. I was referring to the various short lines: hoppers seem to be rarer. I note also that at Louisville there was a trestle, presumably for coal, but this wasn't present in the 50s. Was this a change in fuel distribution/use?

 The companies that used sand usually received it in high-side gondolas although companies that used larger quantities did receive it in hoppers.
Flat-bottomed, general service gons, or hopper bottom?


The Southern Railway, SAL and ACL used low-side, solid bottom gondolas to haul sand.



Most of my friends homes were heated by gas, although a few used fuel oil and coal.  Most used gas and electricity for cooking.

When you say gas, do you mean gaseous hydrocarbons out of the ground, from coking coal, or (probably not) gasoline?


Natural gas piped into the home in larger towns, propane or LP delivered by truck in smaller towns and rural areas.



Just checking that we are not separated by a common language!

Simon


-- 

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN

Conrad Cheatham
 

Frank,
  I think the WS was out of the Kaolin territory. Billy Gibson used to say if he could  find kaolin on the Louisville & Wadley territory he could retire as a millionaire. He tried to find it.
   Conrad

From: Frank Greene
To: GaRRHistory@...
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions
 
On 4/15/2013 2:07 PM, Simon Dunkley wrote:
Guys,

This is great information!

Conrad wrote:
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
"Products of mines" seems a bit vague. Stone? Sand? Coal?
In that part of Jawga', it was either sand or Kaolin. 
Bob wrote:
The valuation was ordered by the Interstate Commerce Commission some time around 1916.  They did this because some railroads were issuing securities, notably bonds, that were far out of proportion the the value of the property securing the issue.  Example, a 10-mile short line issuing $10 million in bonds, obviously far in excess of the 1910 value of the property and all its assets.
Nothing changes, eh?
Nothing changes.  In my college days, e.g., 1970s, they taught us the evils of robber barons and their wicked ways.  I went to the library and checked out the newly published "Wreck of the Penn Central".  Someone learned the lessons well.  Then my generation took the same lessons and brought you greatly improved scandals like Enron, Bernie Madoff, etc.  I can only imagine what scandal today's college student will dream up :-(
Hoppers were very much in the consists of freight trains in the 1950's, hauling gravel, coal, and occasionally sand.  I can recall seeing them (as a child) come into Monroe, GA, on the Georgia Railroad with coal.

Sorry, I wasn't totally clear. I was referring to the various short lines: hoppers seem to be rarer. I note also that at Louisville there was a trestle, presumably for coal, but this wasn't present in the 50s. Was this a change in fuel distribution/use?

 The companies that used sand usually received it in high-side gondolas although companies that used larger quantities did receive it in hoppers.
Flat-bottomed, general service gons, or hopper bottom?
The Southern Railway, SAL and ACL used low-side, solid bottom gondolas to haul sand.

Most of my friends homes were heated by gas, although a few used fuel oil and coal.  Most used gas and electricity for cooking.

When you say gas, do you mean gaseous hydrocarbons out of the ground, from coking coal, or (probably not) gasoline?
Natural gas piped into the home in larger towns, propane or LP delivered by truck in smaller towns and rural areas.

Just checking that we are not separated by a common language!

Simon
--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN

Frank Greene
 

After the initial valuations 1916-1918, which were foot-by-foot, building-by-building, car and locomotive-by-car and locomotive, etc., the RRs filed annual reports to the ICC to add or remove equipment, structures, track, etc.  The point being the valuation was not a one-time deal, it was perpetual.  The valuation was used to support rate changes.


On 4/15/2013 12:00 PM, Robert Hanson wrote:

It was, indeed, a one-time thing.  Some of the valuations were not decided until the late 1920's and many decisions were bitterly protested by the railroads involved as they limited the amount of securities they could issue.

Bob Hanson

-- 

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN

Robert Hanson
 

Someone (Mark Twain?) once said that the US and England were two nations divided by a common language.

Products of mines would be any mineral or solid fuel, in this case probably coal (inbound,) sand, gravel, and kaolin (maybe - that might have been discovered later, but I don't know.)

The gons I wrote of earlier were solid-bottom cars and were unloaded by several men with shovels, labor being remarkably cheap in those days (and headed back that way, today, apparently.)

By gas, I mean natural gas, as was piped into homes, not gasoline.

A small number of homes and businesses were still heated by coal, as was my school for the first few years I attended.  Then a new school was built that was heated by gas. (Gaseous hydrocarbon, not gasoline.)  Remember, this was Loganville, GA, population, in 1950, about 650. but I suppose the same could be said for any small Georgia town in the same era.

Hope I've answered some of your questions.

Bob Hanson


From: Simon Dunkley To: GaRRHistory
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 3:07 pm
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions

 
Guys,

This is great information!

Conrad wrote:
     Digging deeper I found some stuff from when the WS below Swainsboro was abandoned. Classification of freight carried in 1927: 31.05% was manufactures - mostly fertilizers (16,241 tons), 26.33% forest products, 20.39% products of mines, 12.33% products of agriculture, 0.95% products of animals, 8.95% miscellanuous. Total was 85,921 tons.
"Products of mines" seems a bit vague. Stone? Sand? Coal?

Bob wrote:
The valuation was ordered by the Interstate Commerce Commission some time around 1916.  They did this because some railroads were issuing securities, notably bonds, that were far out of proportion the the value of the property securing the issue.  Example, a 10-mile short line issuing $10 million in bonds, obviously far in excess of the 1910 value of the property and all its assets.
Nothing changes, eh?

Hoppers were very much in the consists of freight trains in the 1950's, hauling gravel, coal, and occasionally sand.  I can recall seeing them (as a child) come into Monroe, GA, on the Georgia Railroad with coal.

Sorry, I wasn't totally clear. I was referring to the various short lines: hoppers seem to be rarer. I note also that at Louisville there was a trestle, presumably for coal, but this wasn't present in the 50s. Was this a change in fuel distribution/use?

 The companies that used sand usually received it in high-side gondolas although companies that used larger quantities did receive it in hoppers.
Flat-bottomed, general service gons, or hopper bottom?

Most of my friends homes were heated by gas, although a few used fuel oil and coal.  Most used gas and electricity for cooking.

When you say gas, do you mean gaseous hydrocarbons out of the ground, from coking coal, or (probably not) gasoline?

Just checking that we are not separated by a common language!

Simon

Robert Hanson
 

I stand corrected on that point.

I do know that one of the reasons for the undertaking was to limit the amount of bonds that a company could issue on the property, as well as the rate aspect.

I had forgotten about that.

Been a long time since I stood for the ICC Practitioner's exam and I've forgotten some of it.

Bob Hanson


From: Frank Greene
To: GaRRHistory <GaRRHistory@...>
Sent: Mon, Apr 15, 2013 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [GaRRHistory] Re: Another pesky Brit with lots of questions

 
After the initial valuations 1916-1918, which were foot-by-foot, building-by-building, car and locomotive-by-car and locomotive, etc., the RRs filed annual reports to the ICC to add or remove equipment, structures, track, etc.  The point being the valuation was not a one-time deal, it was perpetual.  The valuation was used to support rate changes.


On 4/15/2013 12:00 PM, Robert Hanson wrote:

It was, indeed, a one-time thing.  Some of the valuations were not decided until the late 1920's and many decisions were bitterly protested by the railroads involved as they limited the amount of securities they could issue.

Bob Hanson

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN